huski

LOL! That's our local park. I am often down at Shaw oval training one of the poochies. I was exceptionally hung over yesterday, so we just did some training indoors instead - can't believe we missed you!

Dogs can learn to get drive satisfaction through particular objects/things. This can depend on how we develop their drive and what they learn to get drive satisfaction from. My Siberian is really prey driven (in fact he caught and killed a bat that came into our yard last night) and he goes nuts for squeaky toys or any toy I throw for him but he will not play tug with me. This is because I taught him inadvertently that the best way to get drive satisfaction is to wait for me to throw an object for him. If I had developed his 'tug' drive from puppy hood instead of teaching him manners (he has always been raised not to grab anything from our hands) then I am sure he would be into tugging. Is chasing other dogs the only time he likes to chase things? Or would he be likely to chase and grab/kill a small animal?

Hmmm not sure Ptolomy! Could be?? She has become REALLY keen on the dumbell this past week but that was before we started playing around with the SD stuff. She really doesn't like the feel of the metal in her mouth and won't take it with the same gusto as she will the dumbell when I hand it to her. She is a lot more excited by the dumbell than she is the metal article, but it is probably just because we've been working on it longer and she really gets what it is all about. By the end of the training session yesterday she was becoming a lot more confident with the metal article, so hopefully her enthusiasm for it will grow with time. ETA: Will be interesting to see how she goes with the wood/leather articles!

Of course, my dog has me well trained, he knows all he has to do is bring the toy back to me to get me to throw it for him. Sometimes he'll even intentionally knock it in a place he can't reach it so I come out and 'rescue' it for him

Ok so second SD training session last night and Daisy will now pick up the metal article if I offer it to her and will pick it up off the ground (ah, it's the small things!) and by the end of the training session she was bringing it back to me too. Will progress with this until she is confidently bringing it back to me and then will go from there. She is also progressing really nicely with her formal retrieve and is starting to do nice fronts with the dumbell Might do a video of it at training this week if we can continue to pull it together.

He's got so much potential!

Herding is modified prey drive rather than something separate. And you know that you going to fetch the item and then throwing it again is simply the dog training you to do it's bidding, right? It's not that the dog is in capable or thinks it "beneath her" to do it. I agree, sounds like she has you well trained GayleK

A dog that likes to retrieve things can be doing so because they are prey driven i.e. my Siberian loves me throwing toys for him and brings them back every time so I can throw them again. He's definitely not a retrieving breed but he is prey driven and gets a lot of satisfaction from chasing and grabbing a fast moving object! Like it was mentioned in this thread in the training forum, what is driving the behaviour is usually prey drive - the dog enjoys chasing after the 'prey' and brings it back to you so they can chase it again. Although like Staranais pointed out, if the dog is just picking things up and bringing them to you it could be soliciting attention not working in prey drive.

Damn now I'm curious, I missed the fun I've used the report button in the past, like the time the forum was spammed with porn.

Big congrats to Rivsky, DSO and Xena! Hope we get to see all your rounds on video

Our dogs have their main meal when I get up in the mornings. It's usually one of the first things I do. If it's the weekend and I sleep in really late, Daisy will get antsy and will try and wake me up by putting her nose or paw on my face On a week day, she always comes into my bed about half an hour before my alarm goes off to wait for me to get up. She knows the sound of my alarm going off and when she can see me waking up she gets excited So there's no way I could forget to feed her in the morning, although when we start trialling I will fast her for 24 hours.

If people are crossing the line with nastiness or personal attacks, they will get a warning if the post is reported and they are violation of the forum rules. With a forum this large people will always have differing opinions, if someone has crossed the line report them - pretty simple.

And then you came to your senses?? ETA: Ness just what does a beagle woman look like??

I sent out an SOS to the guru a couple of days ago - saying things were going pearshaped in training - and I needed a lesson (it always happens just before I go away ) Anyway to cut a long story short - the guru suggested next time choosing a breed that wasn't so smart, or if I must stick with this breed to choose the dumb one in the litter - as smartness brings problems all of their own Great now she tells me :p Come on Ptolomy, next time mix it up and get a Beagle... I guarantee it will be different to the Tollers

I think it's important to remember that when using positive reinforcement (and we all use it, at least I hope we do!) positive should never mean permissive. A bad trainer is a bad trainer regardless of the method they use - you can get bad 'purely positive' trainers and bad correction based trainers. It should be about balance IMO

Ok so I bought out the first metal article tonight. I quickly realised getting her just to pick it up will prove challenging It took 15 minutes just to get her to hold it if I presented it to her and to get her trying to pick it up off the ground. We have polished wooden floors and I think that makes it tricky for her to pick it up as the metal article is so much lower to the ground than her dumbell and it tends to slip on the floor. But, after fifteen minutes she got I wanted her to pick it up and she was really trying hard to get it up off the ground Ah well at least we've started and are giving it a go! She is SO keen on her dumbell now. As soon as she spots it in the box I keep the dog gear she takes it out and presents it to me with a perfect hold At training last night I had it on the ground and she kept going over to it, picking it up and presenting it to me She really has it worked out which is great! She knows exactly what it is all about (I hold this and show mum and get a nom ). She really enjoys learning new things and you can see she gets a bit frustrated but that makes her more and more keen and as soon as she 'gets it' she gets so excited and even more enthusiastic And Ptolomy what you said earlier about them enjoying learning new and more difficult things as it makes them more enthusiastic about doing the "boring" stuff they already know is so true! Daisy gave me very enthusiastic and drivey heel work in between dumbell/article training tonight!

Just had to address this bit, I don't recall anyone saying that mistreatment or lack of socialisation and training won't affect the dog, it's just that it's reaction will not necessarily be agressive, it might react submissively or with anxiety in certain situations but it wont necessarily become agression. This is what genetics and selective breeding is about, it's not just about deciding whether a dog will react to a certain situation it's about determining (and predicting) how the dog will react to a certain situation. A dog bred to herd sheep upon seeing sheep for the first time can find itself acting out herding behaviours, it may not know what it is doing or where it is herding them but it is reacting to the sheep in a way which it has been genetically predisposed to react. That your dog's ancestors never displayed the fear agression that yours does may simply be due to the lack of the appropriate triggers, which is where environment comes in. However if your dog had a different genetic makeup it's possible his reaction to those same triggers may have been entirely different, perhaps instead of agression you might see him showing excessive obesiance to other dogs, perhaps he might run from other dogs, or he might display a combination of behaviours, all of these are reactions the nature of which is determined by the genetic predisposition of the animal. I'm not arguing that genetics makes no impact, I have clearly said I believe it does. I just believe that environment also play an important role. But we see aggression and other behaviourial problems in a RANGE of breeds, that is all I meant when I said that it can occur in just about any breed. Sure some breeds are more likely to act in certain ways but that doesn't mean we don't ever see that behaviour in other breeds, even if it's relatively uncommon. I don't disagree with you, I just hate to think that we are removing any responsibility the owner has to raise and train their dog appropriately by saying all bad behaviour is purely genetic. Greytmate I think I have spent enough time around you to know all of the above, that is why I used the examples I did. Dogs with behaviourial problems are out there in relatively large numbers, otherwise we wouldn't have the number of dog trainers we do out there working with these dogs everyday. And to think I thought we were on relatively friendly terms ;) I am not trying to tell you how to suck eggs, I am well aware of your experience and I respect that and your opinion. I am just really passionate about people taking responsibility for their dog by raising it, socialising it and training it properly and I hate to see dogs suffer because their owners become complacent or blame the dog soley for the problems they are having (and yes it can be the dog’s temperament or whatever but the issues can almost always still be managed in the right environment). It’s not unlike people who tell me their Siberian will always pull on the leash because it was bred to pull or people who tell me they will never get their beagle’s nose off the ground. There's no reason it can't be done. Obviously I am coming at this from the wrong angle because it seems I am not making myself clear, all I have been trying to say is that we should never discount the importance of training and socialisation. If a dog is predisposed to xyz behaviour that makes how you train and socialise it even more important. If you can raise and train a dog who is predisposed to xyz behaviours to prevent it from being a problem, then I can't see how anyone can argue that environment is not a crucial factor when it comes to our dogs behaviour.

I agree, but dogs with weak nerves (for eg) can often improve hugely with the right training to assist them to become more confident and learn what to do when they are in a stressful situation. Lack of socialisation can also impact hugely on dogs already predisposed to weak nerves.

The type of aggression certainly is relevant, because that determines how you train and manage the problem and gives you insight into what is driving the behaviour. What is the behaviour I descibe that isn't unusual for Sibes? COULD is the key word there. Any breed of dog does not mean all dogs, but that developing behaviourial problems after bad experiences is not something that can purely be restricted to a certain breed of dog. And yet we have posters in this thread telling people that you can mistreat their chosen breed, not socialise or train it and it won't affect the dog in any way. How does saying that not play down the importance of socialisation and training? Go down to your local dog park. Or obedience club. Or chat to a local trainer... they will all confirm that there are many people out there who through a lack of or inappropriate training, create problems with their dogs.

Ok, just to clarify because I think I am probably not being very clear. I think that it's more complex than the majority of aggressive dogs just being born that way. I think the dog's drive, nerves, temperament all play a role in how they respond to environmental stimuli. A dog with bad nerves could be more likely to become fear aggressive if influenced that way by it's environment i.e. a nervy dog who has bad experiences with other dogs could be more inclined to become FA than a confident dog with a strong nerve. I am not doubting the importance of genetics or temperament BUT I don't think a dog with weak nerves is born fear aggressive. For dogs like that, how they are raised and trained has a massive importance on their ability to handle various situations.

:laugh: Interesting.. you don't seem to think that about dogs who have aggressive genetic backgrounds. No, I think that we can't blame the majority of aggression purely on genetics. I have already said I am well aware some breeds have more tendancy towards aggression than others. Then what is your point about him acting like a husky? Fear aggression is not a trait that commonly presents in the breed, and having met quite a few dogs from his lines including both his parents, it's not present in the dogs I've met either. I didn't say ALL dogs who have that experience (and he was attacked on numerous occasions, not just once - had it been just once he might have been ok) but that it is hardly an uncommon problem. Dogs that have negative experiences in their fear stages can be affected by those experiences for life. My point is that he wasn't born aggressive, he became aggressive due to several negative experiences. Had he not had those experiences, he would not be aggressive. No, you said it's less important. I would never class training and socialisation of ANY dog as unimportant. My dog did not have a single negative experience, he was attacked on several occasions. What facts? All I am saying is that environmental factors are hugely important. How we raise, socialise and train our dogs is hugely important. I am not discounting the importance of genetic factors but I simply cannot agree that the majority of aggression is purely about genetics. Often it is about a combination of factors, not just environment and not just genetics. Why? You said yourself that certain breeds are just not going to require much if any socialisation or training. Several posters in this thread have named breeds that just will not display aggression and could be raised and treated like shit and will still grow up to be happy, well adjusted dogs because that's the breed. How on earth does laying the responsibility purely on genetics not remove any responsibilty we have to train and socialise our dogs appropriately? How does that not minimize the importance and responsibility we have as owners to treat our dogs properly and train them? You've never met people in real life whose lack of leadership/training/etc is causing problems with their dogs? If these issues can be completely resolved with the right training, does that still mean the problems were genetic?

I never said environment was strictly more important than genetics. I just struggle to see how genetics can be responsible for the majority of behaviourial problems we see in our dogs. It removes any responsibility that we have to raise well adjusted dogs or ensure that we train and raise them properly. Are you honestly saying you haven't met countless owners whose lack of training negatively affect their dogs behaviour?

That is exactly what some posters are saying; Oh yes, great! So we can edit peoples posts so that it misinterprets the whole meaning, wonderful! Actually, Huski "exactly" what i said was this: Which is, interestingly enough, very similar to what you went on to say. Only you feel that training plays the bigger part, and i feel that genetics does. I thought when you said mostly that you meant most dogs who show aggression, not that most of the aggression in a dog is genetic but some might be environmental. I haven't trained the instinct of scenting OUT of my dog, that would be impossible. What I did was harness that drive and use it in another way. I actually worked to make the drive stronger. You could never train a scent hound out of scenting. I think it would have been a lot easier had I started out with the right program from day one. I will let you know when I get my next beagle Are you saying that Siberians are genetically programmed to be fear aggressive? I am 110% confident that my dog would not be DA had he not learned through experience that other dogs were scary and dangerous. I disagree that pugs or whippets do not require socialisation or training, or that it is less important with certain breeds. ALL breeds need training and socialisation. ANY breed or dog could develop fear aggression if it has a negative experience during it's critical development phase. I have seen my fair share of timid snappy whippets. I agree it has nothing to do with genetic aggression, I also don't think it is an uncommon problem. Sorry to hear that AM, even though it is the right thing to do it must still feel disheartening

I don't think it is hypocritical to place an importance on raising, socialising and training our dogs so they do not develop any behaviourial problems (not just aggression). I have lost count of the number of dogs I have met whose owners bought them because 'x' breed is a great family dog yet the dog has xyz behaviourial problems - not because of it's breed or genetics but simply because the owners have failed to raise and train it appropriately. It is vital to choose a breed that is suitable for your lifestyle, and to go to a good breeder to ensure you are getting the best chance you can to have a healthy dog with a good stable temperament but very few dogs will automatically grow into a perfect, well adjusted adult if we don't raise and train them accordingly. Whilst I am a huge advocate for the purebred dog, we do not want owners to become complacent about properly raising and training their dog because it's 'x' breed and should just automatically be a well behaved dog.

That is exactly what some posters are saying; I totally agree that genetics is also integral and very important, like I have said several times, that is why I buy purebred dogs. But I do not feel that genetics is solely responsible for the majority of aggression we see in dogs. I do not think you can ever erase natural instinct, but I do think you can harness it and use it to your advantage.