Willem Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 (edited) ...Well you can take the girl out of the honky tonk, but you can't take the honky tonk out of the girl... I think the behavior is quite normal and natural - it would take a lot of training and some time to teach the dog to differentiate between all the creatures, rats, mice, birds, lizards, snakes ... how should she know what she is allowed and even encouraged to chase and what is a no no?...or that a cat is deaf?... As there are a lot of instincts involved it is not done with just saying no on a few occasions. As a start I would train with her the 'leave it' command and work on the recall - however, this would help other creatures only when you are around. To keep other creatures safe also when you are not around you would have to gather all the different animals and start serious training. Our dog is chasing cockroaches, mice, rats and myna birds (the common one, they are a plague here) when she is in the garden ... good on her ...last week she got a pigeon - bad luck for the pigeon, I won't bother starting to teach her that myna birds are 'bad birds' and the pigeons or our budgies are 'good birds'. When I walk her and see her distracted by a bird (or something else she is keen to chase) I use the scenario to train her focus and her response. Edited October 27, 2015 by Willem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosmum Posted October 26, 2015 Author Share Posted October 26, 2015 (edited) The fight or flight responses of other animals are much more stimulating than ordinary interaction. And once a dog has followed through for a "win" very rewarding. My interpretation is that once the dog has gone over its arousal threshold, Its near impossible to get their attention for them to listen to you. So you teach them that satisfaction comes best THRU listening, and yourself how to better get their attention and hold it by working WITH the drives and stimulation they find so rewarding. But there are all sorts of variables to affect how successful that will be. Edited October 26, 2015 by moosmum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mita Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 (edited) Some time back, a DOLer posted that prey drive in dogs wasn't always necessarily connected with what'd be regarded as 'aggressive' behaviour. That caught my interest & I went searching & found a US ASPCA article that backed that up. It called it predatory behaviour & said it could cover a full sequence (eye, stalk, chase, grab-bite, kill-bite, dissect & consume) or just a part (like, eye,stalk, chase, grab-bite or stop at chase). They linked patterns with the purposes for why various dogs had been bred (& obviously there'd be individual differences within the groups). I've over-simplified what they said, so the whole article is worth a read. Also went on to discuss management: https://www.aspca.org/pet-care/virtual-pet-behaviorist/dog-behavior/predatory-behavior-dogs Edited October 26, 2015 by mita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 (edited) So what's the deal with a dog like this who under normal, calm conditions with a non-reactive animal is perfectly fine? They have a higher threshold before they trigger into drive. For some dogs, the sight of prey is enough. For others, movement or sound will trigger drive. My guess is your dog probably shows signs of predatory behaviour (staring, stalking) around a non-reactive behaviour but the predatory response is triggered by movement and sound. With sighthounds, it is often movement. My Whippet boys are at a higher level of arousal around cats but if they cat runs, its on. For Howie, the sight of a chicken is enough... he is a homicidal maniac around poultry. Edited October 26, 2015 by Haredown Whippets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Gifts Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Thanks for the feedback everyone. This girl has passed on now but it is good for me to understand in case I ever have another dog like her. It's distressing when you think you have a dog that is fine around cats but then discover it is only fine around a certain cats under certain conditions. Big difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Thanks for the feedback everyone. This girl has passed on now but it is good for me to understand in case I ever have another dog like her. It's distressing when you think you have a dog that is fine around cats but then discover it is only fine around a certain cats under certain conditions. Big difference. And one that is oft overlooked and needs constant reinforcement for anyone involved in rehoming sighthounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maddy Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Sorry to hijack because I was going to ask a similar thing. Is true prey drive something you can control/train? Yes, definitely. It is something that is genetically very strong in some dogs more than others. Prey drive is something that can make the dog either difficult to handle or extremely well trained depending on how you develop it. I haven't met dogs with a higher prey drive than our working line Mals, but they will recall off live prey mid chase. There is no situation or distraction I have found where I can't make them reliable. I am sure some posters will jump and say 'but they are bred to be more bidable' but people who handle high drive working dogs or have experience with them, will know this isn't true - they can very easily become extremely out of control and difficult to handle due to temperament traits like their prey drive. How you train a dog with an extremely high prey drive can differ depending on your level of skill and the dogs history of reinforcement (how has it learnt to reward its prey drive etc). But it is certainly possible. People who try to stifle prey drive or stop the dog going into drive without also giving it a positive outlet for drive will never see a high level of reliability compared to trainers who can harness drive and use it. See, to me, that suggests their drive isn't that high compared to something like a greyhound. I've seen greyhounds with completely shattered hocks continue to chase the lure, screaming in pain as they go. They would run themselves to death in pursuit of something and to be blunt about it, liver treats, tug toys or praise could never be more rewarding than the chase. It doesn't seem to matter if chase has ever been rewarded further, the chasing is enough. And when the behaviour is its own reward.. Plenty of people claim it can be done but curiously, I've never seen a greyhound successfully trained not to chase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosmum Posted October 27, 2015 Author Share Posted October 27, 2015 I think its very different within breeds, and can be individualy too, In expression, intenstity and how its managed or trained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 . And when the behaviour is its own reward.. Plenty of people claim it can be done but curiously, I've never seen a greyhound successfully trained not to chase. I recall when Suzanne Clothier came to Australia some years ago, she mentioned studies that indicated that a dog chasing in full prey drive would be unable to hear a recall. Apparently when in full chase mode, parts of the brain become less active as sight and movement dominate brain function. So the question then becomes, if the dog is responding to a recall, IS it in full prey drive? I can recall my Whippets off stationary Kangaroos and when the lure has stopped but when moving? I doubt it. I think I could drop dead at the start of a lure course and Dodger would still run and then come back and see what the problem was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 (edited) Sorry to hijack because I was going to ask a similar thing. Is true prey drive something you can control/train? Yes, definitely. It is something that is genetically very strong in some dogs more than others. Prey drive is something that can make the dog either difficult to handle or extremely well trained depending on how you develop it. I haven't met dogs with a higher prey drive than our working line Mals, but they will recall off live prey mid chase. There is no situation or distraction I have found where I can't make them reliable. I am sure some posters will jump and say 'but they are bred to be more bidable' but people who handle high drive working dogs or have experience with them, will know this isn't true - they can very easily become extremely out of control and difficult to handle due to temperament traits like their prey drive. How you train a dog with an extremely high prey drive can differ depending on your level of skill and the dogs history of reinforcement (how has it learnt to reward its prey drive etc). But it is certainly possible. People who try to stifle prey drive or stop the dog going into drive without also giving it a positive outlet for drive will never see a high level of reliability compared to trainers who can harness drive and use it. See, to me, that suggests their drive isn't that high compared to something like a greyhound. I've seen greyhounds with completely shattered hocks continue to chase the lure, screaming in pain as they go. They would run themselves to death in pursuit of something and to be blunt about it, liver treats, tug toys or praise could never be more rewarding than the chase. It doesn't seem to matter if chase has ever been rewarded further, the chasing is enough. And when the behaviour is its own reward.. Plenty of people claim it can be done but curiously, I've never seen a greyhound successfully trained not to chase. My dogs would do that too (and I have seen the results of high drive working dogs who don't have appropriate training and management many times) had they not been raised and trained to believe nothing gives them a better chance at achieving drive satisfaction than my commands. Control with the kind of dogs I have is a necessity, not an option. Edited October 27, 2015 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 My dogs would do that too (and I have seen the results of high drive working dogs who don't have appropriate training and management many times) had they not been raised and trained to believe nothing gives them a better chance at achieving drive satisfaction than my commands. Control with the kind of dogs I have is a necessity, not an option. A dog that can reach 50kph within a couple of strides also brings challenges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 My dogs would do that too (and I have seen the results of high drive working dogs who don't have appropriate training and management many times) had they not been raised and trained to believe nothing gives them a better chance at achieving drive satisfaction than my commands. Control with the kind of dogs I have is a necessity, not an option. A dog that can reach 50kph within a couple of strides also brings challenges. I don't question that it does, but being able to have control of a high drive dog doesn't mean the dog lacks drive. I've seen pet owners with moderately driven dogs who can't control them around prey, lack of control doesn't equal more drive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkySoaringMagpie Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 I think there is an apples and oranges thing going on here. Some breeds are bred to work independently - some to work closely with humans. Both might have high drive but how that is expressed and managed will vary by breed and by temperament within a breed. And I say that as someone who can call one of my Salukis off a running hare, but not another. As a lure courser I know I don't want them to be too dependant on me for instruction either way, for obvious reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 I keep it simple with my Spaniels - if they are off leash they are working in some way - engaged with constant recalls, hand touches and tricks if not training or competing or hunting. They are not a dog that you can just relax with as they are gone before you can even get the whistle in your mouth to call them back :laugh: I freaking love 'em but they're not everyone's cup of tea... http://totallygundogs.com/the-trouble-with-springers-part-one/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 (edited) My dogs would do that too (and I have seen the results of high drive working dogs who don't have appropriate training and management many times) had they not been raised and trained to believe nothing gives them a better chance at achieving drive satisfaction than my commands. Control with the kind of dogs I have is a necessity, not an option. A dog that can reach 50kph within a couple of strides also brings challenges. I don't question that it does, but being able to have control of a high drive dog doesn't mean the dog lacks drive. I've seen pet owners with moderately driven dogs who can't control them around prey, lack of control doesn't equal more drive. I am only talking about prey drive. And about breeds that are not generally regarded as particularly "trainable" (read, responsive to rewards or punishment from handlers) So does human focus/biddability lower prey drive?. When you think about it, sighthounds are the oldest breeds We were coursing dogs long before we modified prey drive to herd. So if we've never bred for that human focus/biddability in a sighthound, the question has to be why? Does the fact that they are coursing so damn hard mean that they really can't hear us? Do they need to be able to focus on their 'job" and do it without human interference ( I think that's a yes). Did the more biddable dogs course less hard? It would be interesting to know. Certainly a degree of independence and self confidence is required to course without encouragement or assistance from a hander. I do know that a breed typical Greyhound, Saluki or Whippet is never going to turn itself inside out for a handler the way a Mal will. But Mals don't course like Sighthounds do either. They were bred to perform different functions. Edited October 27, 2015 by Haredown Whippets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 (edited) While I agree prey drive can look different in different breeds, I wouldnt class Mals as typically bidabble dogs. I have met A LOT of typical "biddable" breeds that couldn't give a crap about their handlers. Pack drive isn't the strongest instinct in a dog like a Mal. Prey drive generally far exceeds anything else. ETA: when it comes to basic life skill like building a reliable recall (including off live prey) I've never met any dog that couldn't be trained to a reliable level. Including hounds Edited October 27, 2015 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 (edited) While I agree prey drive can look different in different breeds, I wouldnt class Mals as typically bidabble dogs. I have met A LOT of typical "biddable" breeds that couldn't give a crap about their handlers. Pack drive isn't the strongest instinct in a dog like a Mal. Prey drive generally far exceeds anything else. Try training a sighthound. Really. They aren't strong willed or even blowing you off, they just don't see the point about what you, with your clicker and tug toy want them to do. Tug toys don't run. Go all "enthusiastic voice"? They look at you like you're demented unless they feel like it. They'd rather sun bake. Want to jerk them around and play hard ball? They shut down As a trainer observed when I was agility training Howie - "he hoisted the 'bored' flag, there goes any further training for him". Edited October 27, 2015 by Haredown Whippets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 (edited) While I agree prey drive can look different in different breeds, I wouldnt class Mals as typically bidabble dogs. I have met A LOT of typical "biddable" breeds that couldn't give a crap about their handlers. Pack drive isn't the strongest instinct in a dog like a Mal. Prey drive generally far exceeds anything else. Try training a sighthound. Really. They aren't strong willed or even blowing you off, they just don't see the point about what you, with your clicker and tug toy want them to do. They'd rather sun bake. Want to jerk them around and play hard ball? They shut down As a trainer observed when I was agility training Howie - "he hoisted the 'bored' flag, there goes any further training for him". I don't have a sight hound myself, but I do have a scent hound. I know what it's like to handle a dog with low to no pack drive who can self reward (scenting) faster than you can pull a treat out and even if you did... She will spit it out if she's mid scent. You can't train every dog the same way. You have to look at the dog in front of you and adjust your training accordingly. ETA: I don't believe it is pack drive that makes dogs like Mals a popular choice for training and working roles. It's their insanely high drive that makes them easy to motivate - which can't be confused with easy to train IME. Edited October 27, 2015 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canisbellum Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Due to incidents at the dog parks I have been walking the dogs in the bush and I have discovered that Jonah has huge prey drive and will kill things if he can catch them which is very seldom. But he doesn't have a off switch and all it takes is the scent of something to set him off. He has also learnt to watch Jesse who is very observant and looks for things while he is sniffing around and if he sees her paying a lot of attention or running after something he is off after her. Jesse will come back and settle down almost immediately where Jonah takes some time to recall and then has to be put on a leash for as long as it takes for him to settle down. One example We came across fresh horse tracks on a beach and he was gone before I realized the hole he was sniffing at was a hoof print. Totally ignored me and literally vanished down the beach. He did come back onto the beach but was still hunting but was calm enough to come to me so I could get him on a leash and then spent the next 15 or 20 minutes crying and pulling and trying to sniff the tracks we were passing on our way back. The only way I have been able to stop a few other incidents is with the use of a Einstein E collar , he is improving but I now watch him and Jesse very carefully as I can control him by controlling her most of the time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 (edited) I don't have a sight hound myself, but I do have a scent hound. I know what it's like to handle a dog with low to no pack drive who can self reward (scenting) faster than you can pull a treat out and even if you did... She will spit it out if she's mid scent. You can't train every dog the same way. You have to look at the dog in front of you and adjust your training accordingly. ETA: I don't believe it is pack drive that makes dogs like Mals a popular choice for training and working roles. It's their insanely high drive that makes them easy to motivate - which can't be confused with easy to train IME. But aren't you are starting with a breed that has been selectively bred to look to and work with people, not by itself for the most part out of sight of humans? They may not be biddable but few would argue that they are not highly trainable. Edited October 27, 2015 by Haredown Whippets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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