Innotek Dog Collars

[Guest afton]

This is just what I do,

When I do off lead work I start with the dog at a short distance and when it learns what you want (voice and hand signals) and is confident in it (through repitition, consistancy and praise) I then increase the distance and time slightly with the long lead and again only when it is confident and obedient do I increase the distance again. This is how I get the basics for off lead work as the dog thinks it is still on the lead. The dog must be confident and obedient in what I want it to do on lead before I even attempt any off lead work. I gradually increase the off lead work as the dog gains confidence and obeys what I want it to do. If it misbeaves off lead I put it straight back on the lead as it was not ready for this step and needs more training because if the dog disobeys you off lead it is not under control and learns to disobey you. There is no use giving a command if it can not be reinforced, if you say sit, sit, sit to the dog to get it to sit before it sits you are teaching it to do it in it's own time as the dog perceives you didn't mean it the first time so why do it.

Kind Regards,

Afton

[Steve K9Pro]

I too use to rent but as the environment wasn't suitable for the dogs I placed them in borading kennels until my circumstances changed by me finding suitable residence.

K9: all things being equal.... I would prefer to wear an e collar tahn to be separated from my pack...

I would put them in their pens and let them out when I was there.

K9: all things being equal, I would prefer to run on an acre than being locked in a pen...

You know, many people pen their dogs as punishment, you do it to keep them safe.... I wonder can you see where Im going with this.,.?

I would also do individual long lead training

K9: can you explain your long line method for me? I wonder if it includes the dog running into the end of the long line, & if it doesnt, how you prevent that?

use a long lead eg. venetian cord

K9: If I may make a suggestion? If your trying to sever your fingers, use piano wire, it works slightly better than venetian cord...

[Steve K9Pro]

There is no use giving a command if it can not be reinforced, if you say sit, sit, sit to the dog to get it to sit before it sits you are teaching it to do it in it's own time as the dog perceives you didn't mean it the first time so why do it.

K9: whilst I agree in part with you, maybe you can explain how you enforce it?

[Axel]

afton;

I DONT rent, dont even know where u got that from. I did say i have resorted to putting my dog in his run when i am not there to supervise him and the only reason i feel comfortable doing this is because he swims 40 minutes a day and goes on a 5km walk every night, therefore i dont feel guilty about him not getting exercise.

not to mention that my dog goes everywhere with me, yes even to the pub to sit in the beer garden, yes even to the cafe when i go for coffee with friends (we sit on the sidewalk tables), to the nursing home when i visit my great grandma, to friends and relatives houses, to horse shows, the only places he doesnt come to are restaurants and shopping centres. so he is out and about quite a bit.

If i didnt have the time to be doing these activities with him, i wouldnt be locking him in the run, i would be investing in a containment system.

So let me get this straight;

your dog is an escape artist; you put it in boarding kennels??

you move house???

if after you move house they are still escaping, you lock them away and only get them out when supervised, so if you worked a 9 til 5 job and had to leave for work at 7am, and didnt get home till say, 6:30pm (traffic) then cooked dinner, had a shower, housework, etc.. where would you be finding the time to fit supervising the dogs in??

then in all that other spare time, you will put the dogs on long leads, cos that will stop them from chasing the ducks next door, or the sheep down the road, cos when that prey drive kicks in when your sitting on the balcony watching your dogs in the backyard, they are gonna remember you on the end of the long lead last week teling them 'no' everytime they hit the end of the lead... and thats gonna knock them out of drive, and stop them from getting out and chasing the ducks..

uh huh.. ok i understand where you are coming from now...

thats a great solution and a great answer as to why e-collars are so bad

Edited May 3, 2005 by Axel

[Guest afton]

During the period they were at a boarding kennels, I went to see them often, they were both together and were very well cared for. I accepted at this time they couldn't live with me as I didn't have the appropriate facilities.

My long lead training in an extension of my short lead work. eg when the dog is in a sit position with a loose lead, give the stay command with hand signal, step off with the right foot allowing the venetian cord attached to a handle to unwind for the distance I was doing. I would then hold the loose lead in my hands about waist height. I would then move back beside my dog and praise it if it behaved itself. If it attempted to move I would say no and then gently place the dog back in the sit position and try again. I would finish on a good note and train only about 5 minutes a day. I would make it fun and enjoyable for the dog. If it was a come command and the dog didn't respond I would apply gentle pressure to the lead and encourage the dog to come to me and show it what I wanted all the time praising it. Then I would repeat this so the dog got the idea and praise every time the dog did it right.

To enforce a command eg. sit, if the dog did not sit on the command after the count of 3, instead of saying it again I would place the dog in the sit position and then praise it and then repeat the exercise so it learnt what I wanted (praising it when it did).

This is the way I was taught at our obedience training classes when I was younger.

Kind Regards,

Afton

[Guest afton]

Axel,

In my case we work different shifts so the dogs when and if confined are not there very long (a couple of hours at max and also have each other for company). I also live on twenty acres so when they are loose have plenty of space to run and play.

If you are saying your dogs would be locked up all that time as you don't have the time for them....well that's another issue isn't it .

I'm over this thread as we just keep going around in circles and will not agree.

Kind Regards,

Afton

[Steve K9Pro]

A:

During the period they were at a boarding kennels, I went to see them often, they were both together and were very well cared for. I accepted at this time they couldn't live with me as I didn't have the appropriate facilities.

K9: I wonder if the dogs accepted it?

I wonder if they thought that you saw them ofetn enough?

I wonder if they thought they were well cared for?

All valid points to make when talking about animal welfare.

May I also ask what sort of dog that you have?

[MonElite]

Afton as much as agree with your training methods they are appropriate enough when there are no distractions.

My dog will do all of the excercises he knows with no problems when the distractions are small. But put lets say a bitch in season near him, or a full of himself male - that is a different story.

These are big distractions for my dog, for some is the ducks, cats or whatever.

My dog recalling over a jump with no distractions

http://lukrowi.pl/galeria/index.php?p=2&id...re=6174#section

And as I said even with distractions my dog will do everything extremly well with long line attached. Unclip the line add distractions and off he goes...

BTW I dont own an electronic collar, however I can't wait patiently enought until I get one (soon)

We will have to agree to disagree, I doubt that you have ever felt the electronic collar on your skin thats why you have this opinion.

I cause far more pain to my dog using a check chain and majority of people have no problems with using one.

[KitKat]

Glad to have you back K9Force

[MonElite]

Glad to have you back K9Force ;)

Ditto!!!!

[BC4ME]

Ditto from me and Huffy too.

We really enjoyed your seminar in Brissy don't leave it too long before you venture up this way again.

Edited May 4, 2005 by BC4ME

[JayGee]

Have just read the entire 9 pages of this thread, with much interest. KitKat made a decision to keep her dog safe. To those who feel that this is a cruel and barbaric form of control, have you ever had a dog that thinks it's a gazelle?? What is it about Rotti's that make them leap over huge heights? Oh, that's right, the power to weight ratio makes it possible!!!

I just wish that I had taken the same course as KitKat, because my Rotti who could clear fences in a single bound, would still be with me. It's not a safe world out there for a dog on the run, particularly a black dog at night.

You may decide that there are other methods of training, entertainment, raising the height of the fence etc, but there comes that one day, when they haven't been over the fence in such a long time, and it's all over. Do whatever you have to do to keep your dogs safe.

Edited May 5, 2005 by JayGee

[grotty_rotty]

JayGee, I am so sorry for your loss, thank you for your touching addition to this very personal and fiery thread.

I too own the Gazelle type of Rotti and have spent a night in tears when he did escape before innotek arrived in our life. Thoughts of what could happen to him flew through my mind but luckily he and his GSD friend were found safe and sound.

We do what we need to do, as you said.

[JayGee]

Thanks grotty_rotty.

Sometimes we are a little too quick to judge on these forums as to why people do what they do........ I think that most people here have their dog's best interests at heart. We should just appreciate and accept differing opinions. And sometimes, it doesn't hurt to walk in someone else's shoes.

[ninaandted]

K9: If I may make a suggestion? If your trying to sever your fingers, use piano wire, it works slightly better than venetian cord...

ahhh K9, you just made my afternoon. I have the scar on my hand to prove your theory. venetian cord-long lead recall training very bad with lightening fast jack russell!! must remember the piano wire next time. i'm sure it actually hurts less!

i know... off topic...

[Lou Castle]

I've been in dozens of these conversations and they almost always go the same way.

1. People with next to no experience with the tool hate them.

2. Those people say that the tool is cruel.

3. They base their opinions on emotions rather than logic and reason.

4. They often approach hysteria in their quest to "badmouth" the tool.

5. They won't listen to facts.

6. They have some idea about how the tool is used, and it's usually one they've heard, rather than seen.

7. They may have seen an Ecollar used but it was an older model, not the modern tools available today.

8. They use the phrase "zapped into submission."

9. They talk about pain.

10. They talk of their experience with dog training which is usually very limited, often only to a couple of their own pets.

11. They continue in their beliefs no matter what information is presented to them.

Now on the upside. People with open minds learn something about the tool. Many new users are converted or at least inquire as to their proper use.

[Amstaff.Ws]

Phew, took a while to read all of the posts.

My 2.2 cents worth (incl.GST)

So much negative focus!

The so called zapping, shocking, electifying, cowering into submission etc.

I have watched the Innotek Training DVD for these products, and I can tell you, extreme care is taken to teach the dog the right way.

This includes LAVISH PRAISE for when the dog does the right thing.

The dog is NEVER forced into the fence. If you are forcing the dog, you are going against the instruction of the manufacturer.

The fence is used with the combination of training flags. The dog CAN SEE where the fence is! It's not invisible, unless you choose to remove the flags!

If you DO remove the flags before the dog has been trained, then AGAIN, you are going against the manufacturer's recommendations!

Many of these products also have tones. So before the zap is given, a warning tone is given. The dog is given a chance, and backs off.

As far as cowering into submission is concerned, and negative reinforcement....jees, you think you are a doing your dog good, when you PURELY use positive reinforcement. hahahaha! You are a bunch of jokers.

I bet that any one of you who claim to only use positive reinforcement, have at some point used negative reinforcement. Please don't tell me you've never given a strong "no!" to your dog. Oooooh, come on, even a little tug on the lead while no one of your "hyper sensitive" buddies are around?

I think you are kidding yourself for trying to be "good to the extreme".

What's your dog's history? Do yourself a favour, get yourself a DVD on Wolf behaviour (yes, they are around), and have a look.

Submissive behaviour is naturally occuring amongst members of a pack.

Yes, they even bite each other to get their message across. Cowering is part of a wolves and indeed a dog's body language.

So don't act surprised when you see a dog cowering after having been given (depending on the temperament of individual dogs) EVEN A VERBAL command.

Each dog is different, but the body language which they portray is universal.

The key with these products is to TEACH your dog, and not throw your dog into the deep end.

[SALTWOOD]

Totally agree Amstaff.WS!!

I am wondering if the "positive training methods" is not being a tad "overdone"???

I am almost afraid to say NO these days!!

Are we going the same way as kids that were raised over the last 10-20 years where it was frowned upon to actually discipline them so they would know right from wrong??

People are just now realising that children actually benefit from knowing their boundaries.

I am all for rewarding good behaviour but does it really have to mean we never correct??

[ninaandted]

I think you have raised some interesting points Amstaff.ws and Saltwood. there are just some things that dogs shouldn't do and a well understood "no" is really useful - if not lifesaving.

whilst I agree about rewarding the behaviour you do want, I do think some dogs need boundaries - for their own good. if they don't understand what a reprimand is at all then you have nothing to use when you come up against a situation that you haven't yet trained for.

someone once suggested on this forum (not in this thread) that you shouldn't use "no" as it can be overused, but i would tend to disagree. if you are constantly saying "no" to your dog about a certain behaviour then of course this is an opportunity to give it a "doing" command. but for new or one-off situations it is also very clear.

[Stormy]

Wow, after finally making it to the (so far) end of this thread, I feel compelled to add my opinion (sorry folks!).

Electronic collars...? Bring em on..!

I've had a Rhodesian Ridge X and an Irish wolf X that would have escaped from Alcatraz. My Ridge would either go through or under any fencing and my 50 kg Irish would sail over a 7 foot fence in the blink of an eye. More often than not I would have to come home from work to go looking for my boys (so I could take them for their hour run! ), wondering just what they had got up to? how long they had been out? would I find them? And yes, my yard was securely fenced. Ridge just ate the fence (did I mention that it was new and not some half rotted falling down one...?)) and my Irish was greatful that I added the lattice on top of the 7 foot fence as she was able to get a better foot hold). And this was in my own house! I tried leaving them in the house (just love that minimilist look...), though my Ridge did go through the lounge room window when my neighbours dog came into our yard......but that's another story...(very messy ;) ).

As for renting. Ha!. The only places that would let me rent with dogs were absolute dumps. Choosing a better rental, you surely jest...?!

If only I'd had a portable containment fence...what a god send that would have been. I love my dogs dearly (My Ridge died at the ripe old age of 16 this Jan and my 15 year old Irish is still with me (though can no longer jump over an ant, let alone a fence)). I tried every thing in the book. If i chained / caged my dogs up they would bark (had a lovely neighbour shoot my Ridge with and air rifle once). Tried training but had to leave as my Ridge (once again - can you tell he was my real problem child...?!) tried to eat his class mates.

I would run with them for at least an hour down the fire trial every night, they had each other for company and when I was home they considered it their right to sit in my lap, together, for cuddles. I would and did do anything for my boys. They even had their own double bed with pillows and blankets (lest they steal mine!). But nothing I tried kept them from wandering (and yes they were both desexed). Yes I could have kept them chained / caged but to me that was cruel (especially when you have a neighbour armed with a gun and the dogs tied up like sitting ducks).

I have friends who use these collars, I've spoken to vets and to trainers and YES I would use one (and may still do with future dogs). I was very lucky that nothing happened to my boys, or BY my boys when they were out, damn lucky. I wouldn't play it to chance again. The peace of mind of knowing that they would have been home to meet me everytime, would have been priceless.

Bar amputating their legs (or giving them concrete booties) .... it could have saved A LOT of problems, hairy moments, worry, frustration, anger, time, not to mention money....

Electronic collars cruel...? No way! I've already warned my children that I'm waiting for them to bring out a childrens model...except for them I would be after the remote one, just think no more yelling in the car, no more having to call them 10 times, no more backchat, etc ... one zap and that's that!