wheres my rock Posted July 1, 2006 Share Posted July 1, 2006 hi guys We lost our puppy today to a liver shunt i understand how it works but cant help wondering if soemthing underlying triggere it in such a young dog he was just under four mnths and showed no symptoms until this week also he had his vaccs on thursday coudl that have caused hi to go down hil so fast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hazz Posted July 1, 2006 Share Posted July 1, 2006 I'm so sorry to hear about your loss Is it possible that he reacted to the vaccination ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheres my rock Posted July 1, 2006 Author Share Posted July 1, 2006 thast what i am wondering Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheres my rock Posted July 1, 2006 Author Share Posted July 1, 2006 thast what i am wondering Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShesaLikeableBiBear Posted July 1, 2006 Share Posted July 1, 2006 Caninecoach Am so very very sorry to hear about your Loch. I understand from a quick search on google that this is a congenital problem which can be seen in Bichons, Maltese and Yorkies, but I am not sure about shelites. Just after I read your post on the Rainbow Bridge I was with a shelite breeder who has been breeding for over 30 years and she had not heard the terminology before. I dont think it was vaccination related. We at safareeshelties send you all our love and Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tassie Posted July 1, 2006 Share Posted July 1, 2006 Oh dear - how sad to lose a pup. As far as I've heard, liver shunts are a congenital problem - sometimes correctable by surgery if discovered in time. Here are a couple of links which explain - liver shunt link 1 liver shunt link 2 I guess it's possible that the vaccination might have provided some extra stress which might have made the problem show up sooner, but from my reading, it couldn't have caused the shunt. Didn't read far enough to see if the tendency for shunts to develop is thought to be heritable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheres my rock Posted July 1, 2006 Author Share Posted July 1, 2006 i know of one other sheltie that has had a shunt but it was fixed with surgery unfortuantely with loch it was so sudden his body crashed before anything could be done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheres my rock Posted July 1, 2006 Author Share Posted July 1, 2006 ive read all the stuff on the net and it makes sense but he only showed signs in the last few days he was healthy before that we are having an autopsy to check into it further as im still concerned about other underlying things in case it was a toxin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tassie Posted July 1, 2006 Share Posted July 1, 2006 I think you're wise - it's bad enough to lose them, but worse if you don't really know why. Poor little pupster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheres my rock Posted July 1, 2006 Author Share Posted July 1, 2006 well we lost our whippet a year ago very suddenly too so im really scared for my other sheltie now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonniebank Posted July 1, 2006 Share Posted July 1, 2006 Hi caninecoach. On my way to bed but I will see what I have on liver shunt and post for you. I have had Shelties for many years and have never (nor have I known of) one of them with this problem. Gastric torsion due to bloat is prevalent in deep chested breeds but I haven't known of Shelties to have this. Will get back to you if I can find out anything. Sam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheres my rock Posted July 1, 2006 Author Share Posted July 1, 2006 yes its seems to b one of those tings its not a known thing but can happen and because the sypmtoms are so vague we didnt pick them up I had never nerad of it before late last year when i met a lady with a sheltie who had had it then when the vet said Loch had died from it its congeital no different to a heart defect these things happen. It took my husband ten years to decide to get another dog after he lost his girl to cancer now this has happened hes devastated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wisdomis4thoseseek Posted July 1, 2006 Share Posted July 1, 2006 (edited) yes its seems to b one of those tings its not a known thing but can happen and because the sypmtoms are so vague we didnt pick them upI had never nerad of it before late last year when i met a lady with a sheltie who had had it then when the vet said Loch had died from it its congeital no different to a heart defect these things happen. It took my husband ten years to decide to get another dog after he lost his girl to cancer now this has happened hes devastated So sorry for your loss...... I lost my first ever newfoundland due to a portiosystemic shunt, and it is EXTREAMLY rare in large-giant breeds. My girls shunt was actually in her liver therefor surgery was risky and unfortunatly before we knew what was actually wrong she had massive brain damage. She would be trying to bite you, while wagging her tail. I'm sure you will already be aware that the problem with liver shunts is because the liver is being By-passed it can't clear out the toxins from the food, there for the toxens are being put directly back into the blood stream. My girl went to the bridge agaed 11 months and for that whole time she was suffering, I knew nothing about the shunts and my vet (now ex vet) didn't even look because it is so rare in giant breed dogs. It will get easier in time, just remember all the good thing, I know that is easier said then done.... edited cause I can't spell Edited July 1, 2006 by samadii Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missymoo Posted July 1, 2006 Share Posted July 1, 2006 Sorry for your loss, your poor hubby, what a terrible thing for your family.. RIP little pup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheres my rock Posted July 1, 2006 Author Share Posted July 1, 2006 yes it came on suddenly over a few days our vet said his liver probabaly never functioned so the toxins would have built up quickly in his system it was really over night that the worst symptoms came through he was crying and biting as you described and would then crash then start again. Our vet is very god and there is no way he would have thought to check for it sooner as he was so young and really the signs were so mild no one noticed them until the end. Our vet says he wouldnt be surprisd if the liver is underdeveloped anyway so there would have been no way to help hi we will no more in the next few days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonniebank Posted July 2, 2006 Share Posted July 2, 2006 Hi Caninecoach, How are you and your husband coping? So sorry I was tired last night and misunderstood. I thought you were referring to gastric torsion. (Probably the nice bottle of red didn't help either!) I have a lot of info in my old text books. I'm retired now so I don't know how up to date they would be. Most of it is on portosystemic shunt (PSS). It can be hereditary or acquired but is more likely hereditary in a young pup, as acquired PSS is usually the result of progressive liver disease. Dogs suffering from cirrhosis, hepatitis or congestive heart failure can have increased pressure inside their livers. The extrahepatic shunt is outside the liver and the intrahepatic shunt is inside the liver. Typically, smaller dogs have extrahepatic shunts and larger dogs have intrahepatic shunts, (hence samadii's girl had an intrahepatic shunt). My books state breed predilections as Miniature Schnauzers and Yorkies. So far I can't find anything on PSS that specifically mentions Shelties but I'll keep looking for you. I'll also email a close friend of mine who has bred and exhibited Shelties for over 40 years to ask her if she has known of any cases. Have you spoken to Loch's breeder and/or the owner of his sire? If not, maybe best to wait until you know for sure. I think you are very brave to have an autopsy done on poor Loch. Not only will it give you closure but I thank Loch on behalf of all Shelties. If it is indeed congenital in Shelties, then knowing about it and increasing awareness in breeding programs, may save other puppies (and their owners) from going through what you are going through. If it saves one other puppie's life, then little Loch has left a legacy. When you get some answers I'll be happy to photocopy whatever I have and send it to you if it will help you get through. It's the not knowing or understanding that makes it even harder to grieve. Take care, Sam :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonniebank Posted July 2, 2006 Share Posted July 2, 2006 p.s. I'll also post on an international Sheltie list I belong to and a veterinary forum. The veterinary forum is for discussion of cases only and seeking personal advice is not allowed but I don't think they'll mind if I simply ask whether they have experienced liver shunts in Shelties. It's a USA forum and most of the members work in the critical care (emergency) field. I'll let you know if I hear anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wisdomis4thoseseek Posted July 2, 2006 Share Posted July 2, 2006 The extrahepatic shunt is outside the liver and the intrahepatic shunt is inside the liver.Typically, smaller dogs have extrahepatic shunts and larger dogs have intrahepatic shunts, (hence samadii's girl had an intrahepatic shunt). Yes you are quiet right my girld did have a intrahepatic shunt. Just to let you know caninecouch if it was indeed a intrahepatic shunt it is VERY costly, to have gemma's operation she had to go to sydney for the specialist and it was estimated at between $16,000 and $18,000 and it couldn't be guaranteed she would recover. After a few more tests we decided to send her to the bridge, because of the brain damage she would suffer no matter how much we spent on her. Again I give my deepest sympathy to you and your family, may time heal your broken hearts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheres my rock Posted July 2, 2006 Author Share Posted July 2, 2006 wow thanks bonnie bank that would be great i spoke briefly to the breeder yesterday she was upset and was going to talk to the vet so i will speak to her during the week. The bitch was having her last litter and the sire is older and i think that was his last liter to so they wont be bred from again anyway the breeder was going to fond aout about haveing the rest of the litter tested so thast god also i made des come to dog club today which was good for him lots of people telling about their experiences he felt much better and realises there wwas nothing he could have done he took connor off me to go play at the dam i think its important that he keeps up with doggy stuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonniebank Posted July 2, 2006 Share Posted July 2, 2006 i made des come to dog club today which was good fo i think its important that he keeps up with doggy stuff Definitely. May I say I love that photo with the sheep (nose to nose) on your posts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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