Salukifan Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 (edited) surprise, surprise, 2 hours ago our 10 month old, submissive, playful 'little' puppy showed a total different behavior: this morning we found 2 dogs from the neighborhood in our garden, their owner might have just let them out (I won't comment on this - I blame myself that I didn't check the door and gate yesterday to make sure they were properly closed and that the storm we had this night couldn't open them, so maybe exactly the same happend to the other dog owner). I went to the garden to find out what happend and to get them out of our garden, our BC - she was in the house - came with me. When she saw the other dogs, her hair stood up and she started chasing the other dogs, not playful, but very aggressively - wow, was this our little puppy?... I had to get her back into the house to get control of the situation. Now I ask myself was this just territorial or was it her herding instinct as the other dogs threatened 'her' guinea pigs? ...we have 2 compounds for the guinea pigs (1 for the male, 1 for the females) in our garden and she takes 'herding' them very serious: she spends a lot of time just watching them, circles around the compounds, and every time we feed them she becomes excited and has to watch closely what we doing. Herding instinct makes a dog herd, not guard. You saw territorial behaviour I'd say. Herding instinct is modified prey drive - I'd not be too sure your dogs' behaviour towards guinea pigs isn't predatory. I've been meaning to respond to this thread to say I used to see a lot of over excited dogs in class that had been allowed to run madly around with others beforehand. They were, quite frankly, over aroused and their attention spans suffered accordingly. When you consider the impact of adrenalin on the brain that's unsurprising. Save the play for AFTER class. Its a good reward to let dogs let their hair down afterwards and blow off steam. Border Collies are highly trainable. Arguably THE most trainable breed and most, when working, have no interest in other dogs. I'd say you need to work at her focus, reward it when you get it and show her that 'working' for you is way more exciting than blowing off steam. She's no longer a pup - she can work if you motivate her too. Edited October 6, 2015 by Haredown Whippets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted October 6, 2015 Author Share Posted October 6, 2015 Herding instinct makes a dog herd, not guard. You saw territorial behaviour I'd say. Herding instinct is modified prey drive - I'd not be too sure your dogs' behaviour towards guinea pigs isn't predatory. I've been meaning to respond to this thread to say I used to see a lot of over excited dogs in class that had been allowed to run madly around with others beforehand. They were, quite frankly, over aroused and their attention spans suffered accordingly. When you consider the impact of adrenalin on the brain that's unsurprising. Save the play for AFTER class. Its a good reward to let dogs let their hair down afterwards and blow off steam. Border Collies are highly trainable. Arguably THE most trainable breed and most, when working, have no interest in other dogs. I'd say you need to work at her focus, reward it when you get it and show her that 'working' for you is way more exciting than blowing off steam. She's no longer a pup - she can work if you motivate her too. I'm not so sure whether it is predatory or not either - that's why the female guinea pigs not allowed anymore to roam the garden freely (before we had the dog we just let them run around). No matter whether it is predatory or herding, at least it keeps her entertained, so while the kids are not interested in the guinea pigs anymore we keep them for the dog :) . wrt trainable: she learns indeed pretty easily - she is now more or less 'point and shoot' during the agility training (as long as she isn't distracted): I point to an obstacle and she just does it, at home she even weaves through the poles I put up in the garden nearly independently - this evening club agility training is on, let's see how she goes. @ Mrs Rusty Bucket: the threshold is getting better and better, only the last 5-10 meters are still critical. For any longer distance most of the time she follows the commands, e.g. drop and stay...so there is progress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Rusty Bucket Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 @ Mrs Rusty Bucket: the threshold is getting better and better, only the last 5-10 meters are still critical. For any longer distance most of the time she follows the commands, e.g. drop and stay...so there is progress. This is good - it probably means you can get good focus on the opposite side of the road? Don't rush it... It does seem to me that you now know what you want to see her doing better and you're training for that so she is getting to understand what you want her to be doing when there's a distraction around. Watch out for situations of "overwhelm", ie where something that seems ordinary in terms of distraction - that something else adds to it for some reason - and she loses it again. Sometimes you get setbacks - just start again - your dog should progress faster the second time around. Add some controlled distractions if you can, and practice in some new environments - where you can get distance if you need to. The more different places with the more different setups you can train - the more solid the understanding will be. As for chasing the other dogs out of the yard. My dog wants to chase all other dogs off her street - she thinks she owns it. Even dogs she knows are her friends - tho she does change her tune if I point that out to her - that it's a dog and person she knows. I don't have guinea pigs. I'm pretty sure my dog would try to protect me or her dog friends if she thought we were threatened. She does try to herd off strange dogs that upset her friends and isn't that nice about it, so I try to prevent that by putting her on lead if a likely trigger dog is approaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted October 9, 2015 Author Share Posted October 9, 2015 (edited) the agility training on Wednesday was 'exhausting' (for me :D , not for the dog, there are just too many dogs around which makes it pretty hard for me to keep focus on her all the time :laugh: )...but during the normal walks she starts behaving much better....sometimes she even drops now without command when she sees another dog in the distance. wrt the clicker training: conversely to the agility training this is so easy to do and stress free. I train her in front of the house, where bikes and car passes and people walk by. She doesn't run of, just looks at them ...click and focus is back on me and she gets the treat (changed also the treats to make it harder for here to resist). However, if someone passes with a dog it is still a challenge, but also here the distance that triggers her gets smaller and smaller. When you think about it: this is really a very tricky training where you can influence the dogs behaviour and response to a trigger independently from the strength of the trigger.... a little bit like a brain wash without torture :D ... Edited October 9, 2015 by Willem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Rusty Bucket Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 there are just too many dogs around which makes it pretty hard for me to keep focus on her all the time :laugh: Any chance you could get there early and practice at a bit of a distance. Most of our agility training is in parks - and we can get quite a bit of distance from the action if we need to. You might need to practice that before you will be able to let her off lead in that kind of environment. They do get used to it eventually tho. Most of them. As long as it's not distracted-scared in which case - really work the distance and get her comfortable first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted October 9, 2015 Author Share Posted October 9, 2015 (edited) I'm always a little bit earlier and walk her over the area, do the drop...stay game etc. while other dogs are there, but outside her trigger zone. During these walks she behaves pretty good. However, during the agility training the obstacles are so close and it is unavoidable that other dogs enter her trigger zone, plus she gets pumped full with adrenalin and so on...ah well, it is not so bad...she is just 10 month old.... actually, when doing the recall training before and after the sessions she is doing really good. Edited October 9, 2015 by Willem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simply Grand Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 It sounds like you and she are doing really well :) She's come a long way quickly. Keep doing what you're doing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Rusty Bucket Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 My dog not only yelled at me at last night's training, when she stuffed up the weavers or nicked off to the seesaw looking for a treat - she went and yelled at the instructor as well... WHERE'S ME TREAT - GIMME THE TREAT - I GO ON THE SEE SAW I GET TREAT - WTF??? yes dog, you only get treat when I ask you to go on the see saw, not when I ask you to turn away from it... but she used to be scared of the see saw so that's an improvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Personally, I prefer my dogs to have no value for other dogs. I want to be the thing they want to play and interact with. They need to learn that other dogs exist in their world but I want them to just ignore that existance. The best thing i have read & i so wish puppy schools would teach this at classes inside of the free for all entitlement that every dog should be played with which then seems to pass onto the owners that if they see a dog there dog should interact . Good lord, I don't! My reactive dog classes are full of dogs that don't have terrific social skills. Free-for-all puppy classes make me shudder, and are at least partially responsible for filling up my reactive dog classes, but the answer is not to go the other way and try to prevent dogs from finding out that they like their own species. Dogs are social animals, people. That means many of them inherently want to interact with their own kind, and it takes a lot of practice and experience for them to develop their social skills fully. Heaven forbid that they should have some kind of interest in social objects right when you are trying to train them or something. I promise you, it's not that hard to have a dog that is very well socialised and likes interacting with other dogs, but will still want to play and interact with you when you tell them it's on. You just have to train it. You train them that you could say it's on at any moment, and when you do, they will damn well want to be in on it no matter what they were doing a second ago. You train them that it pays to hold on just that little bit longer until you release them to go play. And you accept that they are social animals and asking them to ignore a dog comes with a cost, so you have to build that skill and be mindful of what you are asking of them and when. I can call my dogs at the off leash beach, on fire trails, in parks, on the street, and have them pop into a heel all eyes on me while a dog passes within a foot of them. I am a hobby trainer at best, and I have one extremely social dog and one busy body that feels he needs to check out everything, but I still get their 100% focus, and that wasn't even what I was aiming to get when I did this training years ago. I just wanted to be able to interrupt them and call them back if I needed to for their own safety. It can certainly be done, and it's very worthwhile to let them develop their social skills as well, particularly if you live somewhere they will encounter strange dogs regularly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted October 13, 2015 Author Share Posted October 13, 2015 ...an update: we did a longer beach walk on Sunday together with 2 other families and their dogs (the other 2 dogs are just a few month older than our dog), most of the time off leash. They ran and played for nearly 2 hours and had a ball. They must have covered 10 times the distance we walked by chasing each other across the beach. She behaved really good (no aggression at all, gentle to the other kids), and I could recognize that she was much more careful (more matured, more "normal") when off leash and approaching other dogs we met along the way. I tried a few recalls ...actually pretty good, not perfect, but pretty good. This evening I will do some 'trigger zone training' when walking her, let's see how we go, but overall I can recognize a lot of progress in a very short time (I started this thread just 2 weeks ago)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Rusty Bucket Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 (edited) I can recognize a lot of progress in a very short time (I started this thread just 2 weeks ago)... This can happen when you have a much clearer picture of what you want from your dog and how to communicate that to her. :) This is a good article on different dog social abilities. http://www.badrap.org/dogdog-tolerance My dog was dog social but she's more like dog selective now. but it is habitat (place) selective ie she's much more social at the beach - tho much choosier about who she thinks is appropriate to greet. Doesn't greet all the willing greeters. Certainly doesn't greet the intolerant leave me alone dogs. Edited October 13, 2015 by Mrs Rusty Bucket Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simply Grand Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 ...an update: we did a longer beach walk on Sunday together with 2 other families and their dogs (the other 2 dogs are just a few month older than our dog), most of the time off leash. They ran and played for nearly 2 hours and had a ball. They must have covered 10 times the distance we walked by chasing each other across the beach. She behaved really good (no aggression at all, gentle to the other kids), and I could recognize that she was much more careful (more matured, more "normal") when off leash and approaching other dogs we met along the way. I tried a few recalls ...actually pretty good, not perfect, but pretty good. This evening I will do some 'trigger zone training' when walking her, let's see how we go, but overall I can recognize a lot of progress in a very short time (I started this thread just 2 weeks ago)... Good news :) that's all it's all about, showing her that she CAN have all the good things but that you are the one who decides what and when, and it's worth her while listening to you. Make sure you keep up the rewards for coming while she's improving on the recalls, and chuck in lots of easy ones to set her up to be reminded how great coming to you is even when there are other fun things to be enjoyed, so call her and reward when she's still close and when she happens to already be running towards you anyway, as well as in more challenging situations when she's further away, heading for a play etc. So nice hearing the updates too, thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted October 14, 2015 Author Share Posted October 14, 2015 A big Thank You for all the advice given here!!!! The transformation our dog made over the last 2 1/2 weeks is amazing - during the agility training this evening I could keep her focus for most of the time on me and the obstacles; standing in a circle with the other dogs just 2 meters away to the left and to the right and she still followed my commands ... sit ... drop ...stay...her eyes on me...AMAZING ...my wife walked her this afternoon before agility training and was surprised that she didn't go 'nuts' when meeting other dogs! ...she is so much more matured now, you have to see it to believe it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 Fantastic! I concentrate on "focus" as a separate training exercise with all my dogs - it's just fabulous when they ignore all the distractions and engage with you. The rest will flow :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simply Grand Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 Yay! You've obviously shown her that she can have self control and that's it's actually worth using it. l love it when all the training efforts click into place for the dog and they are like"Oooohh I get it!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Rusty Bucket Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 Someone on my FB just shared a really nice Denise Fenzi link about training a dog to be calm when greeting... And about how you can't train a dog that is way too excited... It also nicely showed short training sessions < 5 minutes with a break between. http://denisefenzipetdogs.com/2015/09/14/hyper-greeters-jumping-up-extreme/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted October 15, 2015 Author Share Posted October 15, 2015 ...I'm not sure whether this is the best approach...in some way this is the opposite of what I did in the last 2 weeks with our dog by not rewarding her with what she likes to do, respectively by prohibiting that she plays with the trigger / other dogs. The methodology shown in the link let the dog focus on the trigger respectively allow the dog to take the focus from the owner. Wouldn't it be better to find out what the trigger distance is, start controlling the dog in this safe area and reducing the distance to the trigger slowly?....that's what I did in the last weeks following the advise given here and obviously it worked for me :D ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simply Grand Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 Interesting. I need to re-read and consider the post a bit more to consolidate my thoughts but after an initial read through I'm inclined to agree with you Willem. My Aussie Shepherd Quinn has long been an excited greeter of people, especially children, and is inclined to jump at faces and the training I've done with her has certainly involved starting at a distance where she could control herself and gradually getting closer and closer as she learns to control herself right up to the point of now being able to greet people with four feet on the floor. I'm not convinced that a treat, however good it was, in the hand of the person she was excited to greet would have held her focus enough to stop her jumping at the person. Like I said, I'll have another look at the article tomorrow and see what I think though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted October 15, 2015 Author Share Posted October 15, 2015 (edited) IMO there are too many contradictions in this approach: she says "...do not allow your dog to get to people..." and then recommends the employment of a helper: for the dog there is no difference between helper and other people. Furthermore the dog gets the message that it is ok. to approach the other person (against the owner's will) and this gets even reinforced by the treat. Using the treat for this purpose represents IMO another flaw: for me the treat is a tool to get the dog's focus and reinforce correct behavior. But in the video the dog didn't get the treat although the dog was lured by the treat into doing something special...that's confusing...the next time I want to get the dog's focus using a treat it might not work anymore! In the video the lady 'verifies' the success of this trainings method by repeating it - after a break - and interpreting the reduced interest of the dog as accomplishment. IMO the dogs is only responding to the experience it just had - minutes ago - with this helper (her). If tomorrow another person will be at the gate I doubt whether this method will show any success. IMO the only accomplishment achieved in the video was 'calming down' the dog - but the owner 'pays a high price' for it: The biggest flaw is that the owner gives up the control and leave what happens to the dog and the helper...a different person on the gate and the dog will investigate again on its own terms what's going on as the dog is not trained to follow the owners commands: recall? ...won't work....sit? ...stay?...drop?...won't work - and it is not the dog's mistake as the dog wasn't trained to do this. I think the approach the lady recommends is just wrong and even compromises other trainings methods based on reinforcements with treats. Comparing the approach from the link with what I did over the last weeks: our dog was (still is, but it improved significantly) a 'hyper greeter' regarding other dogs (trigger). So I calm her down by increasing the distance between the trigger (= moving her away from other dogs) till I get her focus back. When I can control her I reinforce her good behavior with treats and decrease the distance to the trigger and so on. I can't see why this method shouldn't work for the scenario shown in the video clip respectively for visitors. Edited October 15, 2015 by Willem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roova Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 I really like this method for teaching no jumping on people, or rather it teaches a preferred behaviour of four on the floor. There's a video with a lab puppy half way down which demonstrates it beautifully. http://www.clickertraining.com/how-to-teach-your-puppy-not-to-jump Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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