Socialisation & Neutralisation

[Kelpie-i]

K9: the biggest e collar market in Oz are farmers, lil bit of trivia for you...

Saves shooting them when you can train past things that you previously couldnt.

Hi K9, I'm not doubting you, it's just that I know a lot of farmers with dogs who herd their stock and if the dog is a ratback or doesn't perform, it either gets given away or is shot.

[Steve K9Pro]

K:

Hi K9, I'm not doubting you, it's just that I know a lot of farmers with dogs who herd their stock and if the dog is a ratback or doesn't perform, it either gets given away or is shot.

K9: I 100% know what you mean, but I think it started when they had a good dog that developed a problem, thne they fixed it with e collar, & then went from there.

[Purple Julie]

I have thought up another question about your S&N program. Can it be undone? By that, I mean after going through all the S&N stuff with your dog when it is young and having a well neutralised dog, when the dog is older, say, and your dog has several positive experiences with people patting and playing with him, will he then attach a positive value to people, or not, because the groundwork was done when the dog was a puppy and it won't change?

[Akitagal]

Sorry but what is TOT?

[ish]

Triangle of Temptation

[Akitagal]

LOL! Thanku. But now my next question is what is the Triangle of Temptation! Sorry am new to all this. Is there a link u can refer me to to see?

[ish]

Its from K9 Force - seen in this thread http://forums.dogzonline.com.au/index.php?...emptation&st=15

but it was hard to find so here it is (hope thats ok K9)

Triangle of Temptation.

I use this program with every dog I train. It’s remarkably effective for gaining control with no force. I have used it with dogs for many years that have been trained to engage a man in combat & would not hesitate to attack me if it were not for this program. It works equally well on weak nerved or problem dogs...

The best part about this program is that it gives confidence & obedience control with no conflict & it takes no time as you need to feed the dog anyway...

The bases of this program is to have the dog look to you for guidance & permission to partake in anything you say that the dog can, including food, toys, game etc & the whole thing is a set up in which the dog gains success.

To begin the program we must follow basic training principles, they are the learning phase, the correction phase & the distraction phase.

Whilst few corrections if any are given by the handler to the dog, the corrections are given by negative punishment methods of withholding something the dog thought was his/hers.

The key to starting is to have a food driven dog, if you don’t have a dog with a high food drive, miss the meal before you start or at least reduce it by ¾. Fasting is healthy for dogs.

Now you have a dog that wants the food.

Prepare the meal inside & this should be done after all higher members have eaten.

Next back tie your dog with a flat buckle collar (non correctional collar) & rope to something solid in your yard. Make sure all other dogs are out of site, we are looking for as low a distraction as possible.

Allow your dog to relax on the back tie, a few minutes is usually enough.

Now bring out your dogs food & place it several metres in front of the dog, enough distance so the dog can see it but not so close as he can almost stretch to get it, most times about 5 – 8 metres is great.

Now you will find our dog looking at the food, possibly trying to get to it, this is what you want.

If the dog is going to hysterics, move the food further away.

What it shows is that the dog thinks that he is entitled to the food, but that’s not the case.

Approach your dog & stand at his right hand side. Pick up the leash & stand quietly whilst the dog gets all excited for the food.

One of two things will happen, either the dog will go on & on & just stare at the food or he will sit down & look at you.

If he doesn’t sit down, use the leash to guide the dog into a sit, call the dog by name. You want to see the dog look at you, when he/she does be quick to release the dog with an OK command & let the dog loose to eat the food, you should sound very happy.

The next evening you will repeat the same. This exercise is very effective, as you need to feed your dogs anyway, so they may as well learn at the same time.

You are looking to repeat this until when you place the food down, the dog looks at you & not the food. I can have most dogs do this in 2 – 4 days.

Looking at you means the dog sees you as the person in charge; he has given up staring at the food as he knows that it’s you who say when he can have it, & he can only have it when you say so.

The triangle is formed by drawing a line between you, the dog & the treasure.

When you have a good sit stay, as that is what is being built here, you can remove the back tie & keep it in your hands, if the dog should break the stay, you begin again.

Your looking to increase the time the dog has to stay sitting by 10 seconds per day until you get over three minutes.

When three minutes has been gained & you will be certain you can go farther, start to increase the distance between you & the dog, whilst holding the tie out rope.

You should increase this distance by increments of 1 metre.

Up until you did this, the dog was viewing the food (treasure) as unobtainable, & you as unbeatable.

Now by increasing the distance the dog will start to feel the food is obtainable & you just might be beat able.

The long rope will teach the dog very quickly that you are not.

The rule you need to remember is:

Time before distance before distraction.

This is essential for a marked improvement every day.

When you find yourself able to wander inside while the food bowl sits there UN touched by the dog, you’re ready to add distraction.

Allow a second dog now to eat from its own bowl perhaps, remain out of site for a period of time, and change the environment to outside the front gate perhaps. These are just some ways to add distraction.

Build reliability into your dog by working it.

When you’re at this level you will never have a dominance problem with your dog, you can’t have, he looks at you to make the big decisions, like when he can have his treasure.

Feel free to substitute the food for another treasure, such as a treat, ball, toy or an open back door or front gate.

The key is that this gives you control of all the treasures in life, each repetition is positively rewarded at the end by allowing the dog the treasure, when you say he can have it.

Advanced moves can be easily trained such as recalling the dog past the food, from the food etc etc.

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This article is copyright protected (2004) © and can not be used or distributed without K9 force consent. You are, however, allowed to distrubute this link to direct people to this site.

[Akitagal]

Thankyou so much for taking time to reply. That sounds great!!

[dougie]

wrong forum........

Edited February 28, 2006 by dougie

[Steve K9Pro]

with Dougies post removed, there was no need for mine...

Edited February 28, 2006 by K9 Force

[Erny]

with Dougies post removed, there was no need for mine...

Although I would have been interested in your response, K9 ... Unlike Dougie's, there's usually something from you that's informative and educational.

[oonga]

WOW what a read!!! took me all day on and off LOL

lots of interesting information and really has me thinking.

my idea of socialization has been turned upside down

i am having that whole thing of parenthood...wanting to do the best for our girl and getting information overload and i think

k9 i have a few questions to ask if you are not over answering on this topic.

1. what is the absolute latest age you can start to teach your puppy neutralization.. we are getting our puppy tomorrow, but she will be 14and a half weeks old, i have a feeling this may be too old, but would appreciate your input.

i was going to expose her to lots of socialization over the next week and a half to try and get as much as we can while the " ímprinting " stage is still happening, but then realized she would also be approaching that first fear stage, so wondered if we would be better off not doing too much, as she will also have the whole new home factor happening, meeting a cat possibly for the first time in her life, i will follow your advice on this and make all her socialization at this age safe.

i have saved your article on the TOT as i think there is no real age barrier to this and think it sounds like a great thing to teach our puppy.

2.she will be attending the rotty club of victoria training on wednesday nights, obviously your dogs don't need to go to training classes LOL but do you consider this ok/safe at her age? i figure we are going to need to take her to some sort of training as my knowledge of training is almost next to nothing!!

looking forward to your input.

cheers

oonga

[Steve K9Pro]

hat is the absolute latest age you can start to teach your puppy neutralization.. we are getting our puppy tomorrow, but she will be 14and a half weeks old, i have a feeling this may be too old, but would appreciate your input

K9: socialisation is showing a dog something new, & assigning a value to it...

either positive, neutral or negative..

generally we have been taught assign a positive value, I feel neutral is better...

if your dog already has a value of other dogs assigned, its too late..

she will be attending the rotty club of victoria training on wednesday nights, obviously your dogs don't need to go to training classes LOL but do you consider this ok/safe at her age? i figure we are going to need to take her to some sort of training as my knowledge of training is almost next to nothing!!

K9: it largely depends on the instructor at the time....

[oonga]

thanks for your quick response k9, much appreciated, i don't know if puppy has been taught positive or negative value towards other dogs, i mean she has been living with other dogs, but they are generally from what i can gather in seperate dog runs, is there are a way to know/test if she has been taught neutral, positve or negative values towards other dogs?

cheers

oonga

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: by the dogs reaction to other dogs...

[oonga]

excellent, thanks for your time

[spikey]

Long time ago when my dog was a pupp and wanted to play with any dog I was at the beach and there was a woman there with a dog that was just looking at her all the time, fetching ball and couldnt care about the rest of the world. The owner was the world.

I asked the lady if my dog can play with hers, she said no problems, but mine will not play, she doesnt want to play with other dogs, all she wants to do is play with me.

At the time I didnt think much of it, this just brought the memory. I recall how happy that dog was, how focused, how eager etc. It was just to die for.

I have only just come across this topic - it's made interesting reading, although unfortunately I haven't had time to go through all the posts so this subject may already have been raised ......

I just wonder in a situation like that quoted above, where the dog is totally focussed on the owner, the owner is their entire world ..... what happens if the owner is hospitalised or has to go away for a period of time, the dog has to be kennelled or something similar, or be cared for by someone else in a different environment possibly with other dogs around etc? How distressing might this be for the dog if they are completely "attached" to one person and then that person (for whatever reason) is not there for a long period of time. I know of dogs who will fret and refuse to eat if their owner has to go away, these dogs cannot be kennelled or cared for even by family members, the owners can never go away without their dog for ANY reason. I mean, we all want our dogs to think we are their world but not at the expense of our dog's mental wellbeing if we have to be parted from them (not that any of us enjoy that!).

Maybe a bit OT but I'd be interested in comments on this (especially K9)

Edited March 3, 2006 by spikey

[Lablover]

I am not Steve, but I think my labs, are similar to the dog you observed.

Rarely I leave my dogs with others, but when I do it is with trusted friends or family. They have no issues.

Ask any highly regarding boarding kennel. No dog will starve. There are many high level establishments who pass dogs to other handlers.

We miss the dogs more than they miss us. Fickle creatures. They are happy to gain satisfaction from virtually anyone.

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: Just like Lablover said, they get by...

Never had the problem....

[KismetKat]

OK - not read all 24 pages - but did read the first 5 and then this last one. So sorry if this has been asked/said before. It's SO hard with such a lengthy thread.

Firstly, my dog is 2 years old and I don't think I did all that stuff that I am apparently meant to have done in the first 12 months.

So, is it too late?

Secondly, part of the joy I get out of my dog is watching her romp and play with her doggie friends. I would not give that up for quids as I get so much enjoyment out of it. Their antics make my heart sing.

Thirdly - danger of playing.

Well I have been going to the same park for 2 years now and at the times I go there are generally the same people/dogs there. I guess they are a 'loose"pack. (????) They know each other and have their special friends and genrally all get on (or ignore). Given the circumstances (regulars) does this make it a semi-controlled environment and is 'semi-controlled' enough? Certainly my dog recently got a bit snappish (and I say snappish, not overly aggressive) with some younger boisterous dogs, but with some advice from Erny and some firm words that now seems all under control.

Fourthly - all that being said I do want a reliable recall when offlead. Her recall is fairly good, but yes there are those deaf moments. I want to addresss those which is why I am interested in K9's workshps when he comes down here. But how hardline must one be with a family pet??? I am not after shutzhund stuff, I am just after a dog who will recall no matter what! Or is there very little difference in the level of control/training between stopping a defence dog from biting, and the simple matter of having an errant dog come when called?