Tugging Troubleshooting

[Kavik]

Thought I'd see whether anyone was interested in discussing troubleshooting your dog's tugging with you.

Our tugging has progressed nicely - he will now tug at various times of the day, front or backyard, and I can have my treat bag or his favourite toy in a clear container on the ground and pick them up, take off lids, and he will still tug. Had one successful session of combining food and tug rewards in the same exercise, but haven't been able to repeat the success (he didn't want to tug after getting the food, required a bit of effort on my part to get him tugging again.)

My main issue continues to be two things which are linked - when he wins the tug I would like him to bring it straight back to me to continue the game. He tends to like to chew the tug, some more than others depending on the material, so getting him to stop chewing and getting him to retrieve still need improvement. I am trying the udder tugs atm - like this but no fringie bits http://www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=3018 but also sometimes use a leather rag or a fake fur tug. He prefers softer ones that can flap around. He is probably less likely to chew a less stimulating tug, but he is also less likely to give me good tugging on one.

At the moment, he has a leash on when tugging and if he tries to chew it I shorten it til he stops or if he lets go to chew it he loses it and I use frustration a bit in the hope that he learns he doesn't get to keep it if he chews on it.

He will retrieve it to my hand but it could be faster, he can still at times be a bit hesitant to bring it back. Miles better than what it was before though.

Any other ideas?

[Nekhbet]

are you using the tug as a prey reward and retrieval item? That could be why you're having problems with chewing. If he's playing well on a tug apply more pressure, he'll learn if he chews it he will lose it.

[Kavik]

I am using tug as a prey item, and hopefully to be able to use it as a thrown reward as well as a reward on my person (not until these issues are fixed though). He doesn't chew so much when actually tugging, mainly when I let him win it to work on the retrieve, so he is still more interested in possessing it/playing with it himself than bringing it back to play with me.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Kavik

[Kavik]

I should probably video it hey? That would make it easier to tell what is going on and whether what I am doing is helping or making it worse lol. Maybe I'll try to persuade OH to help me video it this weekend (wish me luck on that! :laugh: )

[Nekhbet]

(he didn't want to tug after getting the food, required a bit of effort on my part to get him tugging again.)

Food is a higher reward for him, why force him to do something he doesnt value? If food works more, run with it.

He doesn't chew so much when actually tugging, mainly when I let him win it to work on the retrieve, so he is still more interested in possessing it/playing with it himself than bringing it back to play with me.

Don't let him have it at all then. Trying to work out exactly what you're doing in using it as a thrown prey reward too.

Why don't you try the swapsies game? Have two prey items and when he has 'won' one show him the other which is the same thing. Swap one for the other, the faster he gets the one he has back to you and gives it too you the faster he gets another to play with. I think letting him run around with it at all is becoming your downfall, when he has a good play with it then ask him to out, start again.

[Kavik]

Sometimes it is better to be able to use a toy reward than food, depending on the exercise. And he does have good prey drive and loves toys - his favourite is a thrown toy though. If I am going to be able to use tugging as a reward, he has to be able to tug around food, we have actually made great progress with this so far.

Weaving is an example of when you need to be able to use a thrown reward, and sending over jumps or through tunnels - when you want to reward forward movement away from you, and many trainers prefer you use a toy you can tug on than a ball as it is more interactive. So he needs to be able to bring it back to me. It is not the same as SchH training in drive.

I don't think the two toy game would work - have tried it - he is more interested in the one he has. The amount of chewing he does seems to depend on the toy, this udder tug seems to be one he likes to chew. Maybe I should go to one he is less likely to chew for now. He really likes it though!

Edited January 20, 2012 by Kavik

[Nekhbet]

sorry had removalists arrive :p

Weaving is an example of when you need to be able to use a thrown reward, and sending over jumps or through tunnels - when you want to reward forward movement away from you, and many trainers prefer you use a toy you can tug on than a ball as it is more interactive. So he needs to be able to bring it back to me. It is not the same as SchH training in drive

Merely trying to gauge what your goal was with the dog :) Just got a little confused as I wasnt quite sure what you were doing

I don't think the two toy game would work - have tried it - he is more interested in the one he has. The amount of chewing he does seems to depend on the toy, this udder tug seems to be one he likes to chew. Maybe I should go to one he is less likely to chew for now. He really likes it though!

What I meant is you have to go backwards to go forwards. OK your dog wont return the one his got - then no more throwing it until he learns otherwise. Fun only happens, for now, right in your hands. Put it on a rope if you have to, throw the toy out and reel it back in fast, then reel him in too 'tugging' as you go - praise heavily as he's tugging 'good dog, GOOD DOG! GOOD DOG!' so you're part of that joyous moment of prey capture. When he gets back to you ask him to give you the toy and start again. Swapsies keeps the momentum of the prey drive going. I would be having a look why the dog is finding being away from you with a toy more rewarding then you yourself.

At the moment, he has a leash on when tugging and if he tries to chew it I shorten it til he stops or if he lets go to chew it he loses it and I use frustration a bit in the hope that he learns he doesn't get to keep it if he chews on it.

This might be the reason why, instead of you being associated with the good part of the prey reward you're the one trying to take it away - he might see you as a potential loss of the prey item instead of part of the rewarding experience of tug. Chewing a prey reward item is part of the drive, he's really getting into it and then you take it away instead of having him offer it to you.

If you keep swapping the prey item around and going for ones he's not too keen on then you're also prohibiting moving forward with tug around food. You cannot force a dog to like one thing over another at that particular moment - if he drops the toy for food and forgets it then you have to think 'ok why is the food suddenly more rewarding'. Is it because the prey reward just isnt what he has been conditioned to respond to over food? Is it one he's been half hearted about and had food rewards over it (eg accidentally reinforcing leaving the prey item and going for food) Using a tug he likes less, waving something he loves like food under his nose and then expecting him to just want to bring the tug to you ... pushing the proverbial wheelbarrow uphill and you'll sour the dog to training.

Conversely if you want the prey to be more, don't mix prey work with food rewards in the one training session. Prey drive is meant to suppress food drive - if you try and get his prey up then bring him back down to food, you're then trying to build him up again in the one session. No hyped up dog will take food, they have to come down to a calmer level to accept and find it a reward, and bye bye nice prey drive level. Have the food there by all means for conditioning purposes (ie to ignore it), but I would be tempted to not use it until you see his prey drive is starting to peter out, then a small break and change exercise to a food based one if you're doing an extended session.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Nekhbet

[The Spotted Devil]

Kavik, Ziggy tugs like a fiend now but I only use it as a focus tool for agility. I throw cheese cubes for weavers and the like. I think that continues to build value for tugging by backchaining - so a sequence might go (with a hand full of food)....tug, give, tug, give, tug, give, weave, throw cheese! I have similar issues to you in that Zig would rather play "bucking broncos" :laugh: but I'm not bothered. 2 dogs, 3 sports, I'm just happy that he now swims (or is that drowns lol), retrieves and tugs with absolute joy. I used to get that insistence from some agility people that I use tug/toy as a reward but anyone who actually watches him train or trial understands that I know my dog best :)

[Kavik]

There are some he likes that he doesn't chew as much, I meant choosing one of those, not one he doesn't like. I was getting decent retrives and tugging with some toys, with this one he seems to be going back to chewing on it after I let him win after tugging.

I'm sure that seeing me as the one taking it away is the problem (mistake I made when I first started teaching tug, will know better with next dog), which is why I was working on the retrieve, letting him win it, then what I found worked quite well (when he isn't chewing on it) was to wait him out, quiet 'good' when coming towards me and mark with 'yes' when he got to me and start the game again. Now I am only taking it off him like that if he is chewing on it, wasn't sure what else to do since it is self rewarding.

OK are you suggesting put toy on rope, throw it then release dog, reel in toy and tug when he gets to me?

I haven't been able to get him to tug in all environments, whereas he will take food anywhere - so yes hasn't been conditioned to take the prey reward over food. I have worked up slowly to being able to pick up food from treat bag and he will still tug. Treating it like a distraction.

Some of the exercises in an online course I am doing at the moment require you to be able to switch from rewarding with food to rewarding with tug in the same session.

Normally I start with tugging exercises and then finish with food exercises.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Kavik

[The Spotted Devil]

Meant to say that I generally don't let Zig "win" but have built value other ways eg I ask him to give only when he is tugging with real commitment, then he gets food. I slowly increased my expectations in terms of strength, time and number of repetitions then added obstacles and then he gets food.

Edited January 20, 2012 by The Spotted Devil

[Kavik]

Kavik, Ziggy tugs like a fiend now but I only use it as a focus tool for agility. I throw cheese cubes for weavers and the like. I think that continues to build value for tugging by backchaining - so a sequence might go (with a hand full of food)....tug, give, tug, give, tug, give, weave, throw cheese! I have similar issues to you in that Zig would rather play "bucking broncos" :laugh: but I'm not bothered. 2 dogs, 3 sports, I'm just happy that he now swims (or is that drowns lol), retrieves and tugs with absolute joy. I used to get that insistence from some agility people that I use tug/toy as a reward but anyone who actually watches him train or trial understands that I know my dog best :)

At the moment I am using a thrown toy for weavers as he just flies for this toy! Would be stoked if he would tug at agility.

Mainly seeing how far I can go with tugging - might as well see if I can overcome these issues now so I have a better shot at getting it right with the next dog!

[Nekhbet]

Some of the exercises in an online course I am doing at the moment require you to be able to switch from rewarding with food to rewarding with tug in the same session.

See a dog doesnt follow a manual :laugh: and I find that a bit confusing for the dog. If your dog is not that type of dog, you can't make him into something his not. Then you get the problems your having now. If I threw food at my girl she'd duck to miss it because prey drive is more to her. No more toy and she's still only a little keen on food but will search for a prey item from me. Why would I want to bounce my dogs brain around like that in a session by chopping and changing on my own demand? If a dog will walk over hot coals for something then don't take it away from them ;) let the dog decide (to a degree ... you know what I mean) what will make a really strong, productive session.

OK are you suggesting put toy on rope, throw it then release dog, reel in toy and tug when he gets to me?

Releeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease ... formality. Just play with the dog. No release commands, no sit, drop, stay just have fun with the dog. Put it on a rope, tease him a bit with it and throw it for him. Let him go get it, cheer him on and encourage him to come back with it, tugging more the closer he gets to you. Just like a flirt pole crossed with a fishing reel :laugh: My point in all this is, we tend to get caught up in commands, procedures, reward schedules etc. I see it with people at dog club a lot and then they look at me like a lunatic when I tell them to spend the session just mucking around with the dog. Many people can't do it ... they have to throw commands in, or formality. The basis of making rewards effective is they are no pressure on the dog - and too many commands we tend to teach the dogs just switch them their brains into old habits which you're trying to fix.

I'm sure that seeing me as the one taking it away is the problem (mistake I made when I first started teaching tug, will know better with next dog), which is why I was working on the retrieve, letting him win it, then what I found worked quite well (when he isn't chewing on it) was to wait him out, quiet 'good' when coming towards me and mark with 'yes' when he got to me and start the game again. Now I am only taking it off him like that if he is chewing on it, wasn't sure what else to do since it is self rewarding.

As soon as the dog latches on, there's your win. They don't have to do victory laps with the prey item thats how you teach dogs to bugger off down the field and self reward. You marked the dog at the wrong time - effectively you taught him

1) the prey is yours to do what you want with

2) if you come near me I'll take it from you when your drive is really high (loss)

3) when you decide to come here I'll reward you ... but I'll have to wait until my reward is worth something to you ... so you have to lose a buttload of drive around me to accept it and I'm marking it!

It's fixable. Don't think I'm being a negative ninny or coming across like that :p It will just take some time BUT be informal with it. Trust me it does help a lot especially with those who's prey drive really shuts down around their owners in situations.

At the moment I am using a thrown toy for weavers as he just flies for this toy! Would be stoked if he would tug at agility.

Will he weave towards you or only away from you? What happens if someone holds his collar for the weaves, releases, and you reward him when he comes out the other end?

Edited January 20, 2012 by Nekhbet

[Kavik]

I didn't mean release as in make him stay first , more I would restrain with collar, throw toy, then release him/let go of collar. But by reeling him in, he still isn't choosing to bring the toy back?

I'm hoping the dog doesn't do victory laps with it :laugh: I'm watching (still haven't finished) Michael Ellis's tug DVD, for his retrieve he lets the dog win it, then runs backwards encouraging the dog to come to him, then marks with a yes and continues tugging. I tried that and at first the dog wouldn't come towards me when I was running backwards (will do so a bit more now), so I thought I'd wait him out so it would be more fun if he brought it back and we could tug again.

In agility, it is unlikely the dog would ever be weaving towards you, I don't think he ever would in the handling system I am using, unless maybe you were doing some complicated and strange lead out :laugh: and since you can get ahead of a dog in the weavers this is unlikely. So I haven't tried that scenario. I think we may have tried it once in training ages ago. Most weave proofing involves sending the dog ahead to the weaves, distance work, different angled entries, and using your body movement or other obstacles as distractions

No time frame on this so I don't mind if it takes time :laugh: I'm sure it will take time to undo bad tug habits, just trying to figure out what will work

Edited January 20, 2012 by Kavik

[Nekhbet]

just thinking with the weaves, that you harness the dogs enthusiasm towards his toy and ergo onto you, so he goes through the weaves, right into the toy in your hands, massive tug game YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY! release tug and start again. So momentum and drive is towards you WITH the toy ... just something to work with.

Ahh I see where you got the idea from. Yup was a great idea but see how he keeps up the enthusiasm and momentum? The dog's on a roll and wants more, and thats the thing you use to your advantage ;)

I didn't mean release as in make him stay first , more I would restrain with collar, throw toy, then release him/let go of collar. But by reeling him in, he still isn't choosing to bring the toy back?

No because the dogs focus will immediately be on the toy thrown, not you holding the toy. Doesnt have to go out for miles, just a few meters of it. Wave it around, especially in front of your face, raz him up a bit and throw it for him. You will find he wants to do his keep away but reel in the toy, especially if he misses it. If he's tugging with you praise him, but dont let the line out any further so the only option is to return to you. When he does return, big pats, get down with him and a good strong cuddle while he still has the toy (close proximity of handler doesnt = loss) then ask him to give it to you while he's still happy. Repeat :D

[Kavik]

Thanks Nekhbet, will give it a try tomorrow and tell you how it goes.

May try Ellis's idea for retrieve with a puppy who hasn't learnt to run off with the toy :laugh:

[Kavik]

Just watching more of the DVD and in the Engagement section there is a Dutch Shepherd whose retrieve is similar to Kaos's - a bit hesitant and slow and the dog is possessive of the toy.

[dasha]

Every dog has a different idea of what is rewarding with a tug toy.

Some like to parade it, some like it if when they win it, you clap etc and let them keep it, others just want to hold it and circle you. Some want you to "try" to win it back from them as they like to possess it rather than tug on it. Let him dictate the game for now and then develop that, once it has got some value for him.

Personally you trying to MAKE him play with a TOY in the way you want him to rather than how he finds it rewarding is possibly your biggest problem.

You want him to tug but then he grabs his lead so you stop him. Not really helping him at this stage of developing his want to tug IMO.

Obviously I have never seen your dog or how he does or doesn't play/tug or your interaction with him so it makes it hard to see what may or may not work.

Not all dogs tug.

Not all working bred dogs will tug/fetch wrestle. It is a very individual thing in dogs.

As the trainer, it is your job to find out what motivates the dog the most and then be able to adapt and use that desire to your program. Maybe you need to change your ideas of what is a valuable reward for him and go with it. It sounds like he has given you plenty of hints over the time.

YUM YUM FOOD>

Maybe you can let him teach you some things on how to train a dog in drive using food as the main reward.

Edited January 20, 2012 by dasha

[Kavik]

Every dog has a different idea of what is rewarding with a tug toy.

Some like to parade it, some like it if when they win it, you clap etc and let them keep it, others just want to hold it and circle you. Some want you to "try" to win it back from them as they like to possess it rather than tug on it. Let him dictate the game for now and then develop that, once it has got some value for him.

Personally you trying to MAKE him play with a TOY in the way you want him to rather than how he finds it rewarding is possibly your biggest problem.

You want him to tug but then he grabs his lead so you stop him. Not really helping him at this stage of developing his want to tug IMO.

Obviously I have never seen your dog or how he does or doesn't play/tug or your interaction with him so it makes it hard to see what may or may not work.

Not all dogs tug.

Not all working bred dogs will tug/fetch wrestle. It is a very individual thing in dogs.

As the trainer, it is your job to find out what motivates the dog the most and then be able to adapt and use that desire to your program. Maybe you need to change your ideas of what is a valuable reward for him and go with it. It sounds like he has given you plenty of hints over the time.

YUM YUM FOOD>

Maybe you can let him teach you some things on how to train a dog in drive using food as the main reward.

He does enjoy tugging. I didn't know the best way to go about training tug when I got him, just tried a few things (it turns out not always the right things lol), and when I got stuck (when he wouldn't tug in a new place etc) I just left it as I didn't know how to get past it. I am pretty sure that if I knew what I was doing regarding tug when I got him, he would be tugging now no problem. I'm going to continue giving it a go, at least so I have a better idea of how to overcome tugging problems in the next dog. I'm sure even the best trainers had to find their feet with tug with the first dog they trained to do it.

He works differently for food than toys. Obviously I use food for a lot of exercises but for some exercises he definitely works better for a toy, it just happens that his favourite toy is a thrown toy not a tug toy.

[Nekhbet]

Just watching more of the DVD and in the Engagement section there is a Dutch Shepherd whose retrieve is similar to Kaos's - a bit hesitant and slow and the dog is possessive of the toy.

Dutchies can be a whole separate thing ... they can article guard so it might be more a case of possession aggression over the item.

It just comes to relaxing more with the whole thing. Like I said, take a few steps back in order to go forward.

I'm going to continue giving it a go, at least so I have a better idea of how to overcome tugging problems in the next dog. I'm sure even the best trainers had to find their feet with tug with the first dog they trained to do it.

You're completely right with this :D

[Kavik]

OK this morning's session. Used different toy (leather rag I rolled and tied both ends, and put a rope on it).

Initial interest and tug good, out and reengage good, then out and I showed him the toy, talked to him revving him and threw it. He went out keen but when he got there he just put his paws on it, like a prey pounce, instead of picking it up. It wasn't until I started reeling it back in that he grabbed it. Reeled it in, had a good play. Did this a few more times (and out/reengage) with similar results each time. Interesting.