huski

Haha I'm glad I'm not the only naughty one who stayed up late to "gang up" on you Bindii Maybe you're part of my clique??

No looking at one in May but will see how we go. I need to fix my handling skills first My nerves are terrible

Wow she looks great Dyzney congrats on the weight loss too!!

You're not mean RS! I keep the most high value toys away from the dogs unless we are training. Especially squeaky ones, our neighbours did not appreciate the first time I left Micha home alone with a cuz toy

I am feeling a bit bummed tonight, I am too sick to go to training and won't be able to go to the extra session on Wednesday either due to work stuff Boo. I am too sick to walk the dogs or go to the park too. Training at home is just not the same! I wish I had my articles already

The people in the OP who are using their dog's leash to carry their shoes on. I guess they thought hanging the thongs on the end of the leash was fine, I wonder if it was pointed out to them whether they would be like "Oh yeah, hm, maybe that is annoying to the dogs!" people need things pointed out sometimes And had I seen them I probably would have pointed it out (in a friendly manner of course :D) but I just don't think the "at least they are walking their dog" argument makes doing the wrong thing permissible.

The people in the OP who are using their dog's leash to carry their shoes on. Or, to use another example, the people I've seen training their dogs who are wearing head collars and yanking down on them to force the dog into position It makes me sick, the saddest thing is, is that they are training to do obedience which should be about the dog wanting to work for you not being forced to. Or a number of other examples I can give where I've seen people misusing a tool (not just head collars) - sure you could say "at least they are out training their dog!" but that doesn't make misusing a tool and mistreating their dog ok.

you know what, if she is scared then so be it... You cant tell me that when you punish your dog in which ever way (smacks, raised voice, low voice) that the dog doesnt react in some way.. If the dogs puts its tail in between its legs, drops to the ground sooks, then guess what the dog is scared of you aswell so it puts you in the same boat... Just to clarify - I wasn't asking that question to have a go - I was asking to get a clearer picture of what your dog was doing and why seeing as you would know better than I would. I wouldn't ever smack my dogs, but I have no problems with punishments or corrections. When I punish or correct my dogs I do it to interrupt a behaviour, so the goal is to get them to stop what they are doing - I can't tell you the last time I corrected them and had them cower or put their tails between their legs or drop to the ground and sook but what response you get could depend on a number of factors like the level of punishment you use etc. Sometimes too I find that giving my dogs a known command (like here or down etc) works better than giving them a vocal correction like ah ah - i.e. the other night Daisy was flying out the front door as someone opened it to eat the cat's food which was on the other side. I could have gone "AH AH" but instead I called out 'here!' and she pelted around and came running to me instead. I don't think ah ah would have worked in that instance because her food drive is so strong, 'here' worked instantly because I've conditioned her to respond to it in food drive. But that is getting off topic

You are the one who came onto this thread and targeted me specifically - you quite clearly have a problem with me :D PMSL... hilarious. Why even bother coming onto DOL when it's so disheartening? Why get so upset if you don't care? Would love to know who the clear 'leaders' and 'followers' are, seeing as you have targeted myself and Longcoat in this thread who is a) a newbie and b) someone I can barely remember even posting in the same thread as before! You need to get over yourself - there are many long term DOLers on this forum who I have had disagreements with and then agreed with them in other topics. I couldn't care less who is posting, sometimes I don't even register who I am responding to. If I belong to a clique, I would sure like to know who is in it, it appears I have been missing out And I don't care how you choose to backtrack over your "hiding behind the computer" comment because any one of the many DOLers I have met will tell you I am exactly the same IRL as I am on the forum. I see you are in QLD, how about you come along to a DOL meet or an obedience trial or any other dog related event and see for yourself. I never said that head collars equate to animal abuse or implied any such thing... ANY tool can be abused, from head collars to a leash to a flat collar etc - that is about the person using it. I don't like head collars for a range of reasons that have been discussed in this thread but just because I don't like them does not mean that I think anyone who is using one is abusing their dog.

Oh please - any time more than one person disagrees with a post it's suddenly a pack? Seeing as we can't see your dog, why do you think she runs away and avoids you when she knows you are going to smack her?

Ok, then when she avoids you or runs away when she "knows" you are going to smack her, what do you think is driving that behaviour?

Forget I said anything... i dont come on here to be attacked.... What is good for your breed or dog may not be good for me and my dog. Everyone does things differently. If you knew my dogs temprement you would think her attitude and body language is funny aswell. I would never hurt any animal deliberatly. My dogs are soo loved and spoilt...I shouldnt have to defend myself on her. We are all dog lovers and thats all that should matter Sorry I said anything.... No one is attacking you, just trying to understand why you would think it was funny if you dog was avoiding or running away from you when she knows you are going to smack her. I can't ever imagine thinking it was funny my dog was scared of me, but each to their own

Thanks GSD, that's exactly what I'm after

Thanks Shelley! Do you know what the date of the next club meeting is?

My thoughts exactly ;) I see a difference between an appeasement gesture and a dog who is looking to you in confidence during heelwork. I too am wondering why it's funny? How is your dog being afraid of you even mildly amusing? Agreed :D That's what I do, or I hold the treat in my hand away from my body and reward the dog for looking to me for direction (not unlike the basic principle of TOT). But you said when you get close enough to her to smack her, she drops her bum and runs away or avoids you as soon as she 'senses' something is up - why would she run away or avoid you if she wasn't scared?

Totally agree with the above PF... well said

I hardly think this thread is a pissing contest - just a discussion. Yeah it's great they have their dogs out - but that doesn't make misusing a tool in a way that can injure or hurt their dogs ok.

Bindii - yes I feel no tool should be used as a crutch and should only be used appropriately with a good training program. I do however have a dislike for head collars for various reasons which means I would never use one myself, and would probably never recommend them. You can have a read of the Suzanne Clothier article I posted earlier if you want to get a good idea of what I dislike about them. That however does not change the fact that they work well for some dogs and owners and I have no problem if it's being used properly and is working for them. I don't like to see anyone putting a bandaid on a training problem which is what a head collar becomes if you use it forever with no goal to stop. That can go for any training tool but is something I see happen a lot with head collars.

I was using Micha as an example of how it can be different for different dogs and how I would use two tools differently, as I have said several times, there are some dogs for whom head collars work Please show me anywhere that I have called head collars cruel?? All I have said about head collar is that they wouldn't work if they didn't cause some level of discomfort just like many other training tools. My issue with head collars isn't about it being an aversive tool. I have no issues with prong collars or e-collars or many other aversive tools. I don't think head collars are the most effective tool out there for many reasons which are outlined nicely in the article I linked to earlier :D Yes, I do walk them on flat collars, with the exception of Micha who has to be walked on a martingale for safety reasons as he can slip flat collars. I have no problem with people using tools, I have used them myself and totally agree they are sometimes necessary, but I do think that they should be used as a tool, not as a training method, and that the goal should be eventually not having to use them. Putting a head collar on your dog and using it as a replacement for actually training your dog is lazy, IMO, and can back fire if the dog learns to pull on the tool anyway. Head collars, if being used properly, will be used along with a good training program. And you're just being silly with your no leash and collar statement - that has nothing to do with teaching your dog not to pull on the leash. Dogs pull on the leash because they learn that's how to get where they want to go. Training them not to pull is about teaching them that pulling doesn't get them anywhere. You could have a dog who is unreliable off leash who still has decent leash manners - the two do not go hand in hand

Hey GG - if you are in Brissy I can refer you to a great trainer here :D Will PM you the details. I think how aversive the dog finds a particular tool is dependent on the dog, and if the tool is appropriate for them, and if it's being used correctly etc etc. For Micha, a head collar was way more aversive for him than a martingale. I wouldn't use a head collar the same way I would use a (for eg) martingale, so I disagree that the method is the same Because it's a crutch, and what happens if you don't have the head collar one day and are required to walk the dog without one? Because IMO it's fairer to the dog to actually teach them not to pull, which is not being done if you are forever reliant on a tool like a head collar to walk them on. It's easier in the long run to have a dog who understands that pulling will not get them where they want to go. Suzanne Clothier put it far more eloquently than I did

She's funny... she doesn't comply to commands well when people other than me give them too (not that I actually mind that) :D

I like to think this too, although I know it's not probable with Daisy - she will walk perfectly on leash for me on a simple flat collar but hand her over to my mum and she totally takes advantage of the fact mum is a real pushover and the leash manners she has with me go out the window!

Yes which is exactly what LC said, or am I missing something? *or discomfort Some dogs find the head collar sitting over their muzzle aversive even when they aren't pulling - I have seen dogs shut down just from having the head collar put on, without the leash even being attached, so there can be dogs who find them uncomfortable even when they aren't pulling. If the dog immediately starts pulling as soon as the head collars comes off, doesn't it make it clear that the head collar is aversive to the dog on some level in order for it to work? If they start pulling as soon as it comes off, what have you taught the dog? Isn't it better to teach the dog not to pull so you don't have to forever rely on a tool like a head collar in order to walk them? What happens if the dog learns to pull on the head collar as some dogs do? Those damn crazy dog people :eek:

I'm not forcing my methods on to others, I am simply having a discussion on the pros/cons of the methods. I already acknowledged there are instances where head collars can work well for the right dog. Well GoldenGirl has already posted saying that's not how she felt my posts came across, perhaps you're still upset about the thread in the puppy forum when I disagreed with the method you suggested? I am not trying to make anyone feel guilty at all. We are simply having a discussion about training methods. Are you serious? Posting just to tell others that they are disgusting and forcing their opinions on to others is posting purely to have a stir and cause trouble - you aren't contributing to the topic of the thread by telling people not to share their opinion. For someone who doesn't "waste their valuable time on anonymous faces hiding behind a computer screen" it is sure coming across like I've upset or offended you on a personal level - now we're unfriendly and cliquey? Why are you so upset and offended if we're not worth wasting time on? BTW - I don't know how we are being cliquey, Longcoat is a new poster here too and I have no idea who they are! And BTW - I've met at least 100 DOLers in real life, and I am sure they would be more than happy to tell you I am far from someone who "hides" behind my computer screen

Bindii I mean this in the least pushy way but LC is right - head collars wouldn't work if they weren't aversive to the dog on some level. Perhaps "pain" is the wrong word, but it is naive to think that they don't cause some level of discomfort or unpleasantness otherwise the dog would continue to pull. When the dog pulls on a head collar, it pulls their head down and/or to the side - you can't tell me that isn't unpleasant to have your head jerked down or to the side - that is why head collars work just like many other aversive tools. One of my biggest pet hates is people who thinks head collars are not aversive like prongs, check chains, or any other corrective tool. They are all aversive on some level otherwise they wouldn't work. Whether it works for the dog is depends on what you define as 'works' - I have seen people who walk their dog on a head collar and the moment it comes off the dog pulls like a steam train. In that instance, is the head collar really working to teach the dog not to pull? **purely posting for the purpose of having a interesting discussion **