Maremmas In Show.

[espinay2]

Ok now I do not and have never required my personal dogs to go sit with the sheep or the horse 24/7. I DO require that

all the dogs here are polite to said sheep and horse. This is quite different tho. Now I do have the ability to help

with suggestions on training from experiance gained here and there. If I believe I am out of my depth (like with chooks)

then I arrange for a breeder friend with extencive experiance in that area to help.

I also realise that much is said about pups needing to be born and raised with the stock they will guard. I do not believe that to be the case at all for many reasons and different experiances. HOWEVER being able to work out what stock

a pup will be happy with is the key. I have had FANTASTIC dogs that were quite racisist really. One would be happy with sheep and horses but HATED goats with passion and was under the impression that chooks were fast food.

Others have been good with white chooks but not so good with brown or black chooks.. Go figger.....

I LOVE observing and learning.

I've found similar - they don't need to be born in a paddock with their stock to develop into good workers - I think it was Espinay who pointed out that lots of rescues (who may never have been with stock) also achieve this. It is a pretty individual thing from dog to dog.

Most of what I've learned about working LGDs has been through trial & error, as you receive a lot of conflicting advice. I made lots of mistakes with my 1st couple of dogs but we got there in the end - it's a big learning curve and so very different from training a dog for the showring, obedience or herding (which is all I'd ever done).

What you say about finding the key to each puppy is so true (I also have a racist dog - he loathes red goats but loves his standard coloured ones :) ) - different strengths in individual dogs will help decide where they are best placed in a working situation. One of my boys is a brilliant "big paddock" dog - he patrols really efficiently, likes having lots of space & is quite forceful in his job. I have another girl who is just sheer magic with kidding does in a smaller lot - she's exceptionally gentle with the babies & knows before I do who is getting ready to birth. They will let you know what sort of a workload they are happy and comfortable with.

I still get a kick out of watching them with their charges, they have favourites that they get attached to which is pretty cute & they will scold naughty ones. The way they coordinate when there is a threat is awesome - I have 3 boys that have worked together for a few years now & the teamwork is incredible, 1 drops back with the flock, the other 2 streak across the paddock - all it takes is that "danger" bark.

In my experience, as pups you need to "set them up to succeed" & not put them in a position where things can really go wrong - so long as the instinct/ability is there, lots of opportunity, encouragement when they do well & some patience, is what will result in confident, dedicated working LGDs.

This is where we need a LIKE button. There is nothing to add to this post, it speaks the truth in spades.

got to agree wholeheartedly with this

[Are You Serious Jo]

That is pretty much what I have read about them too. You have to be able to be flexible with each dog and know what to look for to get them into the best environment for them.

[Tralee]

:laugh:

Maybe you could all meet up together.

You could aggrandise your self-congratulatory remarks all day.

Because I have a different view, it doesn't make it wrong.

But I also allow others to have a different view, that's the difference.

[dog_fan]

:laugh:

Maybe you could all meet up together.

You could aggrandise your self-congratulatory remarks all day.

.

Because I have a different view, it doesn't make it wrong.

But I also allow others to have a different view, that's the difference.

From what I have read you are very rude to anyone who doesn't share your view.

[mixeduppup]

Yes, your thinly veiled passive aggression goes completely unnoticed.

[casowner]

:laugh:

Maybe you could all meet up together.

You could aggrandise your self-congratulatory remarks all day.

Because I have a different view, it doesn't make it wrong.

But I also allow others to have a different view, that's the difference.

Unless you can edit other members posts the only person that allows people to express their views is Troy as he can remove them.

I own a different LGD breed and have had 2 - CAO & ASD and both are so very different but having a breeder that I can ask advice on how to train a LGD breed is very important, proven working lines are what is also a key factor in my opinion, they can be as pretty as you like but they need to be able to work. Luckily I have the bonus of working lines and a very pretty well put together dog - bonus

[casowner]

I'm just wondering how many other people have built a fence like this, in their backyard, at their town property.

Maybe if you did build a fence like that in your town property the bitch owned by someone else may not have escaped your yard :)

[BlackJaq]

I'm just wondering how many other people have built a fence like this, in their backyard, at their town property.

Maybe if you did build a fence like that in your town property the bitch owned by someone else may not have escaped your yard :)

Nor the ones that ended up being declared dangerous :p

[Steve]

I cant build a fence like that on my property even though Ive got lots of acres and sheep - definitely couldnt do it in town either - because in NSW electric fences cant be used near dogs as its against POCTAA and Id go a mile for cruelty as my sheep always have dogs with them.

Also might be an idea to swap from plastic bowls to stainless steel as sometimes the chemicals in plastic bowls cause lightening of the nose.

[BlackJaq]

I cant build a fence like that on my property even though Ive got lots of acres and sheep - definitely couldnt do it in town either - because in NSW electric fences cant be used near dogs as its against POCTAA and Id go a mile for cruelty as my sheep always have dogs with them.

Also might be an idea to swap from plastic bowls to stainless steel as sometimes the chemicals in plastic bowls cause lightening of the nose.

You're kidding..?!

I know a lot of people who do use them along the bottom of fences to discourage digging and jumping up on the fence and was going to use them myself as well.... And I already use them for my horses and all our dogs have learnt what happens when you touch the white cord even though it is not intended for them... Are there any other ridiculous laws in NSW that we should know about?? Apart from not being allowed to use electric shock collars.. But electric collars for invisible fences are cool.. Which is the biggest contradiction of all, no?

[zoiboy]

http://www.leadingsheep.com.au/2012/09/guardian-animals-protecting-livestock-maremmas/

This is a long listen but really interesting. It was very interesting that Ninnian

mentioned, in answer to a question, that he culls pups with pink pigment from the working

population and gives a great reason why.

[Tralee]

I cant build a fence like that on my property even though Ive got lots of acres and sheep - definitely couldnt do it in town either - because in NSW electric fences cant be used near dogs as its against POCTAA and Id go a mile for cruelty as my sheep always have dogs with them.

Also might be an idea to swap from plastic bowls to stainless steel as sometimes the chemicals in plastic bowls cause lightening of the nose.

So are you saying the fence is illegal without knowing the voltage and misquoting the law?

The law states that the electric thread must be 15mm off the fence.

Can't have it both ways.

Edited May 4, 2013 by Tralee

[Tralee]

http://www.leadingsheep.com.au/2012/09/guardian-animals-protecting-livestock-maremmas/

This is a long listen but really interesting. It was very interesting that Ninnian

mentioned, in answer to a question, that he culls pups with pink pigment from the working

population and gives a great reason why.

He makes an interesting admission at the beginning. " .. down that path we've learnt a lot, we've made a lot of mistakes, and I'm still not sure that we're doing everything as well as we possibly can and there's still a lot to learn as well."

He treats his dogs like chattell, they're expendable, what else would anyone expect!

Whereas my puppy owners say things like: "Lumen is all that we hoped for and more. He has a great personality - fantastic family dog and working dog. Out in the vineyard, everyone that visits our cellar door falls in love with him!" 15/10.2010. Ponda Estate wines

Anyway you miss the point entirely.

Noone can say that culling the pups removes the gene, yet; other genes are being removed with them.

That is simply reckless.

I doubt I'll be quoting him any further.

Edited May 4, 2013 by Tralee

[Are You Serious Jo]

I'll go check google scholar to see if any papers are in the vet literature about noses and melanoma. Tralee, cancer doesn't spring up overnight, it takes years. How old is Lumen, how long as he been a working dog? Of course they won't see melanoma straight away, it doesn't work like that.

[zoiboy]

He makes an interesting admission at the beginning. " .. down that path we've learnt a lot, we've made a lot of mistakes, and I'm still not sure that we're doing everything as well as we possibly can and there's still a lot to learn as well."

So you have not made any mistakes or had any learning curves that were not always what you expected or hoped?

He treats his dogs like chattell, they're expendable, what else would anyone expect!

no i do not believe he treats the dogs like chattels at all. They are trusted and much needed working dogs, they protect his livelyhood. What on earth is wrong with that?

Whereas my puppy owners say things like: "Lumen is all that we hoped for and more. He has a great personality - fantastic family dog and working dog. Out in the vineyard, everyone that visits our cellar door falls in love with him!" 15/10.2010. Ponda Estate wines

i have a few puppy buyers who say things like this as well. I also have puppy buyers who tell me how much the dog has saved them in money time and sheer emotional stress just by doing what they are bred to do. Thats what I like to know.

Anyway you miss the point entirely.

Noone can say that culling the pups removes the gene, yet; other genes are being removed with them.

That is simply reckless.

I doubt I'll be quoting him any further.

i did n ot believe for a moment that you would like him. shame that you are not listening to the SCIENCE in his presentation and in the presentation by Lee Allen from Biosecurity Queensland. Lots of science behind them both actually.

[Are You Serious Jo]

Tralee is anti-science, he has said so many times, it's all about Dog :laugh: I'll still look for papers though, maybe one day he might listen.

[dog_fan]

Tralee is anti-science, he has said so many times, it's all about Dog :laugh: I'll still look for papers though, maybe one day he might listen.

It doesn't matter who is listening, what matters is that any inaccurate statements are corrected for others who read this thread.

[Are You Serious Jo]

Which is the reason so many have been banging on about health issues

[Tralee]

I'll go check google scholar to see if any papers are in the vet literature about noses and melanoma. Tralee, cancer doesn't spring up overnight, it takes years. How old is Lumen, how long has he been a working dog? Of course they won't see melanoma straight away, it doesn't work like that.

Well he isn't in Queesland, he's in Victoria.

I have been living on the Queensland border now for nearly 7 years.

The incidence of skin cancer compared to the Southern States and even places like Broken Hill is alarming.

Of course, we are on tender hooks about the possibility of melanoma, but not any more than the possibility of hypothyroidism, hip displasia or any other malattia.

Lumen's owners were fully and completely appraised of his breeding. They were happy to receive him even with the opportunity to take a smaller pup.

The owners and I are in regular contact, as are several of my puppy homes.

I thought your post was well reasoned and sensible, hence my response.

I'll go check google scholar to see if any papers are in the vet literature about noses and melanoma.

This is a bit of a witch hunt.

How old is Lumen, how long has he been a working dog?

I could reply its none of your business or anybody else's.

The management of the dog is between the current owners and I.

But I have been transparent in the interests of the dogs.

I didn't paint their nose red. The dog came out like that.

I've heard no castigation of the two breeders from where the bitch and dog were sourced by any of the respondents who are too willing to jump on the band wagon.

I think that's a bit prejudicial, don't you?

[Tralee]

He makes an interesting admission at the beginning. " .. down that path we've learnt a lot, we've made a lot of mistakes, and I'm still not sure that we're doing everything as well as we possibly can and there's still a lot to learn as well."

So you have not made any mistakes or had any learning curves that were not always what you expected or hoped?

He treats his dogs like chattell, they're expendable, what else would anyone expect!

no i do not believe he treats the dogs like chattels at all. They are trusted and much needed working dogs, they protect his livelyhood. What on earth is wrong with that?

Whereas my puppy owners say things like: "Lumen is all that we hoped for and more. He has a great personality - fantastic family dog and working dog. Out in the vineyard, everyone that visits our cellar door falls in love with him!" 15/10.2010. Ponda Estate wines

i have a few puppy buyers who say things like this as well. I also have puppy buyers who tell me how much the dog has saved them in money time and sheer emotional stress just by doing what they are bred to do. Thats what I like to know.

Anyway you miss the point entirely.

Noone can say that culling the pups removes the gene, yet; other genes are being removed with them.

That is simply reckless.

I doubt I'll be quoting him any further.

i did n ot believe for a moment that you would like him. shame that you are not listening to the SCIENCE in his presentation and in the presentation by Lee Allen from Biosecurity Queensland. Lots of science behind them both actually.

Umm, do you know how to quote? lol.

But thanks for the video, despite how people are trying cast aspersions on me I am not a complete dullard, and I think people know that which is why I get the pointy end so often.