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DanRaff

Ndtf Vs Delta Dog Training Course?

106 posts in this topic

huski   

That sounds like a lack of impulse control to me, which is basically a lack of manners around the house. It would be so easy to teach the dog impulse control instead of resorting to punishment, and impulse control is something all dogs should know because it transfers to other things in their life, like reliable sit/stays, being able to call them away from prey animals, not bolting out the door etc.

I have a JRT x. I don't know if you know, but JRT's score the lowest on impulse control out of all dog breeds, and are also known for their high prey drive. Because I have taught him impulse control I can have food on the coffee table and leave to go and get something in the kitchen and he doesn't touch my food (I don't tell him "leave it" as I walk out either) and just the other day I called him off a lizard hunt. And I train completely without the use if positive punishment. Not because I'm against it, but just because I don't see the need for it when training obedience or manners. And it's not like I spend all day every day training the dog to achieve great recall and impulse control. I train a few days a week, but each session is about 5 minutes long. So it doesn't require loads of time and effort to get the dog to this level, it just requires commitment and desire.

And of course not everyone are great trainers, and for some people it makes sense to use some punishment for their pet dog, I'd rather see them use some punishment than rehoming the dog, but there's needing to use a little bit of punishment after you've taught the dog what you want using rewards, and there's reaching for an e-collar for something that would be easily fixed without it.

I think most people who know me and have met my dog would probably know I have reasonable idea about how to train driven dogs, and I’ve put a lot of work into getting my dog to a relatively good level of obedience. I can have her off leash anywhere, her recall is super, she works nicely under high distraction, when I am training her getting her to leave food or ignore distractions is easy and I have no problem with it. She can have food shoved under her nose and it’s like she can’t even see it. I trained all of that without any physical corrections and I am pretty happy with her level of obedience, she’s not a particularly easy dog to handle.

Counter surfing was something we tried to manage for a long time, and I could easily put her in a stay while I was in the kitchen and she wouldn’t steal anything – no problems. But there were still those occasions where she’d manage to steal something when no one was there, or if someone other than me was in the kitchen, or if I hadn’t actively put her away or in a stay etc. She would eat raw chillis, got extremely sick from eating 70% dark chocolate, a loaf of bread etc. I am not by any means saying that using the e-collar was the only option, but it was extremely effective, and considering this was a problem that was going on for years, I don’t believe that anything else would have fixed it that quickly or easily.

The e-collar was on a low stim and most people can’t feel the level I use on D, so it wasn’t causing her a lot of pain or stress, if anything it was irritating/annoying to her. It stopped counter surfing when I wasn’t there because it wasn’t associated with me. It only took maybe three stims to eliminate the behaviour. I don’t believe it’s effected our relationship at all, certainly I haven’t noticed a difference in how keen she is to work or her eagerness to learn or train.

I know more now than I did when D was little and I won’t allow counter surfing to develop with my next dog in the first place by managing it so the opportunity to steal food is never given to them, but if using an e-collar in this situation makes people think I am lazy, or lacking commitment, or a bad dog owner or trainer or cruel and horrible then so be it. I am happy with the decision. I would do it again and I am not going to lie about using a tool I’ve had success with because it’s easier to pretend I don’t use them or it makes me look better to say I’ve never used physical aversives when training my dogs. I am happy with my relationship with my dog, and how we work together as a team. If people think that using an e-collar has ruined or tainted that relationship then I can’t do much to change their minds. I honestly don’t think it has.

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corvus   

But sometimes we also need to take into consideration not just the effect on the particular dog we are training, we might need to take into account the safety or wellbeing of the people, or another dog, or the cat maybe (depending on what the behaviour is that we are trying to change).

Yeah, but the people at least are easy. You can outright ask them if they are happy or feel safe. I would look for similar behavioural indicators in other species as well. It's not hard to find them if you start looking. One of my doves is having a hard time with my other dove at the moment. They are fighting. One is apparently not bothered but the other I assume is. There are obvious indicators like he's vigilant around the other bird, but there are general changes that should be red flags as well. Like he got more flighty. He's easier to startle than he used to be and his flight distance is longer. It's very upsetting. I was going to rehome one, but have decided to try adding a hen instead. Pretty sure my dove is crying inside. I can only assume people whose doves cry probably go to hell.

Anyway, cats will do the same sort of things. Flight distance and tendency to bolt are quite telling. I always found it to be so with my hare as well. And recovery time. It's always going to be a balance of a number of factors. That's just good training, and where people find the balance will differ. I think that this is not a problem, which again is why the idea of quadrant-based training annoys me. The problem is not the quadrant, it's judging how it affects the parties involved. Objectively!

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corvus   

I get the gist of what you're saying Corvus - small sample size, multiple variables per trial and non-independence between trials all mean you can't draw valid conclusions from the results.

Right. :)

I'm not clear on what the nose pokes are indicating tho - are you thinking they are a stress behaviour, or a part of natural doggy expression that get diminished when he is unhappy or unsettled generally?

Oh, Erik is a chronic poker. There's usually a background level, but the frequency and what he pokes changes. Generally if the frequency goes up and stays up he's not a happy camper in general. Figure out what his problem is and it goes down again.

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corvus   

Corvus - I think understand what you are saying.

From a personal perspective, you challenge the assumptions and decisions I make (often unconsciously) about how I train my dog. You ask that I think (really, really think) about what I'm doing. You ask for objectivity (as far as is humanly possible). You ask for measurable outcomes.

Right. Yay! :)

FWIW - I think your approach and perspective (while definitely admirable) - is far, far beyond the average professional dog trainer (let alone the average pet owner). There aren't many Bob Baileys out there, teaching dogs not to bark at the front door.

Yeah, maybe it is. But I'm not asking people to emulate me. I just want them to think twice before they assume what they are doing is what they think they are doing. There is always another (or several other) critters involved that don't have a voice. At the end of the day we all have to make a decision and we probably won't know how it's going to turn out until we do it. That's okay, because that's life. We make of it what we will. It's hard to ask our voiceless partners in training what they feel about it all, but that doesn't mean we speak for them. Maybe we just reserve judgement until we can figure out how to hear them. Reserving judgement leaves you open-minded and maybe more likely to see the evidence either way that having made a judgement call might otherwise blind you to. I think that's a fair compromise, and something that everyone can do.

I figure decisiveness is for training, analysis for afterwards, and open-mindedness forever.

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Weasels   

Oh, Erik is a chronic poker. There's usually a background level, but the frequency and what he pokes changes. Generally if the frequency goes up and stays up he's not a happy camper in general. Figure out what his problem is and it goes down again.

Gotcha, thanks :) Also, very cute :p

--

I don't think this thread has gone as far OT as it may first appear, since the repeated discussion when someone asks "NDTF or Delta?" is about Delta 'only teaching part of dog training'. The argument has been made that if you really want to be all things to all people, doing a Cert. level course alone isn't going to get you there, regardless of who you do it with. I've studied animals formally for 8 years and have been researching them for money for 2 years and I still learn more about them every day :) - and I'm in a much more straightforward field than behaviour, which will keep many many people employed for a long time!

Philosophy aside, I think that there are segments in the marketplace for both Delta and NDTF trainers (and a bunch of other approaches). If one or the other is what you are happier practicing and you wish to be able to provide that affiliation on your marketing, then you will attract like-minded clients.

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1344253014[/url]' post='5921901']
1344248264[/url]' post='5921779']

Sorry to stay OT, but wouldn't keeping the counter clear of surfing rewards also worked?

Also sorry to stay OT!

I was managing this behavior, no food on the benches when I went out!

Unfortunately, to a Labrador, apparently pain killers are food..

I think managing a behaviour can be really dangerous, I slipped up Once. Only once. It landed both my dogs at the emergency vet.

I'm so sad for what happened to you boys but wouldn't putting the meds up and safely away in cabinets prevented this? I've never had this problem, although never had a Lab, maybe having children makes me more careful with meds?

I thought I was being careful though, nothing edible is left on benches. Riddick had been left out of his crate for 4 days in a row, nothing happened.

I placed the meds above the bench, ontop of the microwave. Not even thinking that would equal in reach. But I was wrong.

If I had addressed the issue when I first knew about it, rather than trying to tip toe around and manage it instead, this never would have happened. Thats what I mean about management being inherently dangerous. It relies too much on people being perfect.

Each to their own, like I said before I am sure there were many ways that you could have trained it, this just worked best for me and there is nothing wrong with how I trained it.

Yah, but how do you know when you only tried one thing? What happened to what's best for dog and handler? Now it's just what's best for you? Did Daisy think the e-collar was best? Assuming it was Daisy who was in trouble again.

Rhetorical questions and I'm not picking on the method or you in particular, I'm trying to get people to think critically about their training decisions and why they make the ones they do and how they can tell it was a good decision after the fact. We have to be accountable at some point.

On management... it's not inherently dangerous. Failed management is dangerous. I'd far rather depend on a leash and harness than a recall, but if the leash snaps I have good recalls to fall back on. Hopefully the leash won't snap! I've had prey animals in the same house as very predatory dogs. I factored in failed management and had two levels of management in place for the times when someone left a door open accidentally. Never had a close call. A couple of months ago Erik swallowed a fish hook attached to a couple of metres of fishing twine on the beach. Can't tell him to leave it if we didn't see him pick it up. The week before he had a tooth extracted after fracturing it on something or other. While we were overseas one of the dogs he was staying with took a piece out of his ear. Stuff happens. Failing to anticipate disaster is not a failure of management. It's just bad luck.

Edited 'cause I'm tired and sick of it.

Failed management is different than plain bad luck. I don't see failed management as bad luck. Its just human nature. No person is perfect. Every single one of us has done something silly, changed lanes without checking. Left the keys in the door and had to walk all the way back from the train station. Forgot our wallets at home.

That's not bad luck, that's just part of being human. Nobody is perfect, management relies on perfection. Sometimes it might work yes. Then others it doesn't, and it ends in total disaster.

Say you have a large aggressive dog, instead of taking this dog to a trainer because you don't like that idea, you decide to work around the aggression. You walk your dog at odd hours, you double bolt the gates with signs everywhere. The dog is in his crate whenever people are around. The list of management related ideas goes on.

Then one day, 2 or 3 things go wrong. You're in a hurry, and you don't lock the gate properly. Then the delivery guy comes early while you're still out, got to enter the back gate, finding it only bolted but not locked. Your large dog gets out as someone is walking past with their toy poodle. Your large dog attacks and kills that poodle.

Is that bad luck? Or management failing due to natural human error. Bad luck is being the poodle owner, who just happened to walk past at the wrong moment.

Edited by lovemesideways

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megan_   

Regardless of method, some dogs will always need management. Even if you now train riddick to never get on the benchtops, ii doubt you'll ever leave the mess there again? I hope that doesn't sound like I'm having a go because I'm not! I have a dog that will never be allowed to play with strange dogs. Ever. Yet I have seen behaviourists and continue to train her. She has improved greatly but I expect to manage her for life.

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Kavik   

I'm the same as megan - I have a dog aggro dog that will have to be managed for life (she is nearly 13 years old now!). I continue to train her and work with her (mostly fun drive related stuff learned from SG) but she will never be allowed to play with strange dogs. I can introduce her to puppies that will live with me (she is fine with Diesel and Kaos who were introduced as puppies).

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Regardless of method, some dogs will always need management. Even if you now train riddick to never get on the benchtops, ii doubt you'll ever leave the mess there again? I hope that doesn't sound like I'm having a go because I'm not! I have a dog that will never be allowed to play with strange dogs. Ever. Yet I have seen behaviourists and continue to train her. She has improved greatly but I expect to manage her for life.

I'm the same as megan - I have a dog aggro dog that will have to be managed for life (she is nearly 13 years old now!). I continue to train her and work with her (mostly fun drive related stuff learned from SG) but she will never be allowed to play with strange dogs. I can introduce her to puppies that will live with me (she is fine with Diesel and Kaos who were introduced as puppies).

Both are good points, and you're right even with all the training I will be putting in, I wont be just leaving things out willy nilly.

I guess I would say that, Management alone is dangerous, but in combination with work and training its the best you can do. I still think management by itself is inherently dangerous though.

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PAX   

I think if you have chronic bench surfers and are not prepared or happy to use a management plan, the best alternative choice would be be scat mats. Using an e collar relys on management, you need to be watching, my reason for not agreeing with it.

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PAX   
1344708650[/url]' post='5926508']
1344682893[/url]' post='5926355']

Using an e collar relys on management, you need to be watching.

All training requires you to watch the dog...

A scat mat?

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Using an e collar relys on management, you need to be watching.

All training requires you to watch the dog...

A scat mat?

You got me there - but a scat mat is poor training. I would almost consider it management. I used something similar to a scat mat initially on our dalmatian and she just learnt to jump around it.

Teaching the dog not to jump onto any bench, or any sofa is a much better way of training.

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Luke W   

Using an e collar relys on management, you need to be watching.

All training requires you to watch the dog...

A scat mat?

You got me there - but a scat mat is poor training. I would almost consider it management. I used something similar to a scat mat initially on our dalmatian and she just learnt to jump around it.

Teaching the dog not to jump onto any bench, or any sofa is a much better way of training.

How would you train it without an e-collar?

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Using an e collar relys on management, you need to be watching.

All training requires you to watch the dog...

A scat mat?

You got me there - but a scat mat is poor training. I would almost consider it management. I used something similar to a scat mat initially on our dalmatian and she just learnt to jump around it.

Teaching the dog not to jump onto any bench, or any sofa is a much better way of training.

How would you train it without an e-collar?

Our dally is soft as :p

I just have to say ah a few times and she'll never do anything again. She also generalises her training (sometimes a little too much) without me needing to. Teaching her not to jump on one bench will stop her from jumping on every bench in the house.

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Remove the rewards of counter surfing. Never ever leave any food on the counter for the dog to get. Problem solved.

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Weasels   

I would guess that the main factor in training against countersurfing is how much reinfocement the dog has had for it in the past. In Huski's case she said the dog had a strong history of it so that would make it so much harder to break.

In my house we eat all our meals at a low coffee table (kelpie nose-height) right in the middle of 3 couches and 2 dog beds which is where our dog spend about 85% of their time during the day. I'm not really interested in moving my plate everytime I take my eyes off the table. Like NotMidol said I spent time when they fist arrived saying "ah" and redirecting them to their mat or one of the couches when they sniffed at our food, but I think the most important training thing we do is heaps (a few times every day) of self-control exercises around food - putting that mental space in between seeing the food and eating the food where they have to decide if it's appropriate or not - so just because they can see it doesn't mean they can have it.

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Remove the rewards of counter surfing. Never ever leave any food on the counter for the dog to get. Problem solved.

Until you inevitably forget. Or someone looks after your dog, or you have guests over.

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