sheena Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 OK....I need the DOL brains trust here :laugh: I really don't think there is a solution to the problem, but I can always try. My BC girl does fantastic weaves during training at home & at school on Monday nights with the other dogs all running around & other distractions thrown in. Beautiful hard entries, lovely speed & hardly ever misses a pole....in fact she really enjoys doing them. However, in a trial she is so slow to get through them, it is almost painful to watch & herein I think lies my problem....I am watching & she seems to be being so extra careful not to stuff up, that she slows right down. Mucking around on the course after the trial, she is flying through them. We are in Masters now & only missing out by a couple of seconds here & there, so if I could just get her to go faster through the weaves during her run, it would be the icing on the cake. I have tried running ahead of her, but that doesn't seem to work & it sometimes makes her pull out to keep up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J... Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 (edited) What are you doing different in a trial ring to what you do at training at home and your usual club? Remember DASH - desire, accuracy, speed then habitat. By what you've written about her pulling out if you run ahead, sounds like she could benefit with some more proofing to really build her understanding of her job. Take your poles out on the road somewhere and work them in other places. Can you get her to weave when you run totally the other direction, squeak a squeaky ball at her, throw the ball under her feet, can you have her weave while you're sitting, running backwards, falling. How about a meaty bone under her feet? Her favourite toys under her feet? You looking at her at point blank? From 50 metres away? Your imagination is the limit on this one The other thing that can cause speed issues is arousal levels in the ring, I've had issues with this with Zee with weaving. I've tried the above, tried building a heap of value using chicken necks as rewards, had her weaving daily for her brekky - you name it. What's worked for her was me tying the word "bunnies" with the sound "sssssss". I've then spent some time getting her used to thinking at that level of arousal (because initially it sent her right over the top) and now that's her weave cue "go weave sssssssssssss" all the way through the poles. Her weaving has improved 100 fold in the ring as a result. Edited July 22, 2012 by Jess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheena Posted July 22, 2012 Author Share Posted July 22, 2012 (edited) What are you doing different in a trial ring to what you do at training at home and your usual club? Remember DASH - desire, accuracy, speed then habitat. By what you've written about her pulling out if you run ahead, sounds like she could benefit with some more proofing to really build her understanding of her job. Take your poles out on the road somewhere and work them in other places. Can you get her to weave when you run totally the other direction, squeak a squeaky ball at her, throw the ball under her feet, can you have her weave while you're sitting, running backwards, falling. How about a meaty bone under her feet? Her favourite toys under her feet? You looking at her at point blank? From 50 metres away? Your imagination is the limit on this one The other thing that can cause speed issues is arousal levels in the ring, I've had issues with this with Zee with weaving. I've tried the above, tried building a heap of value using chicken necks as rewards, had her weaving daily for her brekky - you name it. What's worked for her was me tying the word "bunnies" with the sound "sssssss". I've then spent some time getting her used to thinking at that level of arousal (because initially it sent her right over the top) and now that's her weave cue "go weave sssssssssssss" all the way through the poles. Her weaving has improved 100 fold in the ring as a result. Thanks Jess. Most of the above would not pull her out of the weaves while training....well maybe a chicken neck thrown at her feet :laugh: I can send her, recall her & distance her through them. It's only when she is running in an actual trial. She is very brave & fearless till it comes to her turn to run....then its "OMG...it's my turn" & it's mainly the weaves where she goes so slow, she almost stops...hardly ever misses or pulls out, just gets slower & slower till I am almost out of breath egging her on :laugh: No problem doing the weaves in other environments, next to the trial, in front of other dogs etc. I think she is picking up on my anxiety, even though I try to be as casual as possible with lots of praise as we go round. Talking to other competitors, I think it is a fairly common problem. Edited July 22, 2012 by sheena Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J... Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 Ok - Do you cheerlead her at home/training in the weaves? Have you tried not cheerleading her at a trial over a few trials - not all dogs like it or appreciate it. Others find it rewarding, thus rewarding the dog for crap behaviour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheena Posted July 22, 2012 Author Share Posted July 22, 2012 You may have something there. In training I just say "yes" for the correct entry then it's just one long 'GOOOOOOOO" as I race her to the end, followed by "good girl" & a reward. In a trial it's "yes" for the correct entry then it's go,go, go till she reaches the end or I run out of breath :laugh: I might try saying nothing & racing her to the end...is that what you mean??? In training I will add a "whoops" for an error, but I don't do that in a trial as any form of negativism & she shuts down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayreovi Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 (edited) I don't do that in a trial as any form of negativism & she shuts down. On this, have you ever made her redo the weavers at a trial if she enters wrong or pops out? I know this has been my major issue with my boy, if I made him redo anything he would shut down at trials, his weavers were one of his best things at training. He could do it any time, any where and under any distraction but he lost it at trials as I stuidly made him go back and redo anything missed or done incorrectly when we first started. So I've had to sacrifice accuracy for speed and confidence at the moment. Slowly working our way back but maybe your girl is similar? Going slow to get it right the first time? Edited July 22, 2012 by tollersowned Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 In addition to what Jess said - what about your confidence level and body language while handling the weaves at training and at a trial? One thing I noticed about myself is that I am very confident at training and don't really look at him while he weaves whereas at a trial I get nervous and tend to watch him more carefully, which mucks him up, so I am trying to be more consistent with this and trust him as much at trials as training. This has helped in the last few trials, the last one he was really quick and we even managed a rear cross into the weaves. What has also helped is rewarding more often at training (almost every time) including in the middle of a sequence (instead of only at the end of the sequence) and having the opportunity to do mock trial situations where I can reward in the ring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheena Posted July 22, 2012 Author Share Posted July 22, 2012 I don't do that in a trial as any form of negativism & she shuts down. On this, have you ever made her redo the weavers at a trial if she enters wrong or pops out? I know this has been my major issue with my boy, if I made him redo anything he would shut down at trials, his weavers were one of his best things at training. He could do it any time, any where and under any distraction but he lost it at trials as I stuidly made him go back and redo anything missed or done incorrectly when we first started. So I've had to sacrifice accuracy for speed and confidence at the moment. Slowly working our way back but maybe your girl is similar? Going slow to get it right the first time? She has always been very reliable (not 100%) at weaves even though she slows down & all through novice & excellence levels,if she did stuff them up she knew she would be made to come back & do the whole of the weaves again. Only once did I let her run on (therefore inadvertently rewarded her) after pulling out early & it took six months of trialing to get her to be reliable again. So yes I think this is where she has made the connection. Any correction in the ring at all & she shuts down & will sometimes even go pee Now we are in masters, I only make her redo the weaves if it is a complete stuff up, cause I reckon if she pops the last one it is because of my bad handling & any other faults as well we just run on as if nothing has happened....she is so sensitive. Thankfully, she doesn't make many errors & if she does it's my fault. Somehow I have to find a way of putting her through the weaves at trials, with ME being more relaxed....I think....as you say Kavik. In training, I always try to reward throughout the run...at the ends of contacts & weaves or a difficult turn etc. & maybe after just doing a tunnel as well. Sometimes she has to do the whole lot before I reward...I just mix it up a bit. Ahhhhhh......Mock Trials...yes I remember them. They were great. Sadly no-one seems to run them anymore up here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 (edited) Have you got video of her weaving at home? in a trial? Have you got video of her running a whole course at home? in a trial? Is her enthusiasm for all her agility different at home to what it is in a trial, or just the weaves? If in a trial, she has the same attitude to the rest of the course as she does at home, then it's a weaving issue. If she is all round less enthusiastic in a trial, then it's a general training/motivation issue where the weaves are the most notable component. Edited July 22, 2012 by Vickie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 My youngster is slower and much more hesitant in her weaves at trials - at home and at the club she is like a little dynamo. In her case I suspect she finds the trialling environment quite overwhelming - she can keep an eye on all the activity around her when she's jumping but the weaves require absolute focus. I notice she has a quick look around at the top of the A-frame as well. Her attitude on other equipment is awesome and she is getting faster as her confidence improves. I am starting to ask much more of her at home in terms of distractions and will undertake an "on-the-road weaves program" when I return from overseas. Ziggy can now weave at home with some pretty heavy distractions (e.g. calling and shaking his tug toy off to the side and running in the opposite direction) and it has made a world of difference to his weaves at trialling - he nailed a tough entry coming out of an Open Jumping distance challenge on Saturday so it's really paying off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheena Posted July 23, 2012 Author Share Posted July 23, 2012 Hi Vicky...No I don't have a recent video of her trialing. I would have to say she is more enthusiastic about agility at home & at training nights & I would put that down to the fact that she realises that it is not that serious & everyone is having lots of fun. She has never been a high drive dog, but she is very steady & consistant...does lovely starts & run homes, hardly ever knocks a bar, back crosses to die for (according to my instructor :laugh: ), serpentines, go rounds, distance etc. She is a motion reactive dog & I have overcome that with the LAT Programme great success there. Even this weekend she seemed more confident when set up at the start instead of looking back over her shoulder, she is keeping her eye on me. I have been training her the last few weeks with 3,2,1 OK & that seems to be working well. Tunnels are usually a bit slow ....I think she slows down to take in all the nice smells, but lately I have been putting more value on the tunnels in training & had no problems over the weekend. I am not into putting the sheep station on the line, so in that regard, she is the perfect dog for me, if only she could pick up a couple of seconds & its the weaves where she could pick up at least 3 or 4 seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 I am not into putting the sheep station on the line, so in that regard, she is the perfect dog for me, if only she could pick up a couple of seconds & its the weaves where she could pick up at least 3 or 4 seconds. I think you have misunderstood me. This has absolutely nothing to do with sheep stations. In my mind, Increased motivation = increased enjoyment. Pure & Simple. Don't we all want to increase our dog's enjoyment? I was just suggesting that you may need to look beyond the weave poles and that reducing her stress on the whole course will help her weaves...as well as other things. Anyway, good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 (edited) I agree with Vickie. A general difference in performance/speed/confidence between training and competition indicates that more work on these areas will make a big difference overall. It is often the most noticeable with weaves as they are a long and complicated obstacle with many opportunities for the dog to get distracted. This is also something I am working on, as Kaos has run out of the ring at times. I think some may be related to my state of mind at a trial vs training as well as he picks up on that. The environment is also different at a trial. ETA: When I get really nervous at a trial and start taking it too seriously (which almost guarantees Kaos will bail :laugh: ) I am trying to remind myself that I am doing this for FUN! and that it doesn't matter if we get the qually as long as he stays with me and we get to give it a red hot go! He has only bailed once on me this year - of course it had to be at the Nationals which isn't surprising when I think about it - such a big event with a lot of buildup, I hadn't competed at that venue before, I was nervous and put pressure on myself to do well, and we only entered one day, not really enough time to get the bugs out. Edited July 23, 2012 by Kavik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheena Posted July 23, 2012 Author Share Posted July 23, 2012 Why I mentioned sheepstations..Vicky was that I was comparing myself & my dog to others who are very competitive (& a lot younger than me) & have very drivey dogs & are out there to win, win, win. Those people wouldn't even be interested in a dog like mine & in fact I have had cruel comments made about me & my dog on facebook a little while ago, which shook me up badly & made me even more nervous running in front of these people on the weekend, who I know were watching, just waiting for me to fail...but that's another story, which I am trying to put behind me If I don't give out any negatives during a run, then she runs well, except for the slowness in the weaves, which I would like to conquer. I agree, that increased motivation equals increased enjoyment. She is only missing out on times by a couple of seconds & over the weekend she did exceptionally well with only one fault in those which she didn't have clear rounds in. For a girl who has just gone into Masters, she gave them a run for their money & I am so proud of her performance. I would just like to see her get the same enjoyment out of the weaves in a trial as she does in training. :) Kavik....I am glad I am not the only one that gets nervous. :laugh: I am sure this is the whole problem. In training I am not nervous, but in a trial, I am sure it transfers to my dog. That is when I remind myself, that I am not playing for sheepstaions. I have worked on all her other problems that she has had in the two years that we have been trialing, & it has been fun training a "not so perfect" dog :) & if I could solve this problem with the slow weaves, then it would be the icing on the cake. I am glad that she is not the perfect agility dog, as it makes the journey so much more interesting & fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 (edited) Why I mentioned sheepstations..Vicky was that I was comparing myself & my dog to others who are very competitive (& a lot younger than me) & have very drivey dogs & are out there to win, win, win. Those people wouldn't even be interested in a dog like mine & in fact I have had cruel comments made about me & my dog on facebook a little while ago, which shook me up badly & made me even more nervous running in front of these people on the weekend, who I know were watching, just waiting for me to fail...but that's another story, which I am trying to put behind me I'm sorry people were cruel. How sad their lives must be to wish failure on others. I know lots of people who may appear competitive and only about winning, but very few who are actually like that, and even less still who wish bad things for others. They certainly do exist though, I feel sorry for them. Edited July 23, 2012 by Vickie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Sheena, maybe it is about the vibes you're giving her? You said that maybe she realizes training is about fun and trials are serious... maybe disqualify yourself first and then run at a trial, with nothing to lose. Vickie - the stares I have seen some people give their dog after non-performance at a trial leads me to believe there are a fair few people who take it more seriously than guru should Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheena Posted July 23, 2012 Author Share Posted July 23, 2012 Sheena, maybe it is about the vibes you're giving her? You said that maybe she realizes training is about fun and trials are serious... maybe disqualify yourself first and then run at a trial, with nothing to lose. Vickie - the stares I have seen some people give their dog after non-performance at a trial leads me to believe there are a fair few people who take it more seriously than guru should Yes Megan I am sure she picks up on my vibes (tension) & probably the weaves are the most tense of the lot. When something goes wrong, I just keep her running & praising her for all the good things. It's always my fault if she knocks a bar or takes an off course jump. And I always reward her at the end of a run regardless. I have started keeping a diary of our runs, so I can look back after the weekend & look at all the good things we have done :) as well as where we can improve & will do the same with the young fellow when he starts to trial right from the start. I think it is probably one way of remaining positive. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 sheena - also get some video of training sessions and of trials. I was just looking at a video of me running my dogs....what was I thinking?????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chezy Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 I get where you are coming from with ppls comments, you need to brush them off have fun and talk to the more positive ppl at trials, tune out the others I get comments all the time, [you need to run faster] translated -- loose weight , as I was leading out once sm1 said "yeah she is a big girl "I heard it and knew the voice , but tuned it out. even to the extent that a judge said 'loose weight "instead of congrats at presentations . Hey I'm active and out there doing stuff , not sitting on my fat arse , instead I run my fat arse round all over the place , like I give a fly #$%^&* what they think . It affects me not them . I tune it out and go on my way Hopefully you can do the same and then your dog may not pick up on it , if it is that ,it may help to give them all the finger and just have fun :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheena Posted July 23, 2012 Author Share Posted July 23, 2012 (edited) I get where you are coming from with ppls comments, you need to brush them off have fun and talk to the more positive ppl at trials, tune out the others I get comments all the time, [you need to run faster] translated -- loose weight , as I was leading out once sm1 said "yeah she is a big girl "I heard it and knew the voice , but tuned it out. even to the extent that a judge said 'loose weight "instead of congrats at presentations . Hey I'm active and out there doing stuff , not sitting on my fat arse , instead I run my fat arse round all over the place , like I give a fly #$%^&* what they think . It affects me not them . I tune it out and go on my way Hopefully you can do the same and then your dog may not pick up on it , if it is that ,it may help to give them all the finger and just have fun :D Where's the "like" button funny if it is the same people. :laugh: With friends like that you don't need enemies. Edited July 23, 2012 by sheena Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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