Carriers

[poocow]

Given the change of Import rules bringing in clear dogs is also going to become a big challenge.

HUH?! How do the import rules have anything to do with bringing in clear dogs?

As Eishund has said I wouldn't be throwing the baby out with the bathwater when consdering breeding MDR1 carriers, its just a gene mutation. Its about informing new owners about what products are safe to use and what are on the no-no list. Even carriers can become symptomatic when given ivermectin based drugs. My Aussie is a carrier for MDR1 and as a precaution I don't give him anything containing ivermectin, better safe than sorry.

[Bilbo Baggins]

Given the change of Import rules bringing in clear dogs is also going to become a big challenge.

HUH?! How do the import rules have anything to do with bringing in clear dogs?

As Eishund has said I wouldn't be throwing the baby out with the bathwater when consdering breeding MDR1 carriers, its just a gene mutation. Its about informing new owners about what products are safe to use and what are on the no-no list. Even carriers can become symptomatic when given ivermectin based drugs. My Aussie is a carrier for MDR1 and as a precaution I don't give him anything containing ivermectin, better safe than sorry.

What I meant about bringing in dogs was that its going to take longer and they are going to older and thus more expensive and this will put people off.

[EISHUND]

Given the change of Import rules bringing in clear dogs is also going to become a big challenge.

HUH?! How do the import rules have anything to do with bringing in clear dogs?

As Eishund has said I wouldn't be throwing the baby out with the bathwater when consdering breeding MDR1 carriers, its just a gene mutation. Its about informing new owners about what products are safe to use and what are on the no-no list. Even carriers can become symptomatic when given ivermectin based drugs. My Aussie is a carrier for MDR1 and as a precaution I don't give him anything containing ivermectin, better safe than sorry.

What I meant about bringing in dogs was that its going to take longer and they are going to older and thus more expensive and this will put people off.

What new rule are you talking about? What, that Sweden is changing to a Cat4. How is one extra country going to put people off importing? You either want to, or you don't! Expense certainly didn't play any part in my choice to import from Sweden, I had other reasons.

[EISHUND]

Ooops I am sorry there are 3 clear males and 3 clear females currently in the breeding pool.

There could be more but not hip and elbow scored yet.

I am not denigrating the White Swiss Shepherds just pointing out the unfortunate situation of the imported dogs over the unrecognised clear local dogs.

No I do not currently own an ANKC WSS but that does not stop me being interested in the breed.

The aim of any breeding program is to test and hopefully weed out the carriers so all future generations are clear.

When the gene pool is so small and its infested with carriers then its going to take a considerable amount of time to achieve clear status.

Given the change of Import rules bringing in clear dogs is also going to become a big challenge.

: Oh....my....god. There you go again, quoting alleged numbers of clear & carrier dogs. And yet again, the figures you have given are WRONG. You clearly do not have the intimate knowledge of the breed you claim to have, so perhaps refrain from quoting breed statistics until you do your research!!! If you are so interested in the breed, then I encourage you to learn more, and If I can help, I'm more than happy to do so as it's obvious you need assistance.

And how many of the unrecognised local lines have been tested? A small handful yes? Therefore, how can one claim that the entire Australian genepool is clear when only minimal testing has been done. Wild, uneducated & unsupported claims such as that worry me! I can assure you, there is a lot more to be concerned about in the local lines than MDR1 in the imported lines!

MDR1 is NOT A DISEASE, what part of that are you not understanding. What do you mean 'given the change of import rules bringing in clear dogs is also going to be an issue?' I highly doubt any type of restriction would be placed on the importation of a dog with a mutated gene that is not a health issue. Is that what you are implying?

The aim of any testing in a breeding program is for it to be used as a tool to ensure AFFECTED dogs are not produced. The aim of testing is so carriers CAN be used effectively without limiting the genepool. With a severe health issue, yes, breeders can use it to weed out carriers if they wish, but MDR1 can NOT be compared with diseases. It's a healthy dog, always will be!

No MDR1 is not a disease but an affected dog will die if given the wrong medication.

Given the amount of carriers in the breed the only way you could stop an affected dog being produced would be to paediatricly desex all carriers and sell as pets. Keeping clear for breeding. This would then prevent an affected being produced 2 generations done the track. Because you can not control second and third generations.

Some great points made by other posters

Bilbo, There are many things you can give any healthy dog & it will die if administered incorrectly.

It's about being responsible & informing owners about the breed correctly.

What about Collies, Aussie Shepherds etc. A study I read in the USA claimed that as little as only 25% of the Collie breed was clear of this mutation. It's not a concern, it's just common knowledge they sensitive to certain drugs. Or do you think all of this breed should be desexed & placed into pet homes too

Just as some breeds are suseptible to bloat, or heat stress, conditions that are not diseases, MDR1 to me is comparable to that.

As i said, do some research as your claims are unfounded & unbelievable. Leave it to those involved in & that 'know' the breed to publically quote breed statistics in Australia. ;)

[EISHUND]

I was having a chat about this issue with a friend of mine who is very passionate about this subject, and I have been given permission to share their thoughts here:

Sandra is right Buddy, the important thing to keep at the forefront of your mind is – breeding with carriers strictly depends on what disease or mutation you are referring to.

Underfoot is also right, you always breed to improve the breed. What everyone have to remember is that each and every dog is a carrier of several diseases (statistically, this is approximately 8 diseases per dog).

With each dog being carriers of several diseases, we know that the chance of the dogs producing problems in puppies will ALWAYS exist, no matter what we do. Until we map the entire canine genome, we cannot wave our magic wands and put an end to health problems – even if we take the “throwing the baby out with the bathwater” approach and wipe out known “carriers” from the gene pool. Bilbo Baggins is saying that you shouldn’t breed with carriers, no matter what, but considering ALL dogs are carriers of several genetic issues, are we not to breed ANY dogs at all? This approach is not going to result in anything, except a canine holocaust.

Remember, “carrier” does NOT mean “affected”, so plenty of healthy dogs are produced out of carriers, who are not affected or carriers themselves. A lot of the time, affected dogs are a result of not enough 1. Honesty, 2. research and 3. Knowledge, resulting in combined blood lines with same diseases, in turn producing affected offspring.

If breeders genuinely care about the health of their breed and keeping high ethical standards, they MUST do significant research of the diseases, the bloodlines, the genetics and mode of inheritance (whether polygenetic, autosomal recessive) and how to combine all of this to breed healthier dogs.

List your breed-specific diseases. Know them and research them and the bloodlines as mentioned above.

- Epilepsy

- DM

- MDRI

- PRA

- EIC

- Orthopaedic issues; hip/elbow dysplasia

- Reproductive issues or abnormalities

- Other things like eye, heart, pancreas, liver related problems etc

Serious breeders will take advantage of the DNA testing on particular diseases to really know their bloodlines. This DNA knowledge, combined with significant research, results in wiser decisions. We have the technology... why not use it to our advantage to help the breed and for the greater good of the health of our blood lines?

I have known breeders take informed, but careful risks in breeding (some slightly risky and others more serious risks) and the results in progeny have been very successful. As a result, the gene pool has expanded substantially, quality has improved and most importantly - some issues bred out of the lines altogether. Though this can only be managed through managing breeding priorities and ethics, careful tracking and statistical research and ongoing dedication from the breeder. If you are going to do it, why not do it properly?

Each and every responsible breeder should take health very seriously. It’s an obligation to the dogs you are producing and your chosen breed as a whole.

What everyone has to understand, is that it ALL starts with knowing your breed’s hereditary diseases and how it all works. It’s of paramount importance that the community be upfront about these health issues in their lines. We must get rid of the stigma attached with the way people bad-mouth other breeders about the problems their dogs have produced , and start working together to improve the health of the breed. All that has to be put aside if we really want to do the best for the breeds we love. The approach has to change and an open registry should be created where people can report and track issues. This way, when passionate newbies come along, they have the research at the tips of their fingers, without having to get in the right circles to discover important information.

The next stage is keeping track of all progeny and descendants, because sometimes there isn’t any DNA testing or way to know that your line is carrying something. You won’t know your line carries something until later down the line, it has been bred to another line who is also a carrier of a specific disease.

Every single time we breed our dogs, we take a risk anyway. Why not make it an informed and strategic one?

I suggest people who really want to know more about diseases, carriers, breeding healthier dogs and genetics, read Dr George Padget’s book “Control of Canine Genetic Disease” and Google his name to find some extremely interesting and useful articles.

[Bilbo Baggins]

I did not say not to breed with carriers.

Rather its really sad that carrier/affected status has been brought in by imported dogs and you will have no control over future generations and the carrier/affected status will expand across population.

[Steve]

The fact that you know its here, that its a simple recessive and that there IS a DNA test for it is a good thing. If you didnt know it was here you may overlook it altogether assume its not and dont test for it. It means every single dog used for breeding can have its status known for this particular issue.Breeders can make well informed decisions based on what the goal is for their litter and pet owners can opt to have a test to determine if their dogs are affected or treat them as if they are "in case" Hopefully in a few generations by using carriers now and creating more clear options the whole thing can be eliminated. At the end of the day breeders have the say on what dogs go out with main or limited papers as well. This particular issue in the big scheme of things is no big deal and its very possible for someone who wants to target this and nothing else could eliminate it from their own dogs in pretty short time.

Completely different set of circumstances to some dseases and some breeds especially considering the current gene pool is so limited.

No breeder should consider mating two dogs without an understanding of what they are aming for and what they may need to compromise on to get that.

Some breeders will consider it impossible for them to breed a carrier because above all else the elimination of that gene from their dogs is their goal - a carrier will be overlooked no matter how great he is in other areas.

Another breeder will consider its more important to develop more genetic diversity without concern for anyting else and breed any different combination of pedigrees they can and over look how great the dog is in other areas. This one appears to be how the purebred dog world is going with the introduction of a ban on close relative matings and calls for opening the stud books.

Others will want dogs which represent the breed standard and over look the need for diversity or removal of the gene from their dogs. Others decide that Hip scores/elbow patella are more important than anything else.

Which one is right? They all think they are doing whats best for the dogs and the breed.In this case they have the luxury of being able to make the decisions with relatively minor negative consequences as long as they know the breed is suseptible to this condition and the owners are aware of it.

In the big picture the more diversity of goals you get over time the better it is for the breed because it gives each breeder with each different goal the ability to change goals or move onto the next challenge and have a wider and greater choice in which dogs to use to get there as more genetic and health issues come up in the future.

Traditionally a group of people with good intensions for the breed decide on what is best and they give those who want to have different goals a bit of a hard time.At the end of the day as long as the breeder is making choices based on what they think is best for the breed and they are not just breeding what is convenient or without understanding the goal and the possible consequences its all good for the breed - better for the breed.Its more complicated now than it ever has been before because the science gives us more tools and more potential things we could or shouldnt work toward.If everyone just decided to not breed carriers we would end up with dogs clear of this issue but butt ugly and no longer as predictible in other areas - which basically is what determines a purebred - the breed - in the first place.

If every breeder in the country compromises on the same things to get the same goal the danger later down the track is dogs with the same problems and no where to go. As long as its only this one and nothing mutates or there is nothing else in there which isnt showing yet it seems to be an easy choice but in breeding dogs nothing is ever as easy as it seems.

[EISHUND]

Bilbo Baggins: I think you are getting your wires crossed..... MDR1 “AFFECTED” status has NOT been brought in by the imported WSS gene pool. CARRIERS have been imported, and this was only discovered after they were already here and after the more information about the mutation was made available. There have been no WSS’s who have an “AFFECTED” status.

Yes, there are MDR1 carriers in the ANKC Reg’d WSS genepool, but did you know that there are ALSO carriers in the Australian white lines (unreg’d)??? Please stop making out like the WSS imports only have this genetic mutation, when they don’t, because the local lines do too. Please do more research on the bloodlines before making statements that are waaaaaay off.

Up until a few years ago, it was not reported in the WSS/WS breed. No dog was even tested for it here. That does not mean to say all dogs were CLEAR. One should NEVER assume. Only when the European breeders start testing for it and found the problem, did Australian and American breeders follow suit.

Look at ALL the Australian unreg’d breeders..... Make a tally of what breeders HAVE tested & cleared their bloodlines and which ones haven’t. You will find that only a small percentage have tested and cleared it from their lines.

One unreg’d Australian breeder, used a carrier with an untested local bitch. These resulting puppies went to several other breeders who use these pups in the breeding program. One of them who has been tested, is a carrier. Most still haven’t even been tested, so who knows what their status really is???

At least with the ANKC WSS dogs, ALL of the litters bred have been from MDR1 tested breeding stock, whereas the majority of unreg’d Australian breeders haven’t even tested their dogs – even though they use lines with known carriers!

No good breeder would breed two carriers together, but given the numbers of untested unreg’d Australian dogs, there is MORE CHANCE of an unregistered Australian breeder breeding two carriers together and not even knowing it, because so many do not test for it.

It’s all about being responsible, doing the DNA testing and avoiding issues. That way, you 100% stay clear of producing any affected dogs.... So no, Bilbo Baggins, MDR1 CANNOT possibly spread into future generations, when WSS breeders here are testing for it and avoiding producing affected dogs.

(Edit for type)

Edited November 9, 2011 by EISHUND

[Lowenhart]

I did not say not to breed with carriers.

Rather its really sad that carrier/affected status has been brought in by imported dogs and you will have no control over future generations and the carrier/affected status will expand across population.

Um no.

You put forward that the majority of the population in Australia was already falling in the carrier/affected status. (This was disputed) So taking it from your perspective that there are already so many of them, bringing in a carrier dog from overseas does not expand the gene through the population. It does not lessen it, but it does not increase it either.

The mutation is multidrug sensitivity which is managable. It does not cause pain or discomfort and it does not affect quality of life other than they can not have ivermectin or loperamide. Not ideal but managable.

Carrier dogs bred to carrier dogs can produce clear offspring. Careful selection of the offspring for breed type, temperament, overall health and DNA status can bring about clear status dogs that are typey, healthy and not excessively interrelated.

[Saffioraire]

If he is a carrier and has many other things to offer then I would use him to DNA tested clear bitches only.

I wouldn't say no I will not use him as he will not be affected and neither will his babies if the bitch is clear. You help expand the gene pool without producing affected dogs.

Unfortunately OSO there is 1 clear bitch in the country.

Really??? Because I know of at least two!! And several more on the way - all clear!

[Saffioraire]

Dex, I think if you believe that your dog is a fine example there is no harm in collecting semen or using him now or in the future with a clear bitch.

I have a dog and a bitch in my home, both MDR1 clear. As well as semen from 3 dogs all clear. HOWEVER I have chosen to use a carrier for my first litter, because I firmly believed he could provide me with what I was trying to achieve for my female's first litter, moreso than my other options. I will be having all breeding prospects MDR1 tested when they are DNA profiled, and decisions can be made there after. It is a simple process of common sense.

Considering the breed trend is to DNA profile it is scarcely more expensive, and no more trouble to test for everything at the same time. I would rather use a carrier of something like MDR1 or EIC than one of HD, UAP or other serious disease.

Despite a particular breeds smaller gene pool, the reality is it is not hard to find new bloodlines free of disease. I am always looking for a potential litter to import from eventually, and of the many matings I see plenty are of bloodlines not yet here, and they are free from all disease. In my search at least 75%+ of matings I looked at were to produce clear dogs with parets of A or B hips and 0 ED. My decision will actually be made VERY difficult from too much choice!

Bilbo I am interested to hear how the 'Changes to Importing Rules' will affect anything? What changes are you talking about??

There was a good thread Re. Arab horses and how natural selection allowed for a breeding group of 4 horses to found an entire population - DNA testing provides us with selection tools human interference removes. I think it is often forgotten that Australia is an island, with it's only "native" canine being the Dingo. So everyone's breed has been founded entirely on imports - so far most of them seem to be doing alright I agree with not throwing the baby out with the bathwater, DNA testing is a brilliant tool we can use to strengthen genetic variation and breeding for 'better' overall without causing affected dogs to be produced.

[Moonlake]

Hi - I am a UK whippet breeder and would like to tap into the experience of people who routinely dna test for disease. We have always thought that whippets were free of inherited diseases although there is anecdotal evidence of heart and eye problems in some lines but recently, it has been discovered that whippets (in the UK at least), can carry the mutant gene that causes renal dysplasia, both in puppies and in older dogs. This is a dominant gene with incomplete penetrance which means that not every puppy in a litter will be affected but one with just one copy, i.e. a carrier, can be clinically affected but while it can die as a puppy (juvenile renal dysplasia), it might also not develop kidney disease until much later and after it has been bred from. Fortunately, there is a dna test, not breed specific, so that we can at least discover the status of our breeding stock and I am about to send off four swabs with some trepidation. I am familiar with the "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater" theory in relation to using carriers or even affected dogs but I have never read what you are supposed to do with puppies that test positive (in the case of rd, they only need one copy to be at risk but let us take the example of a recessive gene where they have two)? Do you sell puppies knowing they could die before the age of two with all the heartache that entails for the owner or do you euthanise them, knowing that the disease might not manifest itself until old age? Testing for disease is unfamiliar territory for us and I'd be grateful to know if there is some kind of protocol in dealing with it.

[murmarstaffs]

Health, Temperament, Type, Conformation etc, should be priorities, if we threw out every dog that carried a defective gene, well, we'd probably all be owning CATS!

hahahahahaha I just re homed my cat as my Staffords didnt approve.... no fluff balls here anymore.

eta: to add

On the other side of the fence, Bellas mother is a carrier but she wasnt tested before I brought her and when I found out I was not worried as I knew I would have to breed her with a clear male.

Ive had Bella tested and she is clear so I dont have to worry about it at all now.

Im glad the testing is available as it was alot of stress not knowing what her future held.

Edited November 17, 2011 by murmarstaffs

[Fanuilos]

Hi - I am a UK whippet breeder and would like to tap into the experience of people who routinely dna test for disease. We have always thought that whippets were free of inherited diseases although there is anecdotal evidence of heart and eye problems in some lines but recently, it has been discovered that whippets (in the UK at least), can carry the mutant gene that causes renal dysplasia, both in puppies and in older dogs. This is a dominant gene with incomplete penetrance which means that not every puppy in a litter will be affected but one with just one copy, i.e. a carrier, can be clinically affected but while it can die as a puppy (juvenile renal dysplasia), it might also not develop kidney disease until much later and after it has been bred from. Fortunately, there is a dna test, not breed specific, so that we can at least discover the status of our breeding stock and I am about to send off four swabs with some trepidation. I am familiar with the "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater" theory in relation to using carriers or even affected dogs but I have never read what you are supposed to do with puppies that test positive (in the case of rd, they only need one copy to be at risk but let us take the example of a recessive gene where they have two)? Do you sell puppies knowing they could die before the age of two with all the heartache that entails for the owner or do you euthanise them, knowing that the disease might not manifest itself until old age? Testing for disease is unfamiliar territory for us and I'd be grateful to know if there is some kind of protocol in dealing with it.

I wouldn't want to be in your position. Dealing with a recessive mode of inheritance is easy as you can still breed with carriers as long as you don't put two carriers together. Dealing with a dominant genetic mutation is so much harder as you can't put together a clear and a carrier and the pups will be okay.

Fingers crossed that your dogs are clear. The fact that the disease is possibly fatal, I would be trying to weed it out of the breed pool. There are very few diseases which are inherited in a dominant manner as nature tends to weed those out, very few of the animals end up reaching an age where they are bred from, so hopefully you only have a handful of individuals with the disease.

[LizT]

Hi - I am a UK whippet breeder and would like to tap into the experience of people who routinely dna test for disease. We have always thought that whippets were free of inherited diseases although there is anecdotal evidence of heart and eye problems in some lines but recently, it has been discovered that whippets (in the UK at least), can carry the mutant gene that causes renal dysplasia, both in puppies and in older dogs. This is a dominant gene with incomplete penetrance which means that not every puppy in a litter will be affected but one with just one copy, i.e. a carrier, can be clinically affected but while it can die as a puppy (juvenile renal dysplasia), it might also not develop kidney disease until much later and after it has been bred from. Fortunately, there is a dna test, not breed specific, so that we can at least discover the status of our breeding stock and I am about to send off four swabs with some trepidation. I am familiar with the "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater" theory in relation to using carriers or even affected dogs but I have never read what you are supposed to do with puppies that test positive (in the case of rd, they only need one copy to be at risk but let us take the example of a recessive gene where they have two)? Do you sell puppies knowing they could die before the age of two with all the heartache that entails for the owner or do you euthanise them, knowing that the disease might not manifest itself until old age? Testing for disease is unfamiliar territory for us and I'd be grateful to know if there is some kind of protocol in dealing with it.

Hi Moonlake and Welcome!

Perhaps you could start a thread with this Topic so as to catch the eye of more DOLers.

[OSoSwift]

I am interested to hear more about this Moonlake as I have Whippets myself. Including where you can send swabs to to get them tested.

[dancinbcs]

Hi - I am a UK whippet breeder and would like to tap into the experience of people who routinely dna test for disease. We have always thought that whippets were free of inherited diseases although there is anecdotal evidence of heart and eye problems in some lines but recently, it has been discovered that whippets (in the UK at least), can carry the mutant gene that causes renal dysplasia, both in puppies and in older dogs. This is a dominant gene with incomplete penetrance which means that not every puppy in a litter will be affected but one with just one copy, i.e. a carrier, can be clinically affected but while it can die as a puppy (juvenile renal dysplasia), it might also not develop kidney disease until much later and after it has been bred from. Fortunately, there is a dna test, not breed specific, so that we can at least discover the status of our breeding stock and I am about to send off four swabs with some trepidation. I am familiar with the "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater" theory in relation to using carriers or even affected dogs but I have never read what you are supposed to do with puppies that test positive (in the case of rd, they only need one copy to be at risk but let us take the example of a recessive gene where they have two)? Do you sell puppies knowing they could die before the age of two with all the heartache that entails for the owner or do you euthanise them, knowing that the disease might not manifest itself until old age? Testing for disease is unfamiliar territory for us and I'd be grateful to know if there is some kind of protocol in dealing with it.

The diseases my breed have DNA tests for are all recessive so breeding with carriers is not an issue because they will never be affected. It doesn't matter if there are carriers of recessive conditons in the gene pool for 20 more generations, so long as they are always bred to genetic normals, no affected puppies will be produced.

The story though with dominant genes is very different. Personally I would avoid breeding with any dog that is genetically affected by the condition. They are not "carriers" with a dominant gene but "affected", even if they show no clinical symptoms. If avoiding breeding from genetically affected dogs is not possible they should be bred to genetically normal partners and any gentically affected puppies euthanised. I would not take the chance on selling them and in fact in one state of Australia it would be illegal to sell them. Each puppy in the litter would have a 50% of being genetically normal and if you only keep genetically normal offspring from this mating then you get rid of the problem completely while keeping the line.

[Moonlake]

Hi - I am a UK whippet breeder and would like to tap into the experience of people who routinely dna test for disease. We have always thought that whippets were free of inherited diseases although there is anecdotal evidence of heart and eye problems in some lines but recently, it has been discovered that whippets (in the UK at least), can carry the mutant gene that causes renal dysplasia, both in puppies and in older dogs. This is a dominant gene with incomplete penetrance which means that not every puppy in a litter will be affected but one with just one copy, i.e. a carrier, can be clinically affected but while it can die as a puppy (juvenile renal dysplasia), it might also not develop kidney disease until much later and after it has been bred from. Fortunately, there is a dna test, not breed specific, so that we can at least discover the status of our breeding stock and I am about to send off four swabs with some trepidation. I am familiar with the "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater" theory in relation to using carriers or even affected dogs but I have never read what you are supposed to do with puppies that test positive (in the case of rd, they only need one copy to be at risk but let us take the example of a recessive gene where they have two)? Do you sell puppies knowing they could die before the age of two with all the heartache that entails for the owner or do you euthanise them, knowing that the disease might not manifest itself until old age? Testing for disease is unfamiliar territory for us and I'd be grateful to know if there is some kind of protocol in dealing with it.

The diseases my breed have DNA tests for are all recessive so breeding with carriers is not an issue because they will never be affected. It doesn't matter if there are carriers of recessive conditons in the gene pool for 20 more generations, so long as they are always bred to genetic normals, no affected puppies will be produced.

The story though with dominant genes is very different. Personally I would avoid breeding with any dog that is genetically affected by the condition. They are not "carriers" with a dominant gene but "affected", even if they show no clinical symptoms. If avoiding breeding from genetically affected dogs is not possible they should be bred to genetically normal partners and any gentically affected puppies euthanised. I would not take the chance on selling them and in fact in one state of Australia it would be illegal to sell them. Each puppy in the litter would have a 50% of being genetically normal and if you only keep genetically normal offspring from this mating then you get rid of the problem completely while keeping the line.

Thanks dancinbcs. I should have said that the incomplete penetrance is thought to be only 5% so the puppies with one or two copies of the mutant gene have, in theory, only a 5% chance of being affected, although this came to light when two puppies in a litter died of kidney failure and the parents were found to have three copies of the gene between them. I think I shall take the advice of LizT and start a new thread because I understand this affects many breeds, not just Lhasa Apsos and Shih Tzus as previously thought and there may be people already testing for this in Australia.