Why Are Only Certain Breeds

[bex]

Hi Guys,

Now I understand fundamentally why certain breeds will perform better than others in this sport, but why have they put a restriction on breeds that are eligible to be trained?? If dogs are assessed as to their capabilites in the sport already, then why can't they open it up to all large breeds (for example) and assess eligibility on case by case basis?? For example why couldn't any of the mastiff breeds be involved in shutzhund?? I'm sure there would be some dogs out there of different breeds who would be quite capable of achieving good results in this sport.

For those who don't know these are the only breeds eligible for Shutzhund training;

BREEDS ELIGIBLE FOR SCHUTZHUND TRAINING

German Shepherd Dog, Boxer, Dobermann, Rottweiler, Giant Schnauzer, Airedale Terrier, Bouvier Des Flandres, Hovawart, Belgian Shepherd (Groendael, Malinois, Tervueren, Laekenois), Berger de Beauce, Berger de Brie, Berger Des Pyrenees A Face Rase, Berger Des Pyrenees A Museau Normal, Berger Picard, Lapinkoira, Suomenpystykorva.

Bex

[MonElite]

From what I uderstand if you have a mastif you can do sch. I have even found a lab doing it.

I dont know where did you find this "rule" but there are great danes doing it, baucerons, and they are not listed in there.

There are certain breeds that will do better at it not becouse the temperament but becouse of the physical abilites they have.

A mastif being a heavy dog might not have enough endurance to work for prolonged amonts of time, or might not be agile enough to do the high jumps.

Edited February 2, 2006 by myszka

[yogibear]

i thought any breed could to the temp test part but only certain ones could go on only gundogs are allowed to do retrieivng trials and herding breeds herding trials

[MonElite]

perhaps yb, I do know that baucerons are definitelly doing sch, and they are not listed in there.

[bex]

I contacted a brisbane shutzhund training club and was referrred to this website:

http://www.dogs4sale.com.au/Schutzhund.htm

and was told that I would find the list of eligible dogs, which I have posted.

I didn't know that you could do just certain "parts" of the training.

Perhaps I will contact this club again to clarify.

It did appear that the only dogs in this club were GSD's from the pics on their website.

[bex]

i thought any breed could to the temp test part but only certain ones could go on only gundogs are allowed to do retrieivng trials and herding breeds herding trials

I didn't think there was any herding in shutzhund ?

[bex]

Ok, so I have a response back from the club about this issue, just in case anyone was interested, which no one really appears to be!!

"Our Club's constitution prevents us from accepting other breeds.

Our club considers itself very focused on active member participation toward the goal of trialing both locally and Nationally in sport of Schutzhund so we only accept dogs that can trial under AUS rules.

Different Clubs may have different policies. "

So there is one other local club who I have checked with, but looks like those clubs that are really focused on excellence in this sport will only accept the breeds that can compete. Fair enough I guess!! A pity for those interested in the sport that don't own one of the required breeds, though! Not everyone wants to compete, but that is the clubs prerogative, I guess!

[wolfie]

Hi myszka, is 'bauceron' another term for the Beauceron? If so they were in the first list by bex, Berger de Beauce and Berger de Brie, being the original French names for the closely related Beauceron and Briard.

[MonElite]

Thanks wolfie - I have just learned something new! Yes I was referring to the Beauceron (poor speller I am)

Funny how they will take the dogs of a breed we dont have in Australia... (or at least officially)

[Kelpie-i]

Interesting thread.

I was once told that the only reason they accept certain breeds and not others is because the breeds chosen have a "switch off" temperament. I suppose this means that they are able to turn the dog off by a single command more easily whilst other breeds can remain a little stubborn.

This is only what I was told

[Kavik]

I know there are Cattle Dogs, Dutch Shepherds, Amstaffs and American Bulldogs doing Schutzhund in the USA - have seen pictures on club websites.

[malinwar]

i said before any dog can do schutzhund but its upto the discretion of the club...sadly most clubs arent moving forwad there moving back, and they wonder why they got less than 20 people to attend the nationals last year

edit for spelling

Edited February 3, 2006 by malinwar

[KatrinaM]

Well said Malinwar.

[Tall-dog]

Its allways down to an individual club what can and cannot - but some of te other problems are that helpers simply dont have the experience of many breeds and a helper working with any of the very heavy dogs is really getting fatigued quite fast and loosing his abilties, they are also only trained for one or two breeds anyway.

The other thing is that for the world championships, which is what its all about anyway, there is no way many of the larger, less agile and slower reacting dogs would get anywhere-if the dogs dont then the club doesn't.

At the end of the day an agile breed which does not exhaust very quickley because of the weight it has to carry will work at otimum capability all day, few of the mastiff types have that stanima and mainatain speed and agility at the end of a day.

You will find in Europe they breed much lighter dogs for SchH than their working counterparts for the simple reason they get more points, which is what SchH is all about, but put the same dogs in real life working role and they are simply not strong or heavy enough and most would not have the character to train as far as a real life working personal protection dog.

Haveing said all that why dont a few enthusiasts of your breed start training as licenced helpers and start your own club or try and find a helper apart from that, good helpers are few and far between,if there are to many barriers with clubs, anyone can start a club if they want to, relying on someone elses club to change the rules they are satisfied with is a bit much?

Edited February 4, 2006 by Tall-dog

[Nekhbet]

Remember the poor person in the bite suite!

can you imagine a 70kg mastiff hurtling towards you, grabbing your arm and following through with some great head shakes?

I wouldnt think there would be much left of that shoulder! My 25kg Mal can knock over a 100kg person easily and her bites have left marks through some softer sleeves (gone to work with some great munchy marks at times up my arm). The point of protection is to protect and (well in some cases ) not to permanently maime the aggressor. Also, some breeds have it in their nature to not let go or to 'bring down' per say which can be dangerous in a sporting context. Even a Black Russian Terrier would make a formidable protection dog at its size let alone something with an even stronger jaw.

Some clubs can simply have the snobbery factory where they want to keep it exclusive to the breeds such as Mal, GSD, Rottie, Dobe, etc but some are also thinking about liability and wether they (or the dogs owner) can handle a massive animal trained to protect.

[malinwar]

well there not going to get experience sitting back and handling only 3 breeds of dog...

for the protection part in schutzhund it lasts 2 minutes....i cannot name a dog that cant work for 2 minutes, its got nothing to do with the speed/time anyway most judges critiques these days are that dogs are rushing through everything too fast and arent doing it properly

it maybe about gaining titles now, but it used to be about breed assesment not glorifying yourself with your dogs titles

you can always make a sleeve harder, i have had various mastiff breeds on my bite arm and have had no problems

[Jeff Jones]

Now I understand fundamentally why certain breeds will perform better than others in this sport, but why have they put a restriction on breeds that are eligible to be trained??

schutzhund australia uses FCI rules and regulations so only dogs listed as working/guard breeds with the FCI can be trialed,

[bex]

schutzhund australia uses FCI rules and regulations so only dogs listed as working/guard breeds with the FCI can be trialed,

Was not talking about trialing... I know why you can't trial a different breed. Was just talking about training them in the sport... you know for the enjoyment and satisfaction of it.

Edited February 27, 2006 by bex

[bulldogz4eva]

Many years ago I went down to the schutzund club here in the west as I wanted to train my dog.I did a bit of work and they liked my dog and I asked if I could join.They said they would have to ask the governing body in the Eastern States and get back to me.The answer was no.The dog in question was an American Pit Bull Terrier.They told me I could come along and train but could never compete so I didnt bother.My dog had plenty of ability but once again discrimination got in the way.

BREEDS ELIGIBLE FOR SCHUTZHUND TRAINING

German Shepherd Dog, Boxer, Dobermann, Rottweiler, Giant Schnauzer, Airedale Terrier, Bouvier Des Flandres, Hovawart, Belgian Shepherd (Groendael, Malinois, Tervueren, Laekenois), Berger de Beauce, Berger de Brie, Berger Des Pyrenees A Face Rase, Berger Des Pyrenees A Museau Normal, Berger Picard, Lapinkoira, Suomenpystykorva.

I gather this list is only for Austra;lia because there are plenty of other dogs shcutzund titled elsewhere in the world that do not appear there.

"Our Club's constitution prevents us from accepting other breeds.

This reads because we have our heads up our asses and wouldnt know a good dog if it jumped up and bit us.

know there are Cattle Dogs, Dutch Shepherds, Amstaffs and American Bulldogs doing Schutzhund in the USA - have seen pictures on club websites.

The Germans tried to have other dogs banned from the sport several years ago and make it only for German dogs after an American Bulldog went all the way to SCHIII in 4 months which is a record.Obviously they had their noses put out of joint.The dog was Banuelos Predator owned and trained by AL Banuelos.You can find it on the net if you search for it.Any dog can make a a schutzund dog or shgould I rephrase that.Just about any breed can make a schutzund dog it just depends on the individual dog.

If they want the sport to grow and flourish they should open their eyes.Not everyone wants to own a shepherd breed.

[bex]

If they want the sport to grow and flourish they should open their eyes.Not everyone wants to own a shepherd breed.

This is my sentiments exactly!!!

So what if I can't compete here - don't they think that by opening up the sport to other breeds, people might gain a better understanding of the sport, and hence there will less issues with the sport being called an "attack dogs sport".

Just wanted to have whinge about it, because there appears to be no clubs in my area willing to train any breed!