whatevah Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 (edited) Roll Over Uses - Handy at the vets, when you need to look at the dogs tummy, great show off trick, Equipment - food Method - Dog is taught off lead in distraction free area. Reason for off lead, if frees up both hands, and trick looks better off lead, saves you having to phase out the lead later. Dog is in drop position. (lying down) Gets some food and slowly move food from the dogs nose, towards his hips, his head should start following his nose, and his body should follow. You need to be on your hands and knees to do this. Once his head is near his hips, move your hand towards the ground and lure him into a full roll. Once he has done this a couple of times, add the word, "roll over". The dog might get a bit confused and only go part of the way. Just keep practicing and keep the sessions short. Keep it happy and fun. Gradually phase out the food reward, so the dog only gets the reward once he has completed the roll. ADVANCED Try multiple rolls, rolls in either direction. You can add the word "bang" and give the hand signal with thumb and fore finger pointing at him. If you have two dogs, see if you can get them both rolling in the same direction. You can also have the dog in a drop at your side, and get the dog to roll over underneath you, you have to jump so the dog has room to roll over looks quite flashy. PITFALLS I got a bit carried away with this trick with one of my dogs. Everytime I said, drop the dog anticipated and rolled over every time. So when the dog has the idea, you might just do some simple drops with out the roll over. DROP If your dog does not know drop, might be handy to teach this first. Just get down on hands and knees and slowly lure the dog down with the food and say drop. Dog can be either in sit or stand position. Then phase out the food. Edited June 11, 2006 by DunnyBrush Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carebear Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 this one sounds like fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clicking Mad Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 Yeh I have done this with mine.. Pre-clicker again... and too impatient again teaching them "rollover" and "rollback" at the same time.. My Jamie girl (the smart one) did rollover and rollback but then would anticipate it and roll the wrong way.. and then when I started clicking I just stuck with the rollover and let the rollback wait a while... I've caught up now and she will do both directions.. and recently I got her to rollover and wait... I was so surprised when she stopped midroll (on her back) and then I said rollback and she rolled the other way... she really is smarter than I give her credit for sometimes... shame on me I also had to change the hand signal in the middle of all this as my little finger movement kept getting confused with the little finger movement of the "pirouette" so at the moment I am using a full exaggerated arm movement to avoid confusion. Chester was doing both as well... pre clicker... again with the clicker decided to concentrate on the one direction rollover... and changing the hand signal... He was also anticipating the rollover with a down so have changed it up a lot... down stay... down sit down sit (puppy push-ups)... and down stay and then wait for it wait for it okay roll over roll over roll over.. Now he does multiple rollovers in quick succession and it's so cute he goes in a circle as well... like he'll start in front of me and rollover and rollover and I'll have turned about 45 or 90 degrees by the time he's done... I remember once early on when I wasn't going for the multiple rollovers and I was suddenly getting him to rollover and then sit... the look on his face was priceless... it was obvious he got the fact that he had to wait for the next cue or no reward. And who said dalmatians were dumb....? Just to see how they would go... experiment really.. I decided to see if I could get Jamie and Chester (I don't like doing this with Texas too much... I'm not sure that it is very good for him.. he looks so awkward) to do a rollover next to each other... it took a great deal of patience .. probably more than I have ... but well there is hope lets just say.. There was waaayy too much distraction going on... "no Texas go away... Jamie down... Chester come here... no Texas go away... Jamie down... Chester down.... oh Texas go away"... sorta thing happening ... which really wasn't working in my favour or theirs. I think they did it eventually but I won't try it again in those circumstances at least until I'm sure they know what to expect. Jamie didn't like being rolled over onto by Chester either so I had to make sure she was on the other side... that is she was rolling on him rather than him rolling onto her? Anyway... great fun...!!! Sam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whatevah Posted March 27, 2004 Author Share Posted March 27, 2004 Sam, you seem to be having great fun. Thanx for sharing, gives us other ideas as well. Forgot to add, that for those first starting with this trick, watch which way your dogs are hips are, it is easier to get them to roll the opposite way to where their legs are lying. If legs rear legs are lying to the left get the dog to roll to the right. Teaching two dogs at once is a big challenge, that why I put it under advance. I have even tried getting one dog to do a stand stay while I call the other dog underneath. Have also had one dog in a drop and called other dog to jump over the dog in a drop. Both dogs have to be really steady, and know there stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clicking Mad Posted April 2, 2004 Share Posted April 2, 2004 Okay, Jamie seems a little confused now since I asked for a wait in the middle of the rollover to do a rollback. I cued the "rollover" and expecting her to do it I clicked too early and she stopped half way and rolled back and got up. Wasn't happy, because of course since I clicked she got the reward. It has taken a number of goes to get her to go all the way over now, and she is quite slow and doesn't do multiple rollovers either? How annoying and here I was thinking how good she was doing for stopping half way. You'd think I'd know by now how well dogs remember the last thing they did in the same circumstances that go so highly rewarded. And you'd think I'd learnt by now that clicking too early is almost as bad as clicking too late. Any ideas on how to get her back to where she was? Sam. When your dog does well s/he deserves the accolades, when your dog doesn't do well you only have yourself to blame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whatevah Posted April 2, 2004 Author Share Posted April 2, 2004 I would go back to basic. Go back to step 1, start teaching roll over like she has not learnt it before. I keep working on that, for maybe a week, until she is doing rollover really well, before I went back to the advanced moves. The advanced moves are for a dog who has a really good grasp on roll over for quite some time. I would teach her do an entire roll over first. If you want to do a roll over the other direction, I would wait until she has done a full roll over and not stop in the middle. Once she has a grasp on roll over, get her to do a roll over before she is fed. Get her to do a roll over before she gets her ball, (if she likes ball) before she goes for a walk. This is known as the premack principle. The dog has to do a behaviour before it gets to do what it wants to do. I use this on my flatcoat retriever who is not food motivated. He has to do a trick before he gets his retrieve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayreovi Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 Hi I am trying to teach Nova to roll at the moment and high 5 he got that one but he is having trouble with the roll he will roll over if i direct my hand over his back but i have no idea when to click to get best results when he gets up after or during? Cant wait to see more tricks i am having alot of fun teaching him and seeing as it is school holidays i have heaps of time too ;) thanks natasha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whatevah Posted April 7, 2004 Author Share Posted April 7, 2004 You click after he has done the roll. Click ends the behaviour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snobbybobby Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 You click after he has done the roll. Click ends the behaviour. Hi Bigbum, Can I query your statement. As far as I can interpret the use of the clicker, the click MARKS precisely the behaviour you want, ie, the rolling motion! In order to do a complete behaviour it is 'shaped' gradually using the clicker. For example, I taught my dog to play 'peek-a-boo'. I shaped her, gradually, going around with a target stick, then, the moment she put her head between my ankles, I clicked. I got a "photograph" to plant in the dog's mind of what I wanted. Sure, the click does 'end' the behaviour but, if you click AFTER the rollover, you are 'marking' the dog lying on his/her side. A lot of people, IMHO, misuse the clicker and then wonder why it doesn't work! ;) Hope this helps. Henrynchlo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayreovi Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 OK that makes sense he is a very smart dog so he will pick it up quickly thanks natasha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clicking Mad Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 Bigbum, Thanks for your tips... Jamie has been doing the rollover for over a year. But ... Since acquiring the clicker (Dec 2003) I have been making a few changes, improvements on certain old behaviours that they have been doing ok. When I asked for a "wait" in the middle of the rollover, I expected she would still finish the rollover and wait in the down, instead I was surprised to find a wait before she had finished the rollover, not at all unhappy about it though, I thought it was cool. But then when I went to ask for a full rollover she had decided to remember the last big reward for not going all the way over and she would roll over all over the place almost begging on her back for a reward. As far as the premack principle goes - (it's funny how you hear things then all of a sudden it's everywhere) I have been asking for a lot of different tricks at a bunch of different times, for about a month now. I used to just ask for a single pirouette before dinner time for example, now I go through a whole series of tricks. Since the problem with the roll over I have been getting Jamie to rollover before the bowl goes down, she has returned to her previous skill level now. That worked great. I have also been asking for a wave before they get to come inside with me, another trick before they get a run with the ball. NILIF. tollersowned: as far as the when to click goes. If your dog is giving the behaviour, I would click immediately after the behaviour as bigbum said the click ends the behaviour... However, if your dog is not giving the behaviour in full, clicking before he/she has finished would probably work okay, in that sense you will be rewarding increments in the right direction - shaping. I have been toying with this a little over the past month or so.. I have found that, if I expect my dog to finish a behaviour and I click too early it gets cut off and they don't finish what they would have. (1pt for click ends behaviour). If your dog is quick you may get away with an early click or two. With the rollover, if you click beyond the point of no return, the only way the dog can get the reward is if it finishes the behaviour to get up on his/her feet and to you for the reward. Like when you click the jump. When clicking a jump in the early learning stage, you are doing this. You click when they have two feet on one side and two feet on the other side of the jump, the dog is going to keep going over the jump, he has passed the point of no return, therefore the click is in the middle of the behaviour rather than the end. (1pt for click the "photograph"). Has this cleared it up, or muddied the water? Sam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayreovi Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 Hi thanks for the help I would love to teach nova to stop half way through then roll back the other way hehe It did clear things up i will go and try it tomorrow hes asleep now ;) finally! Will let you know how i went thanks again natasha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
!Kristen! Posted April 8, 2004 Share Posted April 8, 2004 this is great :rolleyes: cant wait to see more trix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whatevah Posted April 8, 2004 Author Share Posted April 8, 2004 (edited) I don't mind you quering me, thats fine, we are all hear to learn and I am still learning. Thats why I am only teaching tricks that I have taught my own dogs, and telling the way that I taught them. I taught my dog food luring, and I only clicked him when he finished the roll over and was back up on his feet. I think if I had of clicked him in the middle of the roll, he would then stop and not do a complete roll. But that is my dog, other dogs may be different. But if you were doing pure shaping then you would click for small increments and work up to the complete roll over. I have also used the clicker, to reward for two behaviours. The dog has to close two drawers before he gets the click, etc. I think if you can use the clicker and can get the dog to do the behaviour then you must be doing it right. Edited April 8, 2004 by bigbum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clicking Mad Posted May 1, 2004 Share Posted May 1, 2004 This is Chester doing the rollover in a series of 5 photos Starts in a down Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clicking Mad Posted May 1, 2004 Share Posted May 1, 2004 turn of the head Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clicking Mad Posted May 1, 2004 Share Posted May 1, 2004 my big obvious hand signal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clicking Mad Posted May 1, 2004 Share Posted May 1, 2004 splayed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clicking Mad Posted May 1, 2004 Share Posted May 1, 2004 and back in the down for 1/2 a sec before running up to retrieve his yummy reward Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whatevah Posted May 23, 2004 Author Share Posted May 23, 2004 (edited) Here is Moses doing the roll over. He is just starting to get into position rather quickly. I experimented with just saying roll over first without the drop. I think he actually tried to start doing it without the drop, so a rollover from stand position. Edited May 23, 2004 by bigbum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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