Smacking Aggressive Dog, What Does The Dog Think?

[BDJ]

thanks Gretmate - I agree, a disaster waiting to happen.

I havent seen him, so can only go on what she is telling me. I have had young pups before that when they have their first bone their reaction is 'mine' - the most they have done is gone very still (first sign of 'aggression') and the boldest has 'mumbled', and that has been solved with a 'look' from me and a growl back (and most important, no pulling back until the body softened and then heaps of praise). I have also had older dogs (not raised by me) do a lip curl and louder mumble - and in one case it needed a 'shove' (never even needed to even tap).

I think it is highly likely that she didnt see/recognise the stillness and when she got the mumble inadvertantly praised the behaviour (by cooing bad dog - he heard the tone, not the words) and then when it escalated to lip curl she would have jumped back - instant win for junior and behaviour reinforced.

I agree she needs more help than she is getting, but I also know that any advise would not be taken on board

[huski]

on a slightly different note, how would you handle the below if you were the owner (please note I am not the owner - just an aquaintance)

Puppy bought from pet shop (please remember - I am not the owner and my only input was DONT DO IT :) ) - it is supposedly a poodle/lab cross. And it is aggressive - from when she bought it home at around 10 weeks. When it has food or a toy (and even when it is standing near where the food comes from - ie: the kitchen) it will snap and growl. In her words "it has bitten me twice".

Her trainer is going down the path of distract it with other toy and praise it when it walks away

My thought would be - give him something he does not want to share, place hand next to muzzle, every time he growls/snaps he gets contact with his muzzle (initially a light shove/tap which increases to a rap and then a smack if it does not stop), the hand must not retreat and simply sits next to the muzzle (contact every time there is unwanted behaviour (lip curl, growl, mumble, snap etc) until the body language relaxes then the human fully retreats. Repeat as necessary. For this to work it has to be a) instant b) hand must not react if it gets a nip and c) the smack should never be over harsh or a belt, it is simply a response (on the muzzle) to an action frm the pup

What other trains of thought do people have - this is an owner who genuinely wants to do the right thing (she has told me that she wants to fix it before it becomes a problem) but uses trainers who (from conversations with her about her other dog who did not have this problem) always take the 'softest' method (ie : it is usual to take 2 months to teach a 6mo puppy to sit etc).

thoughts?

Resource guarding is very common, though if it's not properly addressed it can obviously turn into a very serious problem.

I don't believe there is any instance where smacking a dog is an appropriate training method, especially considering that resource guarding is generally an insecure behaviour. Smacking the the puppy for displaying this behaviour could reinforce her feeling that the owner is a threat to her and something to be worried about.

I would be teaching the puppy to look to the owner for permission to have items she values and that it is rewarding to relinquish items of value to the owner.

[melstar-36]

I sure did and so did two other women who were standing near the petting zoo, but the owner ignored us, and walked off with his head held high, ignorant fool!!! I then took his number plate and emailed the RSPCA, I know it probably won't do anything because of lack of proof but at least I know that I did everything I could.

[Whippetsmum]

Dog sounds like it was scared by the strangeness of the whole situation- noise, crowd, strange animals, owner etc.

[fuzzy82]

Just go and grab the dog, remove it from the situation. Keep it on a long line for a while to see if it tends to want to do it again while under control. If it doesn't, assume it was a one time incident and return to normal. If the dog is often trying to rush at other dogs start training it.

[Red Fox]

on a slightly different note, how would you handle the below if you were the owner (please note I am not the owner - just an aquaintance)

Puppy bought from pet shop (please remember - I am not the owner and my only input was DONT DO IT :) ) - it is supposedly a poodle/lab cross. And it is aggressive - from when she bought it home at around 10 weeks. When it has food or a toy (and even when it is standing near where the food comes from - ie: the kitchen) it will snap and growl. In her words "it has bitten me twice".

Her trainer is going down the path of distract it with other toy and praise it when it walks away

My thought would be - give him something he does not want to share, place hand next to muzzle, every time he growls/snaps he gets contact with his muzzle (initially a light shove/tap which increases to a rap and then a smack if it does not stop), the hand must not retreat and simply sits next to the muzzle (contact every time there is unwanted behaviour (lip curl, growl, mumble, snap etc) until the body language relaxes then the human fully retreats. Repeat as necessary. For this to work it has to be a) instant b) hand must not react if it gets a nip and c) the smack should never be over harsh or a belt, it is simply a response (on the muzzle) to an action frm the pup

What other trains of thought do people have - this is an owner who genuinely wants to do the right thing (she has told me that she wants to fix it before it becomes a problem) but uses trainers who (from conversations with her about her other dog who did not have this problem) always take the 'softest' method (ie : it is usual to take 2 months to teach a 6mo puppy to sit etc).

thoughts?

Dog doesn't sound aggressive, it sounds insecure. Personally I'd be feeding it in a crate undisturbed. Feeding in an open area and allowing free access to toys and bones is asking for trouble IMO.

She's in SA? Tell her to contact Mark Singer.

[Jumabaar]

on a slightly different note, how would you handle the below if you were the owner (please note I am not the owner - just an aquaintance)

Puppy bought from pet shop (please remember - I am not the owner and my only input was DONT DO IT :) ) - it is supposedly a poodle/lab cross. And it is aggressive - from when she bought it home at around 10 weeks. When it has food or a toy (and even when it is standing near where the food comes from - ie: the kitchen) it will snap and growl. In her words "it has bitten me twice".

Her trainer is going down the path of distract it with other toy and praise it when it walks away

My thought would be - give him something he does not want to share, place hand next to muzzle, every time he growls/snaps he gets contact with his muzzle (initially a light shove/tap which increases to a rap and then a smack if it does not stop), the hand must not retreat and simply sits next to the muzzle (contact every time there is unwanted behaviour (lip curl, growl, mumble, snap etc) until the body language relaxes then the human fully retreats. Repeat as necessary. For this to work it has to be a) instant b) hand must not react if it gets a nip and c) the smack should never be over harsh or a belt, it is simply a response (on the muzzle) to an action frm the pup

What other trains of thought do people have - this is an owner who genuinely wants to do the right thing (she has told me that she wants to fix it before it becomes a problem) but uses trainers who (from conversations with her about her other dog who did not have this problem) always take the 'softest' method (ie : it is usual to take 2 months to teach a 6mo puppy to sit etc).

thoughts?

The method you propose sets the dog up to see the owner as the negative reinforcer and the way to make the owner go away is to shut down. So 1- what happens when the human isn't there to shut the dog down and 2- what happens when the owner wants to enjoy their pet?? The dog has been trained to shut down when the owner comes near them?? I don't smack my dogs- if I use an aversive I much prefer it to be gentle and to not be seen as coming from me. I would much prefer the reward for good behaviour to come from me!! I also give warnings that an aversive is coming so the dog has the choice to discontinue the behaviour and come to me and the reward.

There is also no chance at the dog nipping- I am not sure why you would ever expect/allow your dog to bite you while you are trying to stop a behaviour?? It may even teach them that nipping is ok and may allow it to escalate to true bites as the bite threshold is lowered.....

I agree go to an experienced trainer who will assess the dog and give an appropriate and safe training method.

[Greytmate]

Dog doesn't sound aggressive, it sounds insecure. Personally I'd be feeding it in a crate undisturbed. Feeding in an open area and allowing free access to toys and bones is asking for trouble IMO.

She's in SA? Tell her to contact Mark Singer.

Yes, the dog does sound insecure. But biting and growling is aggression. There should be no confusion about this. Just because there may be a reason for the behaviour does not mean that the behaviour isn't aggression.

When people start denying that the behaviour is aggression, and start using terms like protective or insecurity to describe the behaviour, perhaps they are not understanding what the real problem is. There are plenty of insecure and protective dogs that would never show any aggressive behaviour towards their owner. But this dog is being aggressive. It has bitten.

If a dog bites somebody seriously, owners now risk being charged with a criminal offence in some jurisdictions. Any aggression needs to be taken very seriously and not relabelled to make it more acceptable.

[BDJ]

thanks for the various ideas guys - thats why I think forums are a great way to share knowledge and get different ideas.

I agree that there is a time and place for crates, and that all animals should eat in a peaceful/safe environment 99% of the time, but also believe that all dogs should know that there is a zero tolerance for not being able to take anything away from them at any time (both for the safety of the dog if it is dangerous/poisonous and for others if for example a small child walks up to them etc).

Re the 'letting him nip you' - sorry, I probably wasnt particularly clear. I certainly dont want to be nipped, but at a young age work on the theory of 'it will profit you not'. They cant hurt you, and they dont learn that there is any profit - the hand does not go away. I work on the theory that if they do something unacceptable, and the hand moves away for whatever reason, they have 'profited'. (a bit like a naughty child that gets negative attention - it is still attention).

And great work to the person who reported the idiot who hit his dog - unacceptable in every way.

[Weasels]

There's nothing wrong with physically correcting a dog for inappropriate behaviour, HOWEVER I wouldn't be doing it with a hit/smack (or stopping to make the dog sit). A quick pop or two on the leash and continue walking would be a better option IMO.

The problem IMHO is that every time I see someone using a physical correction 'out in the world' (i.e. not at a training class) their timing is all over the place, and they don't back off as soon as the dog is doing the right thing. Dog isn't learning anything, owner is getting frustrated, messy business all around. Hard to watch

[huski]

There's nothing wrong with physically correcting a dog for inappropriate behaviour, HOWEVER I wouldn't be doing it with a hit/smack (or stopping to make the dog sit). A quick pop or two on the leash and continue walking would be a better option IMO.

The problem IMHO is that every time I see someone using a physical correction 'out in the world' (i.e. not at a training class) their timing is all over the place, and they don't back off as soon as the dog is doing the right thing. Dog isn't learning anything, owner is getting frustrated, messy business all around. Hard to watch

It can be just as hard for owners to get timing right with rewarding their dog too. Hard to watch any time an owner is struggling with handling a dog their dog, it is awful seeing both get so frustrated

[Weasels]

There's nothing wrong with physically correcting a dog for inappropriate behaviour, HOWEVER I wouldn't be doing it with a hit/smack (or stopping to make the dog sit). A quick pop or two on the leash and continue walking would be a better option IMO.

The problem IMHO is that every time I see someone using a physical correction 'out in the world' (i.e. not at a training class) their timing is all over the place, and they don't back off as soon as the dog is doing the right thing. Dog isn't learning anything, owner is getting frustrated, messy business all around. Hard to watch

It can be just as hard for owners to get timing right with rewarding their dog too. Hard to watch any time an owner is struggling with handling a dog their dog, it is awful seeing both get so frustrated

IME though, owners who are using positive reinforcement training are more likely to ask for and listen to advice on training, than people who use force because "that's what I've always done and my other dogs turned out just fine".

Edited April 10, 2012 by Weasels

[huski]

IME though, owners who are using positive reinforcement training are more likely to ask for and listen to advice on training, than people who use force because "that's what I've always done and my other dogs turned out just fine".

IME, owners who use ineffective training methods become frustrated and disheartened regardless of what type of training they are using. I've met plenty of people who are stuck to their training method, even when it's not working, plenty were using PR. IME the owners who do get results are the ones who have the right attitude about using what works for their dogs (once they are shown what that is). Just because they are using corrections doesn't mean they are less likely to be open to learning about other methods.

Edited April 10, 2012 by huski

[Weasels]

Just relating what I've come across in my travels Given the times I walk my dogs I encounter an odd mix of (lovely) people, but I don't for a moment think it's a representative cross-section of the dog owning public. YMMV.

[huski]

Just relating what I've come across in my travels Given the times I walk my dogs I encounter an odd mix of (lovely) people, but I don't for a moment think it's a representative cross-section of the dog owning public. YMMV.

Just relying my experience too, I have certainly met my fair share of 'old school' trainers/owners who are more than happy to beat their dogs up

I think being open to learning more about training is about the owners attitude more so than the method they are currently using.

[Weasels]

Just relating what I've come across in my travels Given the times I walk my dogs I encounter an odd mix of (lovely) people, but I don't for a moment think it's a representative cross-section of the dog owning public. YMMV.

Just relying my experience too, I have certainly met my fair share of 'old school' trainers/owners who are more than happy to beat their dogs up

I think being open to learning more about training is about the owners attitude more so than the method they are currently using.

Yeah, I think it's a generational thing. The people I see who are wedded to a correction-heavy method are generally those who grew up when it was in fashion. I have met a few people who are very very much in the +R only camp, but since they are more active in researching science-based training literature they are generally more open to listening to rational explanations of why I am using one of the "bad" quadrants in a specific situation.

[huski]

Yeah, I think it's a generational thing. The people I see who are wedded to a correction-heavy method are generally those who grew up when it was in fashion. I have met a few people who are very very much in the +R only camp, but since they are more active in researching science-based training literature they are generally more open to listening to rational explanations of why I am using one of the "bad" quadrants in a specific situation.

It's interesting... I had an argument with someone at obedience club recently when I suggested hanging a puppy up by a check chain and choking it was not an appropriate method - they were in their early 20s!

Edited April 10, 2012 by huski

[Weasels]

poor puppy.

[Jumabaar]

Re the 'letting him nip you' - sorry, I probably wasnt particularly clear. I certainly dont want to be nipped, but at a young age work on the theory of 'it will profit you not'. They cant hurt you, and they dont learn that there is any profit - the hand does not go away. I work on the theory that if they do something unacceptable, and the hand moves away for whatever reason, they have 'profited'. (a bit like a naughty child that gets negative attention - it is still attention).

I have seen a young dog who was actually reacting out of fear escalate the behaviour when the warning signs did not 'profit it'. It growled- and it didn't work. When more pressure was applied it air snapped, more pressure was applied and a few weeks later it made contact. It couldn't control its situation and it was trying to communicate how it was feeling but it was ignored so it had to take control of the situation.

A dog with a different motivation will have a different reaction- but thats why recommending a behaviourist who will look at the motivation is often the best way to fix a problem.

Your method hides the behaviour that you dislike. Working with a behaviourist can get to the motivation behind the behaviour and deal with that so the dog never has the desire to exhibit the problem behaviour.

[ChloeEastwood]

I have seen this many times, and agian this morning at the beach.

Dog on a lead in an off-lead beach and barks/growls tries to rush other dogs walking past. Owner smacks it hard (on the side this ocassion, a Cocker Spanial)and makes it sit.

It really makes me feel uncomfortable and sad.

It seems wrong.

So I am asking any doggy psychologists out there...What would the correct thing the owner should do? Usually i say nothing, but if I could help out in a positive way by friendly comment????

It seems the owners are embarrased or something by the dogs behaviour so they lash out at the dog??

I see similar things if a dog tries to "say hello" when the owner doesn't want it to.

thanks.

I personally wouldn't intefer in the matter only because I shy away from confrontation due to past bad experiences.

But if I was in the situation of the handler I'd quickly remove it's focus away from that zone along with a stern "NO" and turn around towards another direction with lots of praises.