What To Call It? Pocket Training?

[corvus]

You can also reward 'out of position' if you want to set the dog up for moving back into position and things like that. It is probably advanced training. I would suggest beginners just stick to rewarding in position. If that means they have to use food instead of toys, I think that is all fine. Using toys or play or something like that for a reward depends on great timing with your marker and lots of contrast in your behaviour and your dog needs to be pretty savvy with the training game IMO. I consider rewarding with food a basic foundation skill for dog and trainer. Use as much play or whatever as you like, but get your timing down first, and your head around the effects of reward placement.

Oh, snap Paddles. :)

Edited June 18, 2013 by corvus

[Weasels]

Paddles I'm sure the others will answer too but rewarding out of position is generally a side-effect of using toys rather than food. So for eg. the dog heels nicely, you mark and release, and the dog leaps out and gets a game of tug.

I reward mostly with food but use both tug and ball as a higher value reward (ball being the ultimate). Problem being (especially with tug) if you always release in front of you the dog will usually work slightly too far forward out of anticipation. I am extra conscious therefore to mix it up with the ball and throw it away from where the dog is anticipating, with tug it's harder but if I kind of spin on the spot after release it helps keep 'em guessing :)

ah, I get it now.. I mainly use food, so he tends to reward in position I guess, unless I'm practicing coming into position? in which case I throw the food?

It sounded like you do from your description :) You don't need to always reward in position as long as you either don't systematically release to a certain direction, or if you are confident the dog is keeping the correct position. Can be hard to tell the latter sometimes though, so if you can find a tame obedience competitor or judge they should be happy to let you know :laugh:

Edit: more snap! :)

Edited June 18, 2013 by TheLBD

[huski]

I think I'm missing something here... when you all talk about rewarding in position? you mean, when the dog is where you want him to be? ie heel? (beside leg) so for instance (talking about milo) I spent a long time teaching him to come into heel (I lift my hand, say heel, and he swings in so that his head is between my hand and leg. this was done with food, over small incriments. I have to a lesser extent done the same thing with flash.. so from what some of you are saying, you don't reward this behaviour (anymore? ever?) with milo, this is something that periodically is done as a training exercise on it's own, but as a rule, a signal that we are going to begin heelwork training. Can I ask you, Huski, Wobbly to break down a bit what you mean?

On a positive note, all people with short dogs... I could call this boob hand, not pocket hand, which really isn't comfortable, and if I forget to change before I go out, the slobber down the side of my breast gets some weird looks...

Like LBD said rewarding in position is something that people usually do when using food, in heel work it would mean you feed the dog for being in the correct position as you are heeling or when the dog is at heel in a stationary position.

Another example is in stays, you would leave the dog and return and reward the dog whilst it is in the stay position.

Even when I use food for drive work I don't reward in position, one thing I see fairly often is that the dog is sometimes inadvertently rewarded for being calm and out of drive. Depending on your goals, this can hinder progress. However like I said many people do it successfully, that's the beauty of training we all have many ways to achieve great results!

[huski]

If you heeled like Denise in Victoria half the judges would ping you for crowding!

Really? I just watched the video in the OP again, and I can't see the dog touching her in a way that would get her pinged for crowding?

Some judges definitely take a tough stance on what is considered 'crowding'!

[Wobbly]

What is your aim in teaching this Wobbly? Focus? to get pivots?

I have been playing with it for pivots the last couple of days and it has been working well. I don't need physical contact with the dogs as they are watching the hand and following it without the contact.

My aim is just sustained focus right now, (I have conditioned lack of focus on me over years, it worked really well for the huge bushwalks when she was younger) but I like to teach new stuff to her, so I thought this one might be cool and useful. New stuff keeps it interesting for us and my trick teaching skills need the practice, I figure the more I teach her the better both Jarrah and I get at all the skills we're missing, I also get the excuse to over reward in teaching new behaviours, which she loves. I like this idea of following the hand without contact!

[Wobbly]

O yeah Corvus, I am so coming to chicken camp to learn to teach poultry in motion, I will be at the Penrith one. If you're at that one, come say hello, I am the one with the long hair all over my face. XD

[sheena]

I don't always reward in position, but I will "mark" with a clicker when she is in position. Sometimes I will reward down the seam of my pants into her mouth or I might click the position then throw the treat for the reward then hopefully she will put herself back into position. With most of my clicker work, with whatever I am teaching, I just mark the position & throw the treat, to shape her into coming back into position by her self....does that make sense

[ness]

I still think regardless of your training method placement of reinforcement is important. Hence why things like the use of magnetic balls/tugs are a brilliant invention when using a toy reward for heeling. A lot of the toy related problems in my view come from the dog anticipating subtle cues from the handler and being able to remove these by releasing the dog to grab a toy hands free is fantastic.

I have also released a dog to a tug in position or used placement of the toy to encourage or tweak position.

[Wobbly]

That makes lots of sense Sheena. It is really great to hear everyone's views on this. I am learning lots.

I think for myself right now I need to pay more attention to rewarding in position partly because my marker timing can be bad, and partly because I can see Jarrah could easily get into a habit of moving out of position in anticipation of a reward if I always reward out of position. But I am really happy to hear it's not the end of the world when I mess it up occasionally.

[JulesP]

If I want to use a treat to move the dog out of position (which isn't really a reward), I will reward in position and then they get a 'freebie' to move them out of position. I've found too much treat throwing leads to too much ground sniffing and looking for treats. Plus I want the good thing to very obviously come from me, 'Mummy has the treats'.

[huski]

If I want to use a treat to move the dog out of position (which isn't really a reward), I will reward in position and then they get a 'freebie' to move them out of position. I've found too much treat throwing leads to too much ground sniffing and looking for treats. Plus I want the good thing to very obviously come from me, 'Mummy has the treats'.

I never used throwing treats on the ground with my beagle, there are lots of dynamic ways to reward with food other than just throwing it on the ground.

For me rewarding out of position vs giving the dog the reward in position is about creating a reward experience,creating a game of it so it becomes an experience shared with you, making it unpredictable also helps to keep the dogs focus.

[corvus]

O yeah Corvus, I am so coming to chicken camp to learn to teach poultry in motion, I will be at the Penrith one. If you're at that one, come say hello, I am the one with the long hair all over my face. XD

Woot! Yes, I'll be at the Penrith one. :) So happy you will be there. I'm sure you will get heaps out of it.

Edited June 19, 2013 by corvus

[Wobbly]

Yay Corvus, I managed to score a trainer spot too! "D "D I am really looking forward to it! All the topics covered are exactly the things I need to learn and improve upon.

I have to concentrate on not dropping treats first, never mind throwing them!

So today I went to the quarry for swim/fetch/tug, I tried to get her heeling for tug in that environment, and she just can't do it, she can sit and stay and give me eye contact, but heeling still needs too much focus for her to be able to do it in that state of mind. I wished I had a camera to film her in this environment, I think I could work on making her brain more clear in this context, to allow her to control herself well under that level of arousal. I have a procedure for it that Denise & Lisa wrote for me in the course, I'm not sure I grasp all the nuances of it behaviourally yet, but the step by step procedure I can follow well, and real understanding will come as I see the results emerge, as always. She can definitely hold a sit stay, so that's a really good start. Miss Jarrah is one thing, I can only imagine what a really well bred Malinois is like when she's giving it her all!

[Weasels]

So today I went to the quarry for swim/fetch/tug, I tried to get her heeling for tug in that environment, and she just can't do it, she can sit and stay and give me eye contact, but heeling still needs too much focus for her to be able to do it in that state of mind. I wished I had a camera to film her in this environment, I think I could work on making her brain more clear in this context, to allow her to control herself well under that level of arousal.

I have the same problem when I have a ball in sight, but I'm making progress by sending them right around me to heel, to a hand target on my left, then throwing the ball. The zooming-around movement is easier for them when they're all crazy and the hand target give them something to focus on and makes them stop (my recall criteris is a hand target already so that helped). Now we're just incrementally increasing the time they have to hold their nose on the target at heel before release :)

Oh and I drop food everywhere too, and am not making any progress with that at all :laugh:

[ness]

Note to TheLBD = we will have to discuss this food handling bit its not helping the kelps = HOMEWORK assignment cut up treats into bite size bits and don't use things that are crumbly (sermon over) :laugh:

[Weasels]

Note to TheLBD = we will have to discuss this food handling bit its not helping the kelps = HOMEWORK assignment cut up treats into bite size bits and don't use things that are crumbly (sermon over) :laugh:

Ah but if I'd cut up the chicken I would have been running even later! :p It's just one big balancing act of chaos in LBD-land :laugh:

[Nekhbet]

We're doing a little better. I know Nekhbet has her head in her hands in despair at the technique & treat rate - my brain goes out the window on camera, hopefully this effect will recede soon. Fading the hand signal for heeling here, it's kind of working, sort of, a bit, maybe.

Your technique is great I think you're doing really well. The only thing I'd yell at you about if you were on the field is

DONT MOVE INTO POSITION FOR THE DOG :laugh: the dog moves to you, NEVER move into position for the dog or it never learns to keep in its mind to adjust its own positioning.

Also, make sure the dog understands the start of the exercise. Stop, get the dogs attention, and move off. When you reward the dog dont cup your hand as you lower the dogs head down, do that long enough and you will find if you praise the dog dips it's head out of habit. While the dog is looking feed in that position. Instead of cupping just use a flat collar and a leash, have leash in right hand, treats in left. When you turn anyway you should be asking for the dogs attention as you start turning so it knows to keep paying attention as you change direction and you wont need to cup :)

Out" is a new behaviour, Steve K9 pro fixed it for me (taught with no corrections!) I've graduated from an instant tug reward for an out to a more low key food reward now, I could stop rewarding every time now really, over rewarding known behaviours is a really, really bad habit of mine, shamefully on display here, she's good at "out' these days, immediate rewards for it should be random now I think

You're offering a dog a lower reward to relinquish what it finds valuable. The reward for the out command is NOT the toy but your promise of interacting with the dog with that toy again. There is a difference. If the toy is seen to be a reward without you involved it's why the out can be difficult. Also when you ask for out hold the toy still and only ask once, I teach young dogs with two toys, one in each hand. Stop your toy, show the other toy and as the dog spits to go for the other 'OUT!!" then wiggle the new toy and get the dog to interact a big before it grabs it.

I think you're doing a marvelous job

[corvus]

Yay Corvus, I managed to score a trainer spot too! "D "D I am really looking forward to it! All the topics covered are exactly the things I need to learn and improve upon.

I have to concentrate on not dropping treats first, never mind throwing them!

So today I went to the quarry for swim/fetch/tug, I tried to get her heeling for tug in that environment, and she just can't do it, she can sit and stay and give me eye contact, but heeling still needs too much focus for her to be able to do it in that state of mind. I wished I had a camera to film her in this environment, I think I could work on making her brain more clear in this context, to allow her to control herself well under that level of arousal. I have a procedure for it that Denise & Lisa wrote for me in the course, I'm not sure I grasp all the nuances of it behaviourally yet, but the step by step procedure I can follow well, and real understanding will come as I see the results emerge, as always. She can definitely hold a sit stay, so that's a really good start. Miss Jarrah is one thing, I can only imagine what a really well bred Malinois is like when she's giving it her all!

I think you've got all your priorities right. :) First learn to walk, then you can run. ;) Are you doing Leslie McDevitt's off switch game as well as Give Me A Break? You could also practice your shaping/capturing skills and teach Jarrah to take a breath on cue. It's awesome. Rock solid down-stays are awesome as well. Build it all up in little steps and you'll have great foundations and be able to do just about anything. I would seriously consider the Relaxation Protocol.

I had a young WL GSD in my study who took the longest time to get through it and so we got to know each other pretty well. He was a bit of a needy greeter. In an effort to compromise with him I one day taught him to put his paws on the wall instead of me and I'd trade him a thumping good hug. This brief compromise came to a sudden end when a day or two later as he started winding up for some more body slamming and grabbing me in a bear hug while he jumped up and down. I slapped the wall and he instantly threw himself so hard at it that he managed to bruise my wrist and he nearly ended up sprawled on the ground from the force of his rebound. I really like my 14kg dog. When he does something crazy and I get in the way it doesn't hurt so much. :p

[Wobbly]

My apologies for the late reply, I have been rather caught up with medical stuffs the last few days.

I have the same problem when I have a ball in sight, but I'm making progress by sending them right around me to heel, to a hand target on my left, then throwing the ball. The zooming-around movement is easier for them when they're all crazy and the hand target give them something to focus on and makes them stop (my recall criteris is a hand target already so that helped). Now we're just incrementally increasing the time they have to hold their nose on the target at heel before release :)

Oh and I drop food everywhere too, and am not making any progress with that at all :laugh:

That's a good idea LBD, My hand target is solid enough, she could follow it in a high arousal state state. I'm not really sure how much adrenalised activity like swim/fetch/tug I will be able to take her out for in the next few months. Looks like I will be having a kidney removed, which I expect will mean I have to keep it all very low key.

Note to TheLBD = we will have to discuss this food handling bit its not helping the kelps = HOMEWORK assignment cut up treats into bite size bits and don't use things that are crumbly (sermon over) :laugh:

Crumbly food lecture seconded, I used felafel the other day, very poor choice of treat, much sniffing ensued. :laugh:

DONT MOVE INTO POSITION FOR THE DOG :laugh: the dog moves to you, NEVER move into position for the dog or it never learns to keep in its mind to adjust its own positioning.

Dog goes faster I go faster, dog goes even faster, so do i. :laugh:

Also, make sure the dog understands the start of the exercise. Stop, get the dogs attention, and move off. When you reward the dog dont cup your hand as you lower the dogs head down, do that long enough and you will find if you praise the dog dips it's head out of habit. While the dog is looking feed in that position. Instead of cupping just use a flat collar and a leash, have leash in right hand, treats in left. When you turn anyway you should be asking for the dogs attention as you start turning so it knows to keep paying attention as you change direction and you wont need to cup :)

This is me trying to reward in position, after she's broken position, by forcing the dog back into position. I hadn't really consciously realised this but I do this, often. Oh dear. :laugh:

You're offering a dog a lower reward to relinquish what it finds valuable. The reward for the out command is NOT the toy but your promise of interacting with the dog with that toy again. There is a difference. If the toy is seen to be a reward without you involved it's why the out can be difficult. Also when you ask for out hold the toy still and only ask once, I teach young dogs with two toys, one in each hand. Stop your toy, show the other toy and as the dog spits to go for the other 'OUT!!" then wiggle the new toy and get the dog to interact a big before it grabs it.

Oh yes! You are so right. The other day in swim/fetch/tug, food would not have worked. But her out is very solid now, she knows it's the play cue, she doesn't quite spit it into my hands enthusiatically yet on cue like Steve's dog, but (hoping) we are building to that. I have eliminated most factors that led to her possessiveness, I think. I was using food to shape a retrieve on really low value items, and got into the habit of giving her a treat after she puts an item in my hand, apparently we both got patterned doing that. She'll take the food out of habit from the retrieve shaping, but tends to spit it out in a tug contxt. I am so daft, I should realise how valueless food is in a tug context given she does usually spit it out. You're right, food is not what she wants at all if we're playing tug, though she does love it for our food shaped retrieve practice where we don't tug at all.

I think you're doing a marvelous job

Yay thank you! That's really cool to hear from you! Makes me very happy. :D :D

I think you've got all your priorities right. :) First learn to walk, then you can run. ;) Are you doing Leslie McDevitt's off switch game as well as Give Me A Break? You could also practice your shaping/capturing skills and teach Jarrah to take a breath on cue. It's awesome. Rock solid down-stays are awesome as well. Build it all up in little steps and you'll have great foundations and be able to do just about anything. I would seriously consider the Relaxation Protocol.

I had a young WL GSD in my study who took the longest time to get through it and so we got to know each other pretty well. He was a bit of a needy greeter. In an effort to compromise with him I one day taught him to put his paws on the wall instead of me and I'd trade him a thumping good hug. This brief compromise came to a sudden end when a day or two later as he started winding up for some more body slamming and grabbing me in a bear hug while he jumped up and down. I slapped the wall and he instantly threw himself so hard at it that he managed to bruise my wrist and he nearly ended up sprawled on the ground from the force of his rebound. I really like my 14kg dog. When he does something crazy and I get in the way it doesn't hurt so much. :p

I am really looking forward to training chickens! Animal behaviour science is fascinating.

I was just rereading the breathing section in CU yesterday, Jarrah's always fast asleep when I'm reading and want to try this stuff. I have been lax about "give me a break" lately and offf switch work and the relaxation protocol is a seriously good suggestion.

I have a needy greeter, but she has the grovelly Bully thing going on, all wiggles. Chase instinct is what unleashes the juggernaut effect, she rams from behind at knee height, and has sent me flying a few times now, much to the asmusement of onlookers. XD

Thank you for your comments everyone, I really appreciate all the insights!

Edited June 20, 2013 by Wobbly

[Nekhbet]

She'll take the food out of habit from the retrieve shaping, but tends to spit it out in a tug contxt.

When you reward the dog with the tug your hand should not be off it. If you're teaching a retrieve and she's a possessive dog then only use an item that has no reward value (which is why in things like Schutzhund you should never use the dumbbell as a prey item, if you watch Sch fail reels you will see the dogs go into a pattern of victory lap, possession etc because they are getting reward from the item)

Try the two toy method and don't let go on the toy, her out will get faster for you.