Type Of Halti Recommendation

[Mal1]

Skip can you explain the "problems at home" comment?

If I was to use a head halter or a correcting style lead on a working breed I would attach a flat collar as back up.

Have a Euro. style lead that has connectors at both ends.

[skip]

Hi Mal1

Some of the stuff the dog does at home sounds good. My friend did train the dog some at home. Originally the dog was darting inside any chance it got but I showed her a simple way to stop this. All good , dog sitting and waiting to be invited.

Dog is outside but allowed on enclosed patio at night.

Sent her the link to the Triangle of temptation and she says she followed this. Not sure but dog seems OK in this behaviour. She taught him to give a toy on command. He sits etc for treats.

I thought all was good and dog seemed to be keen as it showed some control. Recently she started playing with balls and somehow this caused a problem. Even thou she said he was giving them up and waiting for her to tell him to get the ball?

The dog was always a bit mouthy and I thought this had stopped. But apparently the dog was pulling on her clothing. If she was leaving the dog to stop play it would leap and grab her clothes.

Not good.

Since the behaviourist has been if the dog plays up she has been tying him up to the clothesline for a timeout. The dog seems resigned to this, settles down and goes to tied up .

Will talk to her soon and see how she is going.

I know her problems are a bit more complicated hence the behaviourist but I thought if she could walk the dog, control the dog and get it out seeing the world, the dog would improve. Wouldn't it improve the relationship?

Thanks.

[Simply Grand]

Skip, I think you're doing really well trying to help your friend. And absolutely, confident walking of the dog will help. It doesn't quite sound like they've found the right solution for this particular dog and owner though. Pulling on the clothes and whatever the issue is with balls, it sounds a bit to me like she's not quite on top of it. Which is fair enough, a strong willed dog, especially a guardian breed, is quite likely to push the limits but also needs plenty of stimulation to be happy!

Her current behaviourist may be really helpful, but I'm not sure about tying a frustrated adolescent to the clothesline personally...maybe another opinion would be valuable?

Others have mentioned K9 Pro, I've not had experience with them personally in real life but have heard good things, and have great respect for huski on this forum (Bec) who works there. Could be worth trying to get your friend to contact them :)

Edited July 28, 2014 by Simply Grand

[cavNrott]

Skip please tell your friend to contact K9Pro. From what I read in your post your friend would find it so much easier to implement training at home if she was instructed by a good trainer on how it should be done. It sounds as though she's flying by the seat of her pants and it doesn't have to been that difficult.

Is she not able to walk the dog at all? The longer she goes on with a mish mash of training methods the longer it will take to unlearn mistakes and relearn how it should be done.

This lass needs a good trainer. Not a behaviourist who suggests tying the dog to the clothes line, if indeed the behaviourist did suggest this.

[Amax-1]

A GSD is a working dog that can exhibit certain breed traits and for the best results you MUST seek out a trainer with GSD breed experience with the knowledge to assess the dog's behaviour correctly otherwise they will mess it up. If anyone is suggesting head collars and harnesses as training tools for a GSD, they are inexperienced at training GSD's is a good assumption. If the dog is genetically defence driven or over sharp, or it displays any form of social aggression which can occur in the breed, they can't be trained out on the wrong behaviour assessment from someone who has never encountered or trained a sharp defence driven working dog. It's essential that behavioural issues with GSD's are correctly assessed for the right course of training to be applied :)

This may make me very unpopular, but for equipment I find prong collars much easier to use and more effective than check chains.

A prong collar is the evolution of a check chain, a great tool and a much safer tool than a check chain with far less likelihood to injure a dog on a prong collar even used incorrectly than potential injury from check chain mis-use, yet a check chain can be purchased anywhere and by anyone and be mis-used as anyone sees fit, hardly a sensible concept

Edited July 28, 2014 by Amax-1

[Simply Grand]

I know nothing will change your mind Amax but a prong collar is not the ONLY way to train a GSD. Yes, they have breed specific traits but they are still dogs and the science of behaviour still applies. Plenty of GSDs can be trained with a head collar or a flat collar or whatever tool.

Anyway, skip, as I said, you're doing a great thing, hopefully you can convince your friend to seek another opinion, but also remember, it's her responsibility ultimately, not yours :)

[VizslaMomma]

Since the behaviourist has been if the dog plays up she has been tying him up to the clothesline for a timeout. The dog seems resigned to this, settles down and goes to tied up .

Thanks.

Oh the poor poor dog. Next thing he will be pulling the clothes line down and making havoc. Geeze.

For time-outs the unruly puppy I have goes to his crate. There is NO feeling of resignation. Sorry but to me that is a really negative feeling for a young dog.

I hope the behaviourist never suggested that.

[Mal1]

Hi Skip,

As stated previously, a great idea would be to use a trainer experienced in working breeds.

They would be able to take your friend through how to use play to gain control and bond.

I have found play to be one of the most important factors training my Malinois, allowing me to avoid most conflict but still get my way.

[BC Crazy]

Dear O dear... This poor adolescent pup Tying up any dog IMHO is NO way to disipline anything. If the clothes aren't next Vizsla, there will be a brand some brand new landscaping done right around the clothes line, guaranteed !!!

I feel so sorry for this misunderstood young dog. I hope a professional, breed savvy Behaviourist can intervene ASAP. It is so crucial at this most important time in this dogs development that it occurs NOW to save a lot of heart ache down the track for both the dog & he's owner.

Edited July 28, 2014 by BC Crazy

[persephone]

I am confuddled -

is the tie-up time out a suggestion from the behaviourist?

It sounds odd ......

[persephone]

Hi Mal1

Some of the stuff the dog does at home sounds good. My friend did train the dog some at home. Originally the dog was darting inside any chance it got but I showed her a simple way to stop this. All good , dog sitting and waiting to be invited.

Dog is outside but allowed on enclosed patio at night.

Sent her the link to the Triangle of temptation and she says she followed this. Not sure but dog seems OK in this behaviour. She taught him to give a toy on command. He sits etc for treats.

I thought all was good and dog seemed to be keen as it showed some control. Recently she started playing with balls and somehow this caused a problem. Even thou she said he was giving them up and waiting for her to tell him to get the ball?

The dog was always a bit mouthy and I thought this had stopped. But apparently the dog was pulling on her clothing. If she was leaving the dog to stop play it would leap and grab her clothes.

Not good.

Since the behaviourist has been if the dog plays up she has been tying him up to the clothesline for a timeout. The dog seems resigned to this, settles down and goes to tied up .

Will talk to her soon and see how she is going.

I know her problems are a bit more complicated hence the behaviourist but I thought if she could walk the dog, control the dog and get it out seeing the world, the dog would improve. Wouldn't it improve the relationship?

Thanks.

skip - would your friend be willing to have you video her working with the dog ? Not hours long or anything - just a minute or so walking ..another bit of obedience ..and maybe a minute or so when she goes to leave ..... That way , we can perhaps understand it better ? Second hand info is always tricky :) You're doing a great job of support :D

[Amax-1]

I know nothing will change your mind Amax but a prong collar is not the ONLY way to train a GSD. Yes, they have breed specific traits but they are still dogs and the science of behaviour still applies. Plenty of GSDs can be trained with a head collar or a flat collar or whatever tool.

Anyway, skip, as I said, you're doing a great thing, hopefully you can convince your friend to seek another opinion, but also remember, it's her responsibility ultimately, not yours :)

A training to tool MUST have the ability to switch on and off to use as a training tool otherwise it's a management tool. The dog ultimately needs to feel nothing when the tool is switched off and feel pressure when it's on to either interrupt or extinguish a behaviour. A simple neck collar is bad enough for a dog to become collar wise meaning that the dog behaves with the collar on and with the collar off reverts back to it's default behaviour when a neck collar is used incorrectly......harnesses and head collars are worse again as their fitment is obvious and often aversive to the dog before a leash is attached to it. We need to be mindful that Halti's and the like were designed by people with making money as their priority not presenting a worthy dog training tool.

Science of dog behaviour applies to the behaviour the dog exhibits, that is for example, it's of little training value to treat a behaviour as fearful when in fact the behaviour is a dominant form of social aggression as in a GSD can be a breed specific trait yet the behaviour can appear the same as a dog exhibiting fear reactivity with symptoms of lunging etc. The majority of breeds don't have traits of social aggression at all and many GSD's don't either, but some do dependant on how the genetics came together in the particular dog.

Many good operational and service GSD's have been scoured from people's pets who can't handle them despite behaviourist and training routines that have failed because the behaviourist/trainers had no breed trait knowledge to administer the correct path of rehabilitating specific behaviours.

[Amax-1]

Hi Mal1

Some of the stuff the dog does at home sounds good. My friend did train the dog some at home. Originally the dog was darting inside any chance it got but I showed her a simple way to stop this. All good , dog sitting and waiting to be invited.

Dog is outside but allowed on enclosed patio at night.

Sent her the link to the Triangle of temptation and she says she followed this. Not sure but dog seems OK in this behaviour. She taught him to give a toy on command. He sits etc for treats.

I thought all was good and dog seemed to be keen as it showed some control. Recently she started playing with balls and somehow this caused a problem. Even thou she said he was giving them up and waiting for her to tell him to get the ball?

The dog was always a bit mouthy and I thought this had stopped. But apparently the dog was pulling on her clothing. If she was leaving the dog to stop play it would leap and grab her clothes.

Not good.

Since the behaviourist has been if the dog plays up she has been tying him up to the clothesline for a timeout. The dog seems resigned to this, settles down and goes to tied up .

Will talk to her soon and see how she is going.

I know her problems are a bit more complicated hence the behaviourist but I thought if she could walk the dog, control the dog and get it out seeing the world, the dog would improve. Wouldn't it improve the relationship?

Thanks.

I like the sound of this young dog and none of the behaviours are bad, they are normal for a GSD with good drives to exhibit all of this type of behaviour and is the reason without experience it's not recommended for people to own working dogs as pets unless they are dedicated in their training, but first and foremost, they need advice from a trainer who knows how to train the right behaviours into a young working dog as they can be a handful to manage in adolescence especially if it's a working line GSD and the same applies with working Malinois and even working Border Collies and Kelpies can exhibit some unruly behaviour from high drive traits.

The dog was always a bit mouthy and I thought this had stopped. But apparently the dog was pulling on her clothing. If she was leaving the dog to stop play it would leap and grab her clothes.

Not good.

That's actually excellent as the dog will be very adaptable to training in drive.......funny thing is, these behaviours frowned upon in a pet are what you want to see in a good working dog prospect :laugh:

[cavNrott]

The dog was always a bit mouthy and I thought this had stopped. But apparently the dog was pulling on her clothing. If she was leaving the dog to stop play it would leap and grab her clothes.

Not good

Amax-1.That's actually excellent as the dog will be very adaptable to training in drive.......funny thing is, these behaviours frowned upon in a pet are what you want to see in a good working dog prospect :laugh:

Oh for heavens sake settle down Amax. Mouthing and pulling on clothing when the owner ceases play is normal puppy behaviour for most puppies of any breed or cross thereof. Pulling at clothes is a puppy being a puppy.

If I gave any credence to your opinion about a pup behaving this way I'd say one of my Cavalier King Charles Spaniels showed great potential as a working dog. Ridiculous much?

The way you're going on about GSD's and the training of the breed anyone would think they are so much more complicated and difficult to understand and train that they must be different species. You're doing the breed no favours.

This a pet pup with an owner who is having difficulty training her puppy to behave because she has not been taught how to train a dog. Millions of people have lovely GSD's as pets and they're probably easier to train than many other breeds, once you know how it's done.

Very few GSD's are good working prospects despite ripping at their owners clothes as puppies. My GSD's were well bred, well behaved pet dogs who ripped the hell out of my clothes as pups and my Rottweiler pup was even worse.

[Amax-1]

The way you're going on about GSD's and the training of the breed anyone would think they are so much more complicated and difficult to understand and train that they must be different species. You're doing the breed no favours.

Ok, perhaps investigate some young GSD's for rehoming that people can't handle.....many operational and service dogs have been sourced in this way and still are, they are working dogs and most that exhibit pet behaviour through selective breeding have limited working drive, they merely look like GSD's, but some have retained workability and the characters of these dogs are vastly different and MUST be trained for pet suitability otherwise they can get out of control quickly from adolescence.

Very few GSD's are good working prospects

Correct, and if an inexperienced owner gets a GSD who has working drive then the training of the dog becomes more of a necessity to train suitably to attain the pet behaviours one is seeking.

[skip]

Hi all

Interesting ideas and all worth thinking about.

I don't think the dog is particularly difficult or has a lot of drive.Just untrained.

I haven't been back to reply as the flu strikes again. 2 days off and I attend training tonite as I had to take a class even thou my poor kelpie has broken or sprained her toe and can't have a run. My friend didn't attend so I called her and she was out visiting. Shame as last night of her class tonite.

I will recommend K9 as suggested. My friend is keen I've noticed on talking to trainers who have GSD's.

My friend has no crate so I don't see a problem tying the dog up for a short time out. Thou I think 5 or 10 minutes is enough.My friend did it for 1 hr !!! so that is too long. The dog is pretty accepting without getting upset easily.

I thought my dog was pretty good in the house until we had a trainer come with three dogs. One BC is my girls best mate. So while the BC was lying quietly my kelpie couldn't stop trying to entice her to play. Put my kelpie in crate but then she had a bark. When she barked I removed her to the bathroom. She went to the bathroom a few times that first time until eventually she stayed there. She improved and now she is allowed to stay out. Just too much having a small room full of her friends.

Crate/bathroom ..... similar use this time but I didn't even think about it as a big thing.

I really didn't worry about tying the dog to clothesline until she said she left it for that long. Just a short time until the dog settles which it does nearly straight away. Like the crate/bathroom, if the dog was quiet it was allowed out, barked, back in crate/bathroom. If the dog is tied up and settles quickly I would let it go again in a few minutes but probably go inside. Not start playing again.

Will call her tomorrow but I'll lay odds she has made no contact with the behaviourist.

The video idea is a great one! That would be an interesting exercise. Not sure I can load video that easy, I haven't managed to load any of mine yet. Should learn.

Thanks again for advice.

[cavNrott]

Why does she need a behaviourist? Clearly this is a training issue.

She needs a good trainer, not a behaviourist. The pup is behaving normally. The owner needs to learn how to train her dog.

[skip]

Yes cavNrott, she needs to train her dog. Simple.

I only mention the behaviourist as she saw him last and he told her not to continue with classes until she had his issues addressed.

Our club has a great program. All the instructors compete with their dogs but we have two ladies in particular who are very good. But my friend has to listen and do what they are saying.

Thanks. will update soon I hope.

[VizslaMomma]

Hi all

My friend has no crate so I don't see a problem tying the dog up for a short time out. Thou I think 5 or 10 minutes is enough.My friend did it for 1 hr !!! so that is too long. The dog is pretty accepting without getting upset easily.

I really didn't worry about tying the dog to clothesline until she said she left it for that long. Just a short time until the dog settles which it does nearly straight away.

Thanks again for advice.

In your other post you said the dog seemed 'resigned' to being tied up. Would you or your friend like to be tied up or would you prefer to be comfortable & unfetted?

it's not exactly nice to do that as a means of control, imo.

[cavNrott]

She's wasting her money paying a behaviourist. Especially a behaviourist who advised her to cease training. That is without a doubt the worst advice he could give her. Of course he doesn't want her to take the dog to training, the pup might learn some good behaviours so he loses a paying customer. This behaviourist is delaying any progress she might make.

It's not enough to follow training instruction without understanding the WHY behind it. If she doesn't understand why she's doing something to get a certain behaviour from the dog it won't make sense to her. A competent trainer will explain the WHY so we understand and don't stuff it up when we're at home practising.