lovemesideways

an outtake from my self portrait shoot 014/366 Days by Jen Martin Photography, on Flickr Holy crap I made it 2 weeks!!

02/52 Weeks of Self Portraits by Jen Martin Photography, on Flickr Tried to take a "glamour" shot this week. Compete with makeup up, boobs and fluffy hair.

Out of curiosity LMSW, how long was your leash and why was the pup hitting the end of it so hard? He was hitting it so hard because thats how he does everything in life. When he wanted to go somewhere, to someone, or a dog, or a leaf that happened to be on the ground he just ran for it. I would clip a leash on to take him out of his crate at 3am, he would wake up, try to sprint off, hit the end of the leash and spin in the air. Then land and try and do it again. If I held him on a short leash or by the collar he would just strain against it, coughing and choking. Enthusiasm, he has it. Lol. I didn't think of the consequences of it until I noticed his throat was tender and he was coughing. This was varying leashes so not set length. Never a long line though. Okay, I understand where you are coming from. However is that not a training problem as opposed to a training tool problem? ie the pup does not yet understand the limits of the leash and how to direct his energy. I would consider it both personally. This was the incorrect tool for the puppy, and for the training being done. I realise this was not directed at me but relates to the above. My Malinois pup reacted in a similar way first time on a leash and collar at 8 weeks - like a fish thrashing about on the end of a line LOL. So yes, I know where you are coming from. My solution to that was to put her on a harness initially to move her about, but to do her obedience work using a flat collar and leash. She has fast learnt, in a reasonably gentle way, that the leash has a limit and how to channel all that enthusiasm back into something useful. At four months old she'll still pull like mad when she becomes overstimulated, but I can easily redirect that energy straight back into focus on me and/or heel-work on command. Fish or land shark? I still have healing marks I swear :laugh: What you did sounds very similar to what I did/am doing with Roscoe :) Hes on a harness with a long line attached. With other work done on a martingale and leash (I found that the martingale didn't tend to snap on the front of his throat the same way a flat collar did).

Oh yeah, thats what im talking bout ;) !! Beychief has a bitch for Izilop lines :D I think Beychief's are primarily working/showline mixes aren't they? Primarily SL, some WL on her website. She has a good mix of show and working lines. A stud from Raennik, bitch from Izilop, she has another 2 Full WL bitches that I know of (I met a number of years ago). Though they aren't on her site that I can see, but its in dire need of an update. (as are most breeders sites :laugh:) Beautiful dogs either way, and the most amazing kennels! I believe most of her Showlines have working dogs in their background as well. Oooo who're his parents (if you don't mind me asking)?! :D My boy has Raennik in him, I wonder if they're related :D.

:thumbsup: Definitely!

Out of curiosity LMSW, how long was your leash and why was the pup hitting the end of it so hard? He was hitting it so hard because thats how he does everything in life. When he wanted to go somewhere, to someone, or a dog, or a leaf that happened to be on the ground he just ran for it. I would clip a leash on to take him out of his crate at 3am, he would wake up, try to sprint off, hit the end of the leash and spin in the air. Then land and try and do it again. If I held him on a short leash or by the collar he would just strain against it, coughing and choking. Enthusiasm, he has it. Lol. I didn't think of the consequences of it until I noticed his throat was tender and he was coughing. This was varying leashes so not set length. Never a long line though. If you don't understand how what I said relates to loose leash walking thats ok. Hey can we see a video of you working with your dog? Or any dog for that matter :D Bullshit? Ok :laugh: Scissors can kill someone, yet we sell them in supermarkets... Ive seen a dog injure himself with a harness, rubbed him to the point of raw bleeding under front legs, should they be taken off the market? :laugh: Its not the tool, its how its used. I will never again have a flat collar and leash only on a high drive puppy (I used one of my lab and thats all hes ever worn, no issue). I ignored the warnings against it, and got to enjoy the vet bills. Hes a working line GSD, he would run and hit the end of the leash at full throttle (this is at 8 weeks old), spin through the air by his neck, and then do the same thing again. This ended in him having highly irritated tonsils. Talked to your vet did you? Wow you called them just for me :D Im so special! What part of "I use corrections" don't you understand? I have no issue with them, so not sure what you mean by "alternative training methods"? Unless you mean using whatever method works for the individual dog. Seriously ... oh wait whats your name this time? Oh right, "Mace" ;)... Edit: Nevermind about the video, just seen some and wow. Confirms everything. Not a bad looking GSD, shame about the training. Lack of drive too. :laugh: What the hell are you on about LMSW, do you think because you have gone from a Lab to GSD pup you are now a full bottle on everything What would I want videos for, this is a discussion isn't it? You are talking about abuse caused by trainer/handler error, it's not an across the board result of using particular methods and tools that all these terrible consequences happen, when you know how to use them properly, it doesn't happen and if you hurt your poor little pup with a flat collar, blame yourself not the damn collar :rolleyes: The reason I wanted to see a video was to see if you actually own a dog, and can train it. Instead of just go on about how others are doing the wrong thing. I could google rockets for hours, and have a very convincing argument with someone about it online, but that doesn't mean I have any real idea of how they work or how to build one. Its a matter of being able to actually execute all these things you talk about. I mention both my dogs because they are at completely opposite ends of the spectrum, so they provide a great example of how what works perfectly for one dog, did not work for another. So saying that one method is the right method, or that every puppy can be trained with a simple flat collar and leash is not accurate. I made a error, I used the wrong tool for a very enthusiastic puppy. That tool combined with that type of dog equaled injury. Which is why I would advise against that same tool for a young driven dog. So others can avoid making the mistake I made and having their puppy injure themselves. Just like I would never in a million years let a large dog have a small-medium rubber ball, after breaking my wrist retrieving one out of a large male GSDs throat. That doesn't mean balls are bad, just that others should take my experience into account and learn from it, without having to go through the same trauma themselves. My "poor little pup" is great by the way, despite the obvious abuse he suffered :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:. Out of curiosity, since obviously everything can be trained with a flat collar and a leash for a puppy, what would you have done differently?

If you don't understand how what I said relates to loose leash walking thats ok. Hey can we see a video of you working with your dog? Or any dog for that matter :D Bullshit? Ok :laugh: Scissors can kill someone, yet we sell them in supermarkets... Ive seen a dog injure himself with a harness, rubbed him to the point of raw bleeding under front legs, should they be taken off the market? :laugh: Its not the tool, its how its used. I will never again have a flat collar and leash only on a high drive puppy (I used one of my lab and thats all hes ever worn, no issue). I ignored the warnings against it, and got to enjoy the vet bills. Hes a working line GSD, he would run and hit the end of the leash at full throttle (this is at 8 weeks old), spin through the air by his neck, and then do the same thing again. This ended in him having highly irritated tonsils. Talked to your vet did you? Wow you called them just for me :D Im so special! What part of "I use corrections" don't you understand? I have no issue with them, so not sure what you mean by "alternative training methods"? Unless you mean using whatever method works for the individual dog. Seriously ... oh wait whats your name this time? Oh right, "Mace" ;)... Edit: Nevermind about the video, just seen some and wow. Confirms everything. Not a bad looking GSD, shame about the training. Lack of drive too. :laugh:

Aidan what gives or speaks with authority for each of us is different. For many people in regards to dog training science speaks with authority. I could say the same thing to those people, be a little less credulous. This is not having a dig, just noting that the lines of authority speak differently to different people. I am a person who is impressed by real world experience, not science when it comes to dog training. Would LOVE to see a video of you and your dog then.

I'll explain his technique too you. You need a check chain or prong, and a long line. Let the dog go, wait till they are walking away from you and not paying attention, and correct as hard as you can when they get to the end of the line. Walk the other way, wait till dog isn't paying attention and gets to the end of the line, turn and correct again. Dog learns very quickly to pay attention to the line or they get a correction. Gradually shorten the line. Correct them enough times, you will have a panting slinking dog who will follow your every move for fear of a correction. Drop the line. The reason you have a long line is so that when the dog tries to venture off you can quickly pick up the line and hit them with another correction. Thats basically it. Its very fast and effective, but mentally its damaging for your dog, and long term it isn't the greatest. That's not how you train on the long line though LMSW? When you start off with a pup, you use a flat collar and the long line attached is to get the pups attention when it becomes distracted from the game of follow me which is reinforced with rewards when the pup is in position. There is a corrective action on the line on change of direction and you correct the pup as hard as need be to get attention and tell the pup, "hey you are going the wrong way", you DON'T rip it's head off and shut the pup down, if that happens it's a trainer error not a fault of the method, only an idiot would do what you described. The same with an adolecent dog, you correct as hard as need be, if the dog is shutting down you are doing it wrong, but what I can tell you, if you train a pup properly in this method, you don't need prong collars or any of that crap down the track to uphold a loose leash walk, in fact you don't even need a leash which is what the method was designed to achieve, off leash reliability. The method as written by Koehler has a harshness about it I agree, but you use some common sense, a bit like treat trainers jamming so many treats down a dogs throat it throws up is just as stupid as shutting a dog down with massive corrections, every method can be abused and the skill is to apply it accordingly. :laugh: Seriously? Yes I know that's not how you train on a long long. My Lab has 100% recall (and I do mean 100%) and I never needed to correct him on a long line once in his life, my GSD is going the same way too. No long line corrections needed so obviously I'm doing something right. I also wouldn't correct a puppy on a long line with a flat collar anyway. Do you know what sort of damage that can do? I used a flat collar on my GSD for the first 2 weeks I had him, he spent 3 weeks with no collar or pressure on his throat allowed due to the damage he had done himself with a flat collar. Not fun! I was explaining the "miracle" as shown in the video. A adult dog, generally with a history of success in pulling, and a high level of tolerance to pain on his neck. That's why you need a check chain, prong collar or E Collar. Don Sullivan does the same thing (though he has his own shoddy plastic prong collar called a "command collar"), Ed Frawley does the same thing (though he judges the level of correction based on the dog). Its not exactly a unique method. I was taught it in a class I took at a very well respected organisation, using a check chain. Correct pretty much any dog hard enough and you'll get a very fast result that looks really amazing on camera. That is if you don't know the body language of a dog in distress... (The Dog Whisperer anyone? ;) )

Oh yeah, thats what im talking bout ;) !! Beychief has a bitch for Izilop lines :D

012/366 Days by Jen Martin Photography, on Flickr 013/366 Days by Jen Martin Photography, on Flickr Branching out a little. Not sure about these new shots.

You see Nekhbet, one only has to mention the name Koehler and you get this nonsense. The above bears little relation to the Koehler long line method. I make a note for anyone reading the above: do not use a prong collar for long line work. The long line work is done with a check chain. Leerburg uses a prong on a long line. Whats wrong with a prong on a long line? I was explaining the video. Not Koehler.

I think the aim was efficiency and reliability ... he did train all the Disney dogs for movies ... people recoil a little when you tell them that :laugh: hah thats like watching some of the old western movies, and knowing the way they make the horses fall for the fake gun shots is by stringing rope across the road. What do you think of the reliability in the long run? There is no doubt its very efficient, very few dogs wont respond to a few heavy corrections!

I'll explain his technique too you. You need a check chain or prong, and a long line. Let the dog go, wait till they are walking away from you and not paying attention, and correct as hard as you can when they get to the end of the line. Walk the other way, wait till dog isn't paying attention and gets to the end of the line, turn and correct again. Dog learns very quickly to pay attention to the line or they get a correction. Gradually shorten the line. Correct them enough times, you will have a panting slinking dog who will follow your every move for fear of a correction. Drop the line. The reason you have a long line is so that when the dog tries to venture off you can quickly pick up the line and hit them with another correction. Thats basically it. Its very fast and effective, but mentally its damaging for your dog, and long term it isn't the greatest.

Aidan2, there is a difference between a dog bred for shutzhund, and a dog for PP. Sport dogs have very high prey drives. While for PP, you would be looking at a dog with moderate prey drive but also civilian drive. The ratio most PP handlers look for is a ratio of 60/40 with the 60% being civilian drive. Ofcourse the ratio differs between handlers but you get my idea. If you dont agree i would love to hear your opinion on this issue :) Robbie Not really, I have no idea what you mean... My "sport" dog has plenty of prey and "civil" drive (as you call it). I have never heard of a ratio when referring to drives, I didn't know you could breed ratio/ numbers into dogs. You mentioned Czech dogs - The Czech dogs here in OZ are Schutzhund titled dogs or have been bred from Schutzhund titled dogs......... Sport dogs.......... I can point you in the direction of where Hans ( co founder of the alpine/jinopo line) measured drives in percentage. With many other top trainers using percentage to describe the level of drive. Hans gave a 50/50. Where these dogs titled here in Oz? You can get a SchH 3 dog, awesome at doing the circuit he has been taught to do a thousand times. Bring him into a real life situation, where some guy is mugging you on the street thats where i would want the dog to react. The SchH test was originally brought out to show the strengths of the dog. And im sure on a world class level those titles still represent exactly that. These dogs are titled...No thanks you can have them. These are dogs that had to pass a test to be in the ring, the decoy did not even put real pressure on the dogs. That is the bitework of a major conformation show in Germany and ALL these dogs have SchH titles OMG those dogs!!!! That work was just incredibly shoddy, the majority of them freaked out when the decoy touched them, then flinched at the approaching judge. Just wow.

The Koehler method for teaching the sit involves gently placing the sit with approx 150 repetitions over four days in as many different locations as you can find. Then and only then, will corrections be given for failure to sit. Every exercise Koehler teaches follows this same pattern. Never said that was the Koehler method? That was just a example of shoddy corrections.

don't worry that video has already come back to bite me ... I'm losing my tough image aren't I I love my working dogs but I'm still a big sap at heart aren't I ;) :laugh: I think your image is forever ruined.

true ... but over conditioning the dog into prey drive can also make it incredibly difficult to flick some animals into a more defensive drive because they keep being such nanas over equipment. Prey drive is good for prey based work like Sch, if you want to do more with the animal or go outside set patterns it may not be necessarily the bees knees. My young mal has prey coming out of her ears, in fact the last thing I wanted to do was keep building it. My theory on not letting her play tug with us much paid off though, she wasnt equipment conditioned and flicked out of prey VERY quickly *cheer* Working pups are fun I can't wait to get a couple more, home bred will be even better ;) <embed width="600" height="361" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowFullscreen="true" allowNetworking="all" wmode="transparent" src="http://static.photobucket.com/player.swf" flashvars="file=http%3A%2F%2Fvid24.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc11%2FMali_nut%2Fsprogdog.mp4"> :laugh: "Ready Spaghetti?" love it. :laugh: (Should use youtube for videos, my computer hates photobucket, they have a very angry relationship. Lol) I didn't mean just prey drive. I meant the drive to work. If you have a dog with drive (any sort of drive mind you, food, play, pack, prey etc.) and engagement, then the possibilities are much wider not to mention easier to attain in my (limited) experience. Not really sure what you mean by a defensive drive. Would that be for a protection dog? Its hard to keep track sometimes when every trainer likes to use a different term . Working pups are definitely fun... though totally crazy and life controlling :laugh:.

They seem to be by the same person as well............. Though the usernames change so it must be someone different right? ;) I do use a clicker btw :D! (Just not exclusively) Shaping is loads of fun. Love watching Roscoes brain tick as he tries to figure things out :D :D

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: You laugh at Keohler LMSW then you ask questions like this: Thanks for the reply, very interesting. And don't worry, not stepping on anyones toes ! Its not advice for me to follow specifically, just a hypothetical to get another opinion on the difference in training when the standard just does not work! From someone who owns working dogs! (Getting a working line breed certainly changes your perspective I was a bit of a cocky shit before. Lol..) You should be able to train anything with a clicker and treat hey? Lol? How was what you quoted a question? Yes I'm laughing at the Koehler method, due to another thread were it was repeated how a dog trained with that method would be perfect by 10 weeks old. Despite me pulling out one of my books and pointing out some of the incredibly out dated methods that koehler suggested (Such as beating a 8 week old puppy with the end of a leash if he made noise), and many of the other trainers on here giving various examples as to how the advances in training methodology have allowed us to move forward and use not only more humane methods of training (I have no issues with correction, as long as the dog actually understands why he is getting a correction. Not Sit *correct* sit *correct* sit *correct* Sit *dog sits* good dog.), but faster and more effective methods that give us a better trained, happier and more driven dog. :) Thats why its a funny comment. And My comment about the standard not working, was related to nekhbets comment on giving a young dog small correction on a flat collar. Try and correct my boy on a flat collar, go ahead. He just laughs. Same as a martingale. That is what I meant by the standard. I have had to be very smart and creative with my boy, willing to throw out the old standards and try new things. Maybe you should learn something about who you're commenting on before making stupid statements like "You should be able to train anything with a clicker and treat hey? ". Though hey, it gives the rest of us a good laugh :laugh: :laugh: (Though I do love my clicker and treats, they're a great tool to use )

:D thanks, hes my baby <3! Plans are Obedience, Rally, Possibly Tracking, Agility (thought not sure if we would compete). I would love to do Schutzhund but the lack of clubs makes that difficult. At the moment its just all about building his drive :) If you have the drive you can do anything :D Nekhbet: <3 Your boy was Beautiful!

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

My boy is from beychief :thumbsup: Christine has some beautiful dogs and really knows her stuff. :D My boys still a baby (hes almost 6 months now) but here are some photos for you Roscoe 8 weeks by lovemesideways, on Flickr Roscoe at 16 Weeks by lovemesideways, on Flickr Roscoe 18 weeks by lovemesideways, on Flickr BALL!!! by lovemesideways, on Flickr

I'm talking about the first one, they're the only one I have had feedback on, and managed to get in contact with.

The Schutzhund clubs in Sydney don't have a great reputation (there is only one that I know of.) They don't compete in anything.. So you unfortunately wont really find a club around here. Ive been looking since I got my boy. I would love to do Schutzhund but no clubs to work with.