Updated - He Has Got Worse

[~Shepherd~]

I wouldn't have a dog on any of those drugs unless they were prescribed by a vet working in conjunction with a behaviourist with a long term management plan. The reason why nobody has suggested it is because the dog needs to be assessed first before anything like that would be considered.

If a dog is that bad that it needs that sort of medication it isn't really good enough to be called pet quality, and shouldn't have been sold as a pet.

And dogs that have needed such intensive medication should not be bred with when there are enough faulty temperamented dogs out in the community already.Non desexed males can loose sperm producing tissue and should not be on the medication anyway, but I am sure her vet would have told her that first.

Edited March 9, 2012 by ~Shepherd~

[Greytmate]

This dog has already been placed as a pet, and the fact that it needs drugs does not make it unsuitable as a pet, it just requires a carefully managed plan from a Vet and a behaviourist to reach this outcome as a settled and content companion dog.

I do wish you all the best of luck.

What about the owner's needs? Why do you think people buy pets? There is an expectation that when a person buys a dog sold as a pet that it will be able to live happily as a pet in a normal home. Temperament does have a genetic component, so if you are breeding with nervy dogs you are going to be breeding pups that are not up to the quality that pup buyers and the community expects. Why should the buyer be expected to turn a faulty dog into a good pet? Getting a new dog already involves a lot of work and training, it doesn't need to have an extra level of hardship added.

[Saffioraire]

1331304427[/url]' post='5757050']

1331300675[/url]' post='5757030']

This dog has already been placed as a pet, and the fact that it needs drugs does not make it unsuitable as a pet, it just requires a carefully managed plan from a Vet and a behaviourist to reach this outcome as a settled and content companion dog.

I do wish you all the best of luck.

What about the owner's needs? Why do you think people buy pets? There is an expectation that when a person buys a dog sold as a pet that it will be able to live happily as a pet in a normal home. Temperament does have a genetic component, so if you are breeding with nervy dogs you are going to be breeding pups that are not up to the quality that pup buyers and the community expects. Why should the buyer be expected to turn a faulty dog into a good pet? Getting a new dog already involves a lot of work and training, it doesn't need to have an extra level of hardship added.

I've no idea what your talking about. The owner of the dog in this thread states she wants to continue on with her rescue dog that she has bought as a pet. Hence I am offering a view that has not yet been offered.

There is no talk of breeding. This dog came from the RSPCA.

[OSoSwift]

Just my 5 cents. I would seriously consider returning him to the rescue.

He has some rather large issues and has caused an amazing amount of damage in a really short space of time. He has also damaged himself and cost you a large amount of money. Having a pet is not supposed to be that stressful.

Saffioraire - I think the breeding was refering to the dogs you have had on medication that are part fo your breeding program.

[WreckitWhippet]

Just my 5 cents. I would seriously consider returning him to the rescue.

He has some rather large issues and has caused an amazing amount of damage in a really short space of time. He has also damaged himself and cost you a large amount of money. Having a pet is not supposed to be that stressful.

Saffioraire - I think the breeding was refering to the dogs you have had on medication that are part fo your breeding program.

This.

[Animal House]

He would have been returned after shredding the furniture and tearing down the door.

Honestly, I think the dog has more problems than you can deal with (and that isn't your fault at all).

He probably needs a home/foster home with an owner experienced in dealing with problem dogs.

Save yourself (and him) any more trauma and take him back to the shelter.

Dogs are supposed to bring joy into your life, not stress and destruction costing you big dollars.

You shouldn't feel guilty, he was the wrong dig for you.

If you want to get another dog, I'd look at a dog that is already in foster care, and doesn't require a load iof mental/physical exercise.

I think the shelter should have been more helpful than saying crate train him, but not all shelters are ethical either.

[Guest lavendergirl]

Ok so I've skimmed through and no-ones said this so far but it might be worth looking into means of medication. I don't mean doping him out of his brain, but there are things they can prescribe for immediate effect such as Valium which he will be weaned onto and off again, and longer term fixes such as Clomicalm.

Sometimes behavior therapy alone is not enough, and likewise drug therapy alone is not enough either. However if you use a very carefully applied plan of drugs and behavior therapy together you are most likely to get the best results.

The most extreme dog I've ever had DUG THROUGH A WALL of a mud brick house, and ate a door + all of the other lovely damage he did. When he went to his new home he was on Clomicalm and he became a treasured family pet. My two others have anxiety after coming through quarantine and with my second one I just popped him on clomicalm straight away to help with the settling in process. While many might be against me for this, it made his integration much more tolerable for HIM.

Alleviating his immediate stress may be enough, but a long term program would be wise. This helps him to evaluate his new home without the demons of his past controlling his every thought. I will also say that on both accounts with my import dogs the greatest improvement was actually seen after they came off a period on clomicalm.

I think it is valid to raise the suggestion of medication - if the OP decides she wants to keep the dog and work on its issues. I believe these medications are quite expensive? The OP would need to balance up costs etc as well if she is on a tight budget and sometimes dosage is a trial and error process.

[Greytmate]

I've no idea what your talking about. The owner of the dog in this thread states she wants to continue on with her rescue dog that she has bought as a pet. Hence I am offering a view that has not yet been offered.

There is no talk of breeding. This dog came from the (edited out name)

The dog is not behaving like a pet. You are a breeder, you are supposed to have some idea. There is a benchmark where we can say that a dog is not of pet quality. New pet owners deserve a dog that is going to add joy to their lives, not add nightmares. They deserve a quality healthy pet. If you want to breed ethically you need to keep that in mind.

Edited March 9, 2012 by Greytmate

[Greytmate]

Saffonaire you don't know where this dog came from. Why mention a particular organisation? It is up to the OP if they want to tell us who they are, not you to make guesses as to who rehomed this dog. Especially since the ethics of the shelter have been questioned.

[LizT]

Just wanted to add that if you do decide to return the dog as unsuitable, sooner rather than later will be easier on everyone. It is not a failure, as other posters have already stated. This is more than you and your OH had antipated and is a huge ask. You have already stated you don't have the resources to do much about either a behaviourist or buildign a yard at this time due to the financial drain this dog has already caused you.

I had to return a two year old adopted GSD many years ago, as he appeared to get on well with my other dogs for about a month, but when my Schipperke dug up a bone he'd buried, the GSD attacked her and she required expensive surgery. It was decided by us and the Animal shelter he came from that he would best suit a solo dog family.

Pity they didn't screen the dog quite so thoroughly in those days. It could have saved alot of upset all round.

We ended up getting a puppy that fit in much bit easier.

Whatever you decide, no one will (or should) judge you.

[kirsty79]

Is the shelter close to you? If you do decide to go ahead and try a behaviourist, maybe talk to them about if they could take him as a day boarder, either for free or subsidized cost?

The shelter is a 8 hour round trip via car

[kirsty79]

What happens to the dog if he goes back to the shelter ?

The shelter owner has confirmed she will take him back if we are unable to help him and I would guess as a no kill shelter she will attempt to rehome only with an accurate description this time of the issues he has.

[kirsty79]

Thank you so much for all of your replies.

There has been some really useful suggestions and great advice :)

My partner and I had a long talk over the weekend over what to do about Eric. I contacted the shelter again and the owner has confirmed as I made her aware of the issues so early on that she will refund the adoption fee even though outside of the 4 weeks from adoption. She unfortunately didn't have any further suggestions bar making / buying a kennel so he has somewhere "safe" to hide if he felt threatened / scared during the day whilst we were at work.

Eric, over the weekend was good as gold. He went to the dog park, met lots of doggie friends, had a blast. I read thoroughly the NILIF article. It was fantastic! I started to implement it Friday evening. By Sunday night Eric was sitting, not touching his food which was placed in front of him till I said he could, getting on his bed and staying there when told, sitting and waiting at the door until I said he could go in etc. He wasn't demanding attention or pushing our hands. He genuinely was behaving. Sunday afternoon we decided to concrete under the gate he had dug under and raise the gate which we thought he could possibly clear. We also reinforced the back door by building like a large fence panel with individual planks of wood and then screwing / nailing it to the door frame. Granted we couldn't get in or out of the door but we thought it would stop Eric getting in. I also went in search of and made new toys with cardboard boxes, bed sheets, treats, milk cartons etc. With bunnings, and toys etc, that was another $100 gone. Sunday night we decided to fast him so he was more food driven as per the vets advice.

Monday morning he went for his usual 40 minute walk. Then just as we were leaving we gave him a big bone.

By the time my partner made it home at 5pm the fence nailed / screwed to the back door frame had been completely ripped off and was lying on the floor. Thankfully the 3, yes thats THREE other layers to get to the door were in tact. We also have a kind of cane fencing in front of the wire fencing at the side of the house to make it look nicer - this now has a giant whole ripped into it.

Tonight my partner is building a kennel for Eric so he has somewhere to feel safe, but to be quite honest and also since reading an earlier post, I am starting to think it's not separation anxiety. Yes he was previously following us around the house and wimpering when he heard us get home, but he doesn't show any signs of getting upset or stressed when he sees us getting ready for work at exactly the same time everyday. He just carries on kipping on his bed. He doesn't bark either when put outside??

Just in answer to an earlier comment / question. The vet has prescribed us some sedatives for him. They were first prescribed when he was desexed because even with the cone on he was forcing himself through the original small doggie dog just to get inside. I used the sedative once and it completely knocked him for six. He could barely stand. I couldn't use them after that. If I did as a last resort we'd have to trial the amount to give him because what we were told by the vet wasn't accurate at all.

So, overall, we are coming to the end of our hope for Eric. I am so sad and can't help but shed a tear when I think of giving him back. I lost my basset hound in a bitter marriage breakdown last May, and my gorgeous collie x suffered major kidney failure and was put to sleep last December. Pickles is my partners dog and Eric was always going to be mine. It took a fair while for me to even contemplate getting another dog because I was so scared of going through that heartbreak again. The thought of saying goodbye to him is just devastating

[Guest RosieFT]

I am so sorry for what you are going through, you really sound as though you are doing everything you can think of for this dog.

I also need to show this thread to my husband as I have noticed our back fence hidden up the far back of our property, has shifted and i can see the next door staffy through the gap and it feels wobbly. I want it reinforced in case the dog tries to come over as he can get quite riled up when he hears rosie playing with toys in our garden. My husband says there is no way a dog can get through the fence, over it yes, not through it. hmmmmMMMM.

[Guest lavendergirl]

Thank you so much for all of your replies.

There has been some really useful suggestions and great advice :)

My partner and I had a long talk over the weekend over what to do about Eric. I contacted the shelter again and the owner has confirmed as I made her aware of the issues so early on that she will refund the adoption fee even though outside of the 4 weeks from adoption. She unfortunately didn't have any further suggestions bar making / buying a kennel so he has somewhere "safe" to hide if he felt threatened / scared during the day whilst we were at work.

Eric, over the weekend was good as gold. He went to the dog park, met lots of doggie friends, had a blast. I read thoroughly the NILIF article. It was fantastic! I started to implement it Friday evening. By Sunday night Eric was sitting, not touching his food which was placed in front of him till I said he could, getting on his bed and staying there when told, sitting and waiting at the door until I said he could go in etc. He wasn't demanding attention or pushing our hands. He genuinely was behaving. Sunday afternoon we decided to concrete under the gate he had dug under and raise the gate which we thought he could possibly clear. We also reinforced the back door by building like a large fence panel with individual planks of wood and then screwing / nailing it to the door frame. Granted we couldn't get in or out of the door but we thought it would stop Eric getting in. I also went in search of and made new toys with cardboard boxes, bed sheets, treats, milk cartons etc. With bunnings, and toys etc, that was another $100 gone. Sunday night we decided to fast him so he was more food driven as per the vets advice.

Monday morning he went for his usual 40 minute walk. Then just as we were leaving we gave him a big bone.

By the time my partner made it home at 5pm the fence nailed / screwed to the back door frame had been completely ripped off and was lying on the floor. Thankfully the 3, yes thats THREE other layers to get to the door were in tact. We also have a kind of cane fencing in front of the wire fencing at the side of the house to make it look nicer - this now has a giant whole ripped into it.

Tonight my partner is building a kennel for Eric so he has somewhere to feel safe, but to be quite honest and also since reading an earlier post, I am starting to think it's not separation anxiety. Yes he was previously following us around the house and wimpering when he heard us get home, but he doesn't show any signs of getting upset or stressed when he sees us getting ready for work at exactly the same time everyday. He just carries on kipping on his bed. He doesn't bark either when put outside??

Just in answer to an earlier comment / question. The vet has prescribed us some sedatives for him. They were first prescribed when he was desexed because even with the cone on he was forcing himself through the original small doggie dog just to get inside. I used the sedative once and it completely knocked him for six. He could barely stand. I couldn't use them after that. If I did as a last resort we'd have to trial the amount to give him because what we were told by the vet wasn't accurate at all.

So, overall, we are coming to the end of our hope for Eric. I am so sad and can't help but shed a tear when I think of giving him back. I lost my basset hound in a bitter marriage breakdown last May, and my gorgeous collie x suffered major kidney failure and was put to sleep last December. Pickles is my partners dog and Eric was always going to be mine. It took a fair while for me to even contemplate getting another dog because I was so scared of going through that heartbreak again. The thought of saying goodbye to him is just devastating

Yes it is hard but you will at least be reassured in your own mind that you have made every possible effort. The only other thing I can think of if you are building a kennel for him is to leave some of your worn clothes/sheets in there so he has something with your scent. Put his food in there as well and make it as much like a "den" as possible.

[Cavstar]

Aww.. Kirsty..Your last post brought me to tears You sound like such a wonderful caring person who has done everything possible for this dog. I'm so sad for you that despite every effort Eric hasn't worked out for you.

[Greytmate]

What happens to the dog if he goes back to the shelter ?

The shelter owner has confirmed she will take him back if we are unable to help him and I would guess as a no kill shelter she will attempt to rehome only with an accurate description this time of the issues he has.

I think it would be unethical for her to rehome this dog without having it assessed properly (by a professional) first. I don't think it is good enough just to rehome him with such serious issues that could end up in his injury or death.

Suggest to the shelter that you want the dog assessed in your home before you return it. Then you will know exactly what is needed for this dog, and she will have a better idea too.

Getting a refund is one thing, but unless this shelter operator takes her responsibilities seriously, this dog could end up either stuck in a shelter indefinately or in another home that is not able to deal with that level of problem behaviour.

Who is going to take on a dog that may or may not have serious temperament problems that cause it to be so destructive and to try to escape? Who goes out to adopt a dog wanting that? Nobody normal.

While I think you are entitled to a refund, I wouldn't send this dog back to that place unless the shelter owner is prepared to take the problem seriously and find out if the dog is suitable for rehoming at all. Sometimes it is kinder to have a dog put to sleep than it is to have it pass through a number of homes that are not able to solve the problem. Kinder for dog and people.

I am really sorry for you, and I feel that the shelter operator has a responsibility to ensure that the dogs that she rehomes are at least up to pet quality. Unless she holds a qualification or follows an approved testing procedure it would be negligent for her to make a decision on the dog on her own. Now that she knows the seriousness of the problem behaviour she has a duty to do something about it. Disclosing the problems doesn't remove her responsibility, and unless she finds out why the dog is behaving that way she won't know whether it is suitable to be rehomed again or not.

[LizT]

What happens to the dog if he goes back to the shelter ?

The shelter owner has confirmed she will take him back if we are unable to help him and I would guess as a no kill shelter she will attempt to rehome only with an accurate description this time of the issues he has.

I think it would be unethical for her to rehome this dog without having it assessed properly (by a professional) first. I don't think it is good enough just to rehome him with such serious issues that could end up in his injury or death.

Suggest to the shelter that you want the dog assessed in your home before you return it. Then you will know exactly what is needed for this dog, and she will have a better idea too.

Getting a refund is one thing, but unless this shelter operator takes her responsibilities seriously, this dog could end up either stuck in a shelter indefinately or in another home that is not able to deal with that level of problem behaviour.

Who is going to take on a dog that may or may not have serious temperament problems that cause it to be so destructive and to try to escape? Who goes out to adopt a dog wanting that? Nobody normal.

While I think you are entitled to a refund, I wouldn't send this dog back to that place unless the shelter owner is prepared to take the problem seriously and find out if the dog is suitable for rehoming at all. Sometimes it is kinder to have a dog put to sleep than it is to have it pass through a number of homes that are not able to solve the problem. Kinder for dog and people.

I am really sorry for you, and I feel that the shelter operator has a responsibility to ensure that the dogs that she rehomes are at least up to pet quality. Unless she holds a qualification or follows an approved testing procedure it would be negligent for her to make a decision on the dog on her own. Now that she knows the seriousness of the problem behaviour she has a duty to do something about it. Disclosing the problems doesn't remove her responsibility, and unless she finds out why the dog is behaving that way she won't know whether it is suitable to be rehomed again or not.

Greytmate she has only just got this dog from a shelter.

All that assessing should have been done for her and her partners benefit and not fall on their shoulders.

I think it was very remiss of the shelter to hand over a dog that obviously had not been assessed in an environment other than the secure pens shelters have.

It is not fair on the OP to have to have all this burden when all she wanted was a nice dog to join their family.

There are plenty of nice dogs, well assessed out there that should have been lined up for lovely people like these.

Edited March 13, 2012 by LizT

[Guest lavendergirl]

What happens to the dog if he goes back to the shelter ?

The shelter owner has confirmed she will take him back if we are unable to help him and I would guess as a no kill shelter she will attempt to rehome only with an accurate description this time of the issues he has.

I think it would be unethical for her to rehome this dog without having it assessed properly (by a professional) first. I don't think it is good enough just to rehome him with such serious issues that could end up in his injury or death.

Suggest to the shelter that you want the dog assessed in your home before you return it. Then you will know exactly what is needed for this dog, and she will have a better idea too.

Getting a refund is one thing, but unless this shelter operator takes her responsibilities seriously, this dog could end up either stuck in a shelter indefinately or in another home that is not able to deal with that level of problem behaviour.

Who is going to take on a dog that may or may not have serious temperament problems that cause it to be so destructive and to try to escape? Who goes out to adopt a dog wanting that? Nobody normal.

While I think you are entitled to a refund, I wouldn't send this dog back to that place unless the shelter owner is prepared to take the problem seriously and find out if the dog is suitable for rehoming at all. Sometimes it is kinder to have a dog put to sleep than it is to have it pass through a number of homes that are not able to solve the problem. Kinder for dog and people.

I am really sorry for you, and I feel that the shelter operator has a responsibility to ensure that the dogs that she rehomes are at least up to pet quality. Unless she holds a qualification or follows an approved testing procedure it would be negligent for her to make a decision on the dog on her own. Now that she knows the seriousness of the problem behaviour she has a duty to do something about it. Disclosing the problems doesn't remove her responsibility, and unless she finds out why the dog is behaving that way she won't know whether it is suitable to be rehomed again or not.

Greytmate she has only just got this dog from a shelter.

All that assessing should have been done for her and her partners benefit and not fall on their shoulders.

I think it was very remiss of the shelter to hand over a dog that obviously had not been assessed in an environment other than the secure pens shelters have.

It is not fair on the OP to have to have all this burden when all she wanted was a nice dog to join their family.

There are plenty of nice dogs, well assessed out there that should have been lined up for lovely people like these.

I agree - the responsibility rests with the shelter. The OP has gone beyond what should be expected of adopters and done more than most would have. Unfortunately I think a lot of shelters fall down a bit with their behavioural assessments.

[Weasels]

Sorry I haven't read through the whole thread but are you able to set up a video recording device to see what he is doing while you are out? I just use the webcam on my laptop and the pre-installed software which will record video. If it is outside maybe up on an undercover perch somewhere so you can angle it towards the door but keep the camera safe.

If you are not sure if it is separation anxiety some video footage would be incredibly useful for you, and potentially for a vetinary behaviourist if this dog ends up needing to go on medication.

All the best with this tough situation