Food Intolerances & Elimination Diets – Advice Needed

[peigirl]

Hi everyone

Hoping you can help me out. After a few weeks of loose and watery stools, not being 'regular', gurgling tummy, me trying an elimination diet and a big vomit this morning we were at the vet's this evening (armed with our spew and poo - you DOLers taught me well :D ) and Rafael was diagnosed with Colitis. Will be continuing our elimination diet (but far more strict) to get to the bottom of this straight away. He's had the occasional mucous poo but never such a loose consistently and for this period of time. Have had no radical changes to diet of late - he's just turned 1 and had been a BARFer since 16 weeks. There were a couple of new treats I did try him on but stopped them over a week ago - symptoms have continued. He's now on few day course of Metrogyl to settle his belly which is currently a little tender. I might also add he is in perfect health otherwise - fantastic coat, skin, eyes, ears, teeth and gums.

I would like to get food allergy testing done. Can someone recommend who to see in Perth? I have been to Diana @ Wholistic Animal for homeopathics - has anyone used her for the testing she does? I'm also not to sure how allergy testing works - I presume they test to certain stimuli but is it ok if I bring my BARF vege mix in for testing too? A ball-park figure for $ I can expect to pay would be great aswell.

Thanks in advance

peigirl

Edited August 22, 2006 by peigirl

[Hazz]

I recently had blood taken and sent to the US for testing (against 100 allergens, as cause unknown) at the figure of $450 - and this is at special price with my vet.

You should be able to get it cheaper as you know what your looking at (ie food allergens only)

[peibe]

Sorry to hear that Raf is still unwell

Did the vet recommend a chicken and rice only diet aswell?

[peigirl]

Thanks Peibe. Raf is feeling a little sorry for himself, with less energy than normal, but otherwise ok. He is on a chicken diet for now. I was a bit hesitant to introduce rice - he doesnt normally have it and I dont want introduce something else new that could upset his belly again. Perhaps I'll try a little tonight and see how he goes. Poor love. I wish he could talk and tell me what doesnt agree with him.

[peibe]

It is hard sometimes, but my Shar Pei boy cannot have zuchini, squash, rhubbarb or watermelon, gives him bad gas, belly aches and the runs. Rhubbarb is the worst though

Took us a long time to find out what his problem was. We went back to feeding him chicken, then introduced rice, then slowely over months one vegetable at a time to work out which ones caused problems.

Goodluck

Also forgot lamb does not agree with him either

[bloss344]

Usually the way to work out food allergies is with a strict elimination diet. One or two novel foods are fed for 8 weeks, with not a bite of anything else. Then very gradually new foods and supplements are added in. The good news is once you have eliminated the offending food, usually with tummy problems symptoms go away pretty quickly.

Often dogs with tummy problems have food intolerances rather than actual allergies and this is why the elimination diet is used. My Bob is intolerant to beef, chicken, roo and needs an extremely low fat diet to keep his bowels under control. He also has an allergy to corn which causes ear infections.

[InspectorRex]

Has your Vet referred you on to an internal Medicine Specialist for possible endoscopy? That would be what I would want done as I lost my beautiful Rough Collie( Aust Champ) to Inflammatory Bowel Disease just on a year ago and the symptons are very much what you are describing here.

You have Murdoch Uni over there?

[peigirl]

Thanks so much for all the replies everyone, I really appreciate it.

Rafael was unusually flat on Tues morn after the Mon night visit to our vet but has improved steadily since then and is nearly back to his normal self personality/energy wise. Stools will take longer of course but its only been 2 days. I have made along list of everything in his diet veges, meat, bones and treats to help me get to the bottom of this. I am embarrassed to admit one of my prime suspects is now a new Eagle Pack kibble I bought back in June. Raf is a barfer but has been getting a ¼ cup of kibble in his kong everyday for the last 5 weeks when I’ve headed off to work. His symptoms have only been presenting for the last 3 weeks so I didn’t think the kibble might be the source of the problem. There has also been a couple of other new treats in the last 3 weeks which I stopped over 1.5 weeks ago that I thought were to blame – even when the symptoms continued a week past him last having those particular treats.

I never suspected the kibble seen as Raf really enjoyed tucking into it (he’s not a big fan of kibble) but now I think back I realise his system hasn’t had a break from it at all. Pork bones as well are also on my list. Unable to get lamb bones I wanted so I got pork for the last month or so. Hmmmmm I admit I really am suspicious of everything at the moment.

From what you fellow DOLers have told me my elimination of foods needs to be very strict over much greater periods of time. We only started yesterday so there is a long way to go.

My vet diagnosed Colitis from a food intolerance and instructed I do the elimination diet before proceeding with stool tests and referrals for allergy testing (this includes Murdoch Inspector Rex). He didn’t feel Raf’s symptoms were bad enough at present to proceed down that path and I’m inclined to agree without doing the elimination diet first. It was me wanting to get testing done to short cut the elimination diet and get Raf’s system back on track asap. Think I will have to work on my patience It’s going to be a long few months to work this out properly but I am very determined!

[bloss344]

My vet diagnosed Colitis from a food intolerance and instructed I do the elimination diet before proceeding with stool tests and referrals for allergy testing (this includes Murdoch Inspector Rex). He didn’t feel Raf’s symptoms were bad enough at present to proceed down that path and I’m inclined to agree without doing the elimination diet first. It was me wanting to get testing done to short cut the elimination diet and get Raf’s system back on track asap. Think I will have to work on my patience It’s going to be a long few months to work this out properly but I am very determined!

Unfortunately there is no quick and easy way when it comes to an elimination diet, however I can say that once you get it all sorted out it's well worth it. I can control Bob's IBD without medication, and I know what may bring on a flare. I feel it's very worthwhile to be proactive in regards to diet with these dogs.

Oh, has the vet tested for SIBO and other bacteria in the intestines?

Good luck.

[peigirl]

No Bloss he hasn't. Can you tell me what a SIBO test is pls?

[bilby]

Have you contacted Murdoch Uni Vet Hospital ?

After trailing poor Bouf to & from 2 different successive vets for 2 years to try & get his lameness sorted, I went to a third vet who immediately referred him to Murdoch where I saw a specialist and Bouf had his cruciate ligament surgery the next week.

He's been at home for 6 days now & we have another 11 weeks of post-op care to go, but I feel really confident of the outcome.

I have been so so impressed with all the staff there .... just wish I'd been referred much sooner. It's the difference between visiting a GP & seeing a specialist.

Best luck

[bloss344]

No Bloss he hasn't. Can you tell me what a SIBO test is pls?

Small Intestine Bacterial Overgrowth. I don't know much about it, except people on other lists I am on have tested for it when their dog had the poop symptoms. Untreated it can be the cause of IBD. There's other bacteria they can test for too like coccidiosis, and giardia.

[peigirl]

Would really appreciate some advice regarding elimination diets.

What would you consider to be an adequate period for trialing one food for an intolerance? Reason I ask is Rafael’s last seven meals have been straight chicken. He has also been on a course of Metrogyl 200mg twice daily (for 4 days) and 1gm on Protexin per day (for 2 days). His stools yesterday and today were the consistency of sticky gravy and dark brown/mustard colour. Would 7 chicken meals over 3.5 days still producing liquid stools indicate an intolerance to you?

Or is it possible the Protexin could be upsetting his stomach? I was advised to have Raf on a 2g twice daily dose – after the first meal (Friday night) he later vomited salvia that smelt like it. So I have cut the dose back to 1gm. He hasn’t vomitted again. Wondering if Protexin has upset any other tummies?

All advice/comments greatly appreciated. I’m not sure what to feed him from this point on. Should I continue chicken and cut Protexin or move onto another meat altogether?

[Rappie]

Food intolerances are tricky and frustrating to both diagnose and deal with. The protexin shouldn't be causing a problem, metronidazole can sometimes cause vomiting as a side effect so consider that as a possibility also - however the metronidazole will treat any potential giardia infections as well so it's a tricky situation.

Usually with elimination diets we try to choose one novel protein source and one, so that's one that a dog has previously never been exposed to (usually things like turkey, kangaroo or fish) either in it's fresh form or as part of one of the commercial hypoallergenic diets (Hills z/d, Euk F/P, RC Hypoallergenic etc). Animals tend to develop intolerances to proteins that they have exposed to on a regular basis - so the regular culprits are beef, lamb and chicken in addition to a variety of vegies, supplements and additives. If your dog has been exposed to chicken regularly then I would speak to your vet and try to get hold of some protein that he would have never eaten - otherwise you may not get a true picture.

Regardless of this, it will take time for any positive changes to be seen - that is why a diet trial takes at least 6-8 weeks. While signs of colitis are being seen it means that the intestinal lining is still not normal - it is inflamed, all the cells are swollen and this leads to the mucosa being "leaky". The gaps between cells let more material through than normal, so the proteins that the dog is intolerant to, as well as new proteins that wouldn't normally be able to fit - we need to try to get the intestinal lining back to as "normal" as possible before we start challenging it (by returning possible suspect proteins back into the diet).

[peigirl]

Thanks so much Rappie

Rafael has been on a raw diet for the last 8 months. I would prefer to try a fresh protein source as opposed to kibble. He has never had turkey before so I will persevere and try our luck with that. Patience is well and truely a virtue when it comes to elimination diets

[bloss344]

What Rappie said is so spot on. The only thing I'd like to add cos my Bob has the sensitive tummy from hell, is that perhaps the fat content in the chicken is aggravating the colitis. Bob can't tolerate much fat at all. I need to boil his meat, drain it and then rinse it again with hot water to remove even more fat. I know it seems extreme and perhaps I am a bit anal when it comes to this dog but it works for us. I tried him on a Fish Oil capsule recently and that was dynamite One thing that many owners of dog's with IBD/colitis find is these dogs often just can't tolerate fat in normal quantaties.

I'm not saying it's not the chicken protein causing the problem, it probably is as chicken is such a common protein source but no matter what protein source you choose you may have to look at the fat content of Rafael's diet as well. The turkey breast is lower fat than the hindquater for instance, and you would probably want to remove the skin.

[peigirl]

Thanks Bloss I appreciate that, I will watch the fat too. Hopefully my tiny local supermarket has turkey today. Unfortunately WA is yet to discover a little concept called 'Sunday trading'

Right now wishing I hadnt spent $40 on chicken yesterday. Got another $20 of other meats in the freezer too. What am I going to do with it? Dunno, I'm a vegetarian! Ah well. For now I suppose Raf and I will both just have to stare at it wistfully

[fido666]

Hi there Piegirl,

My Collie boy Duncan (the dog in my avatar) was diagnosed with IBD a while ago after an endoscopy performed under anasthetic by a specialist. We've been having ongoing problems with him for most of his 2 years, it's been impossible to keep weight on him. Every time he got the runs he was put on the classic "bland diet" of boiled skinless chicken and rice. Rice is added as a binding agent I believe. Since the diagnosis we have worked out that every time we give him chicken it sets him off again, obviously it is this protein source he's intolerant to. Without realising it we were making his condition worse not better .

We have since had him on a beef and veg diet with rice or pasta, he also has a little kibble added to this. Initially we gave him Hills z/d Ultra as his kibble source, interestingly it contains chicken but the proteins are hydrolised which neutralises the nasties. More recently, the nice folks at Eagle Pack gave me some samples of their Holistic Select range to try, the "Duck and Oatmeal" as well as the "Anchovy, Sardine & Salmon Meal w/Oatmeal" formulas. We've had no reaction to the duck & oatmeal one, stools are firm and healthy and he's continuing to gain condition on his new diet. They recommended the fish one as the most hypo allergenic but as there are 3 novel proteins in that one we decided the duck based one was safer.

Hope you work out what's going on with your Pei, I'm so relieved now we know what's wrong with our boy. He's tiny for his age, not getting to retain the nutrients from his food can't have helped.

Regards,

Corine

[CavsRcute]

I would agree with Fido regarding the chicken. I have had 2 Cavaliers. With the first one, she was a rescue and had yellow,foamy, mucoucy poos which didn't improve when on chicken and rice so she went onto lamb and pumpkin and rice, with protexin added and she was fine. I also used physillium husks(like metamucil but cheaper) and this was also a help.

My puppy also developed the same sensitivity and she is on a raw lamb and vege mix, with lamb necks and Eagle Pack Lamb and Oatmeal dry food. Interestingly, she can tolerate turkey necks smashed into pieces. Occassionally she will get into something she's not supposed and then I give her a slippery elm tablet ans is as good as gold.

Good luck....it's a very frustrating process to get it all sorted

[peibe]

I hope that you get to the bottom of this but I would like to add something about Pei

Shar Pei do not tolerate turkey raw. I have had far too many dogs to count through here and they all suffer the runs from Turkey, necks or mince. The only way you can give it to them is cooked

He also will not handle too much Lamb as it is too fatty

Hard to get to the bottom of something when you have the Pei problem of most being red meat intolerant

I do hope Raf feels better soon and that you find out what is the matter