sheena Posted November 25, 2015 Author Share Posted November 25, 2015 I tried something different with my dogs yesterday. Their release word is "ok" . They have to drop & stay to be able to go out the gate for their walk. Often I will put them into a drop/stay then do all the things you mention along with using all sorts of different words/chatter/counting/body movements/false starts etc. But yesterday I led out & looked back at them and said "no-one is to move till I say "OK"...so Ok was used in a different context. I thought they would self release, but elbows twitched a bit & then they gave me the "you can't trick me look" :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Rusty Bucket Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 I thought they would self release, but elbows twitched a bit & then they gave me the "you can't trick me look" Dogs are really good at "context". Susan Garrett does this kind of thing to her dogs all the time... she's got three or so parked behind her during a coaching call and she's telling all us web customers how to train - using all her cue words... and her dogs, ok maybe not the puppy, know she's not talking to them. They also know about dog name + "break" - means only one of them gets to move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 (edited) I think there is a lovely blurry line between reward and aversive, between "do something" and "stopping the self reinforcement" (don't do something).... I think it's mostly about intention - are you trying to teach your dog to do something "do let go" or don't do something - don't bite. It's a lot harder for dog to figure out "don't" and there is a small risk that you will cause problems when you want to put your finger down your dog's throat and he won't let you because that's what you trained. I do gently push my hand towards the back of my dog's mouth if she grabs a bit hard and doesn't instantly spit me out when I stop moving. Don't have to do that very often. Usually a freeze (of the grabbed bit) and a look is enough. But if I want to open her mouth and look around and poke my fingers in there - I can. Sometimes the dog doesn't make the right connection when you use an aversive. Ie how much trouble do they have with "no treat for that" when they're used to being rewarded? hm, sounds more 'gentle' than 'finger in the throat' :) ...it definitely doesn't make our dog fearful, she comes licks the hands, and she has a lot of trust in me when it comes to tackle new equipment on the agility course: last time we introduced the chute - it's 'point and shoot' for her, she goes through it like a bullet...I guess I could point to a burning tire and she would jump through. The nibbling / mouthing was pretty annoying for the kids and also for me, but it stopped totally now, except, when training for agility: sometimes (rarely) she wants to start it again respectively gets her crazy 30 seconds. The reasons for this (my opinion - others might be more experienced) is that she was just bred to do so: my hands are nothing else than a limb, it is no big difference 'playing chasing cattle and get them going by mouthing their legs' and doing an agility run with some arms waving around...now if you pull your arms back to avoid the mouthing: the dog is in the move and will try to nib something else...it doesn't happend at the beginning of the training, but when her focus is exhausted - that's when the instincts come through and 'she forgets that she doesn't want to nibble'. wrt 'choices': taking my fingers or arm in her mouth or to leave it (and just lick them or touch them)...that's clearly her choice...and she knows this, however, when the training is too long and she is overstimulated, the instinct comes through. ETA: yesterday in training I 'crated' her the first time away from the group in the car for 10 minutes when I could recognize she lost focus - after this she did 2 very impressive (for her age) runs (jumps, tire, pause table, tunnel, chute in both directions, except the chute of course). ETA: I guess the characteristic that BCs like to chase 'limbs' might be one of the reasons why they are so easy to train for agility...yesterday I could also recognize that other breeds - while still following the owners hands - doing it in a somehow 'not so attached' way. Edited November 25, 2015 by Willem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 The problem I see when we correct things like the behaviour you are describing, Willem, is that in this context it often doesn't address the actual cause of the behaviour and even if she stops doing it, I would be very surprised if you don't see other symptoms arise because the root problem hasn't been addressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 (edited) I don't do agility but to look at this from a simpler perspective - it sounds like he might see you as the Fun Police, someone who is stopping him from doing what he wants to do (running the course) rather than seeing listening to you as the way he gets access to reward. I see this a lot with handlers whose dogs have a higher value for obstacles than the rewards the handle has to offer. If he is running a course and you release him to reward will he stop what he is doing to get rewarded or will he keep going on the course? Huski....you have got it in one...that is exactly what I feel he is doing. He distance handles beautifully & I could pretty much do a novice course with him, just with me standing in the middle & directing him. But for some reason he doesn't like me getting in front of him as you have to do with a lot of these new moves required for Masters. That's why it feels like he is trying to herd me or slow me down. Maybe when you are in front of him he sees you as blocking his access to fun (equipment)? If he is mid way through the course and you release him to his favourite reward (food/tug) would he stop running the course to come to you to get rewarded? If not that would indicate to me that there is a problem with your reward system, he should believe working with you gives him access to the things he loves to do and your rewards, not that you are the fun police or getting in the way of fun. Edited November 25, 2015 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 If I make a handler error in heel work Wiz's favourite way to vent at me is to nose punch me in the boob. :laugh: Oh dear! Gees they are funny! If I make a handler error in heel work Wiz's favourite way to vent at me is to nose punch me in the boob. :laugh: Oh dear! Gees they are funny! In a Schadenfraude kind of way :laugh: If I make a handler error in heel work Wiz's favourite way to vent at me is to nose punch me in the boob. :laugh: I knew there was a reason I like to keep my dog on the outside of my elbows... tho she usually gets me on the waist or ribs... if she was a little bit taller... Malinois.... who would have them?? :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheena Posted November 25, 2015 Author Share Posted November 25, 2015 I don't do agility but to look at this from a simpler perspective - it sounds like he might see you as the Fun Police, someone who is stopping him from doing what he wants to do (running the course) rather than seeing listening to you as the way he gets access to reward. I see this a lot with handlers whose dogs have a higher value for obstacles than the rewards the handle has to offer. If he is running a course and you release him to reward will he stop what he is doing to get rewarded or will he keep going on the course? Huski....you have got it in one...that is exactly what I feel he is doing. He distance handles beautifully & I could pretty much do a novice course with him, just with me standing in the middle & directing him. But for some reason he doesn't like me getting in front of him as you have to do with a lot of these new moves required for Masters. That's why it feels like he is trying to herd me or slow me down. Maybe when you are in front of him he sees you as blocking his access to fun (equipment)? If he is mid way through the course and you release him to his favourite reward (food/tug) would he stop running the course to come to you to get rewarded? If not that would indicate to me that there is a problem with your reward system, he should believe working with you gives him access to the things he loves to do and your rewards, not that you are the fun police or getting in the way of fun. I will try that & see what he does :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 I don't do agility but to look at this from a simpler perspective - it sounds like he might see you as the Fun Police, someone who is stopping him from doing what he wants to do (running the course) rather than seeing listening to you as the way he gets access to reward. I see this a lot with handlers whose dogs have a higher value for obstacles than the rewards the handle has to offer. If he is running a course and you release him to reward will he stop what he is doing to get rewarded or will he keep going on the course? Huski....you have got it in one...that is exactly what I feel he is doing. He distance handles beautifully & I could pretty much do a novice course with him, just with me standing in the middle & directing him. But for some reason he doesn't like me getting in front of him as you have to do with a lot of these new moves required for Masters. That's why it feels like he is trying to herd me or slow me down. Maybe when you are in front of him he sees you as blocking his access to fun (equipment)? If he is mid way through the course and you release him to his favourite reward (food/tug) would he stop running the course to come to you to get rewarded? If not that would indicate to me that there is a problem with your reward system, he should believe working with you gives him access to the things he loves to do and your rewards, not that you are the fun police or getting in the way of fun. ...or he feels like you just added another feature to the game by playing the 'cattle' for him :) (no offence meant)...and now he gets mixed up with his instincts and what he learned so far... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 The problem I see when we correct things like the behaviour you are describing, Willem, is that in this context it often doesn't address the actual cause of the behaviour and even if she stops doing it, I would be very surprised if you don't see other symptoms arise because the root problem hasn't been addressed. ...but when it comes to instinct you can only correct respectively manage the behavior that results from this instinct, you can't correct the instinct as the cause for this behaviour? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 The problem I see when we correct things like the behaviour you are describing, Willem, is that in this context it often doesn't address the actual cause of the behaviour and even if she stops doing it, I would be very surprised if you don't see other symptoms arise because the root problem hasn't been addressed. ...but when it comes to instinct you can only correct respectively manage the behavior that results from this instinct, you can't correct the instinct as the cause for this behaviour? It's not about whether the way she exhibits frustration is instinctive, it is about why she is exhibiting frustration in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 The problem I see when we correct things like the behaviour you are describing, Willem, is that in this context it often doesn't address the actual cause of the behaviour and even if she stops doing it, I would be very surprised if you don't see other symptoms arise because the root problem hasn't been addressed. ...but when it comes to instinct you can only correct respectively manage the behavior that results from this instinct, you can't correct the instinct as the cause for this behaviour? It's not about whether the way she exhibits frustration is instinctive, it is about why she is exhibiting frustration in the first place. I'm pretty sure that most of the time our dog tried starting mouthing it is not because she is frustrated ...a sheep dog doing a good job using all its breed specific skills when moving sheep doesn't do it because its frustrated? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 (edited) It's not about whether the way she exhibits frustration is instinctive, it is about why she is exhibiting frustration in the first place. Sheepdogs are not supposed to mouth the sheep, they get in trouble for that! Biting is only permitted if the sheep are being particularly difficult and won't move. My older Kelpie (working bred Kelpie, WKC registered from well known stud) showed no inclination to bite the sheep the times I have done herding. He got excited, sure, and wanted them to move so he had something to do lol, and barked at them when they didn't move, but at no time did he even look like biting them. Some dogs do tend to bite the sheep, and it can be due to frustration in that case too, but it is certainly not desirable and they will do their best to get it out of them. Working stock with dogs should be about less stressful ways of managing and moving the stock, which certainly means no biting unless necessary (if cattle are standing up to and charging the dog) Edited November 26, 2015 by Kavik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheena Posted November 26, 2015 Author Share Posted November 26, 2015 I agree...a good sheep dog should not bite the stock, especially border collies. Blue Heelers bite the heels, but that is what they are bred for & why they are called heelers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Rusty Bucket Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 what kavik said. Cattle dogs - are reputed to have some instinct to nip on the ankle (or the nose) of a difficult beast, and then duck so they don't get kicked in the head. But any herding dog that bites when it isn't necessary or causes harm, is not worth keeping. All dogs need to have "bite inhibition", and that does come with training. There is something called "instinct drift" (I think) where you're training against instinct - ie why recall (or herding) is harder to train with a sight hound than a herding dog. If you have a dog that has the instinct to catch their handler/owner and tear her to pieces - you might not want to be keeping that dog. Or training it to chase you (part of agility). All dogs are supposed to know the difference between their owner (teeth off) and prey or even other dogs (ok to play bitey face). And if you can't get that with training - not a good dog to have. Ie a herding dog is useless if you can't call it off the sheep. So a herding dog in the city that chases bicycles and won't come when it's called is not better off on a farm chasing sheep. It's going to have a very short life if you give a dog like that to a farmer. But - you can train it. You must train it. Like Pavlov's dogs start slobbering when they hear the door of the lab opening (with their dinner). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 (edited) Finally getting some good solutions to our barking problem (caused by confusion) Confusion of when to be in RZ, when to stay, and when to leave RZ. So I did each component separately - RZ on cue and only reward when it is cued. Then RZ and take a step and cue RZ. Work on my sending separately. Work on Crate Games. I have now added RZ to Crate Games, so can release from crate, cue RZ, turn around, he sits, I reward, wait for FF and then give his "Box" crate cue. LOL don't know if any of that made sense to anybody else :laugh: Edited November 26, 2015 by Kavik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Rusty Bucket Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 Made sense to me Kavik... Tho I think with RZ - isn't that supposed to be the default on release sort of. Ok - now I'm confused, cos I know Susan Garrett cues it sometimes and other times - she just uses her release word. And then it's context and value for what the dog sees as to what the dog does on release. RZ - reinforcement zone... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 My problem was that Nitro was barking and bouncing when I left him in a stationary position and when I was sending him to do an obstacle, so he wasn't sure if he was supposed to be staying in/following RZ or not. So I worked RZ cue and release from RZ to a treat, and sit in RZ, I take a step and cue RZ. (my RZ is not anywhere near as pretty as SG's :laugh: ) Value for obstacles and crate. Including verbals. When in RZ in front of crate or obstacle, I then wait for FF to release to crate or obstacle. This is what was giving me grief before I did this remedial training, and where he would bark and bounce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 ok...learned something new about sheep dogs, and yes it was confusing (@ Kavik) and thanks Mrs Rusted Bucket for the hint for 'RZ' ...saved me some time ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 Made sense to me Kavik... Tho I think with RZ - isn't that supposed to be the default on release sort of. Ok - now I'm confused, cos I know Susan Garrett cues it sometimes and other times - she just uses her release word. And then it's context and value for what the dog sees as to what the dog does on release. RZ - reinforcement zone... I'm working on RZ as the default release when I'm standing right next to water. That's a wow moment for obsessed Spaniels! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 Yeah I figured the only ones likely to understand what I wrote were MRB and TSD as we all follow Susan Garrett! :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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