Diva

That you need to be a strong advocate for your dog when dealing with vets and trainers, as you know the dog best.

I've owned Belgians - not Mals, Tervs and Groens. And yes they are sensitive. They also have a completely different attitude to training and working with people than my Borzois. I didn't say my dogs 'hold it against me ' either, that's anthropomorphising. I said a big P+ they didn't perceive as 'justified' would severely impact on their relationship with me and to training with me. I've owned the breed for over twenty years. On this, I know. But if you aren't willing to accept that people with specific experience have anything of truth to add, your loss.

My old Belgian Shepherd was like that, huge calming skills. He was an entire male but I don't think he ever had a fight in his life, even other aggressive entire males could be settled by him. A prince of a dog. My current girls are good off-lead. But I had to stop walking them on-lead together because they had so many bad encounters when on-lead, including a full on attack by a pair of unaccompanied GSD's, that they got a bit barky and reactive when together. I've had to start walking them singly for a while - which is a pain time-wise but breaks up that feeding off of each other's excitment which had started to happen. Hopefully I can get them together and calm again soon, but it is annoying that other people's negligence causes my dogs good behaviour to break down for a while.

I'm sure a lot do get perceived that way unnecessarily. And in some breeds what you see as 'weak nerve' may be becoming a problem. But I don't see my dogs' strong reaction to correction by me as 'weak nerve' at all. It's what the breed is, and it has been part of their working nature as much as in their pet role. If you applied a large physical adversive, as stranger, they probably would bounce back, albeiting avoiding you like the plague everafter. But if I, as their handler, did that - without them feeling it was a 'fair cop' for some gross and deliberate misbehaviour on their part - they would be very badly affected by it. It certainly wouldn't be instructive as a training technique. It would be destructive. My breed used to be considered 'untrainable' by the 'traditional', western, obedience dog people - as I found out when I tried to joind an all-breeds obedience club with one back in the eighties. But was just their crap - a failure of training methods which relied on punishment. Fortunately for me at about the same time I realised that that western attitude was despised in the country of origin, where people knew what they were and how to train them.

It's almost like some of the troublemakers have learnt that they can aggress at on-lead dogs and they aren't anywhere near as cocky off-lead. And mine are definately more relaxed and able to respond more appropriately if they are hassled off-lead than on, but it takes a leap of faith to just let it happen. The bottom line for me is that mine can probably hold their own in a fight - but it's the last thing I want.

I was very polite the other night and didn't have a go at this owner despite high provocation, so maybe I'll join in your new year's resolution pf. We were walking along a footpath that edges an off-lead area - the footpath isn't off lead and people's front yards open on to it right there so my dog is on-lead. Along the footpath come two off-lead dogs , an elderly swf behaving very well and a younger male medium-sized terrier type who isn't. The terrier is all hackles and macho intent, stalking my dog and completely ignoring his owner yelling to call him back. I try to walk away but it's not leaving me. He stops approaching when I stop and face him but he won't let his owner catch him and I'm not going to stand there all night. I ask the guy if the dog is friendly - he thinks it may not attack if my dog is a girl but isn't sure . If my dog was male he is sure it would. So I figure I'm right next to the off-lead area and my dog stands a much better chance of defusing the tension off-lead than on. And if he is determined to fight she will either whip his butt or just out run him if I'm not in the middle of it. So I walk into the off-lead area and let her off-lead. Aggro boy has of course followed us, but she calmly approached him and although he never relaxed he decided she was too much for him I think and at the last second averted his head. Next thing I know he has spotted another dog on the other side of the oval and is off like a rocket with owner screaming after him again. Might as well have saved his breath absolutely no effect. I didn't hang around to see how it ended.

Actually my dogs would be traumatised for a very long time - or at least have their relationship to me and to training severely impacted - by one big physical correction (P+ I mean) from me or even by a lot of smaller ill-judged ones. As you say, you need to know your dog - and a lot of trainers and novice owners don't know much at all once you get into some of the less mainstream breeds/temperaments.

Slightly off topic - I saw Ted Turner live in Sydney at the Hills (I think) dog club seminar several + years ago. Anyone else there? It was prettty good. Interesting work with tigers and marine mamamls. As I recall - and it's a memory so may be a bit off - he had a human agressive Akita he had to pts, which dented my faith a bit.

Thanks Aidan, that's exactly what I was trying to get my head around last night but I wasn't up to it!

Yes, I know it's about dimishing unwanted behaviour, I clearly wasn't being very clear. Nevermind, I think I'll just stick with my definitions.

I still have trouble viewing witholding the reward as a punishment without some mental gymnastics. When my dogs know the training game, if they don't get rewarded they try harder or try something else, trying to work out what the criteria is. I don't see behaviour diminish, unless perhaps I have the reinforcement schedule wrong for that dog or they are satiated/tired- but that's not punishment to me.

...and that they aren't reacting out of emotion. I've seen too many people use punishment out of frustration, without having thought it through. I've seen people mis-use/mis-time reinforcements as an expression of their emotional state too, and that's also bad training, but it's not as hard on the dog. I acknowledge positive punishment has its place in training but I am very careful of it as a tool both because of it's potential to damage and because I think it calls to the worst part of our natures. As a species we love to punish and blame even when it's counter to our long term aspirations, and many people will escalate punishment even when it's clearly not working.

Thanks, but at least I was lucky in the owner - I'd have felt so much worse if she had blamed me.

To me, the eight rules in the OP seem to be speaking of 'positive punishment' - ie actively applying a bad consequence to decrease a behaviour. And in that context I don't have much problem with them. What you are talking abut Pax - and incidently it's a technique I use a lot - I'd usually think of as the dog simply not meeting the criteria for positive reinforcement (eg door opening) rather than as punishment. I can see how it could be thought of differently though if it is the action of 'not sitting' that you are punishing, rather than the act of sitting that you are reinforcing, in which case it would to me be 'negative punishment' - ie the removal of a good consequence to decrease the behaviour of 'not sitting'. I don't think the eight rules are really designed to apply to negative punishment even though they don't make that distinction. I still think in the four quadrants.

A few months ago at dusk on the way home from work I hit and killed a little dog. I pulled over as soon as safe to do so and ran back and the owner was already there. But it was the oppposite to your experience - her first words to me were 'It's not your fault'. She had been putting her rubbish bin out and her 3 little dogs had dashed out after her, she was trying to call them back when this one ran out under my wheels. I was still upset of course, but she was right it wasn't my fault, and she was very gracious I thought to say so even in the middle of her own distress.

Don't think I could hunt wolves. Rabbit and hare at least are feral here, and a quick death in the jaws of a hound seems kinder than the diseases and poisons used on them. But I couldn't do wolves, not even when wolf hunting was a large part of why the modern Borzoi exists. Bit of a contradiction I know, when I'm in support of functional tests, but the culling of a species now under as much pressure as the wolf is not something that appeals.

Personally, if you have a secure enough yard that you can guarantee no escape, I'd let him mature first. It's not an opinion popular on this forum and most will disagree with me, but I have a giant breed and I take the growth plate issues seriously. Small breed which matures early it probably doesn't matter. Rottylover, the only blokes who think your dog isn't a man anymore are those who, firstly, confuse their dog's balls with their own, and secondly, think the only think that makes them a real man is testicles. Not right, not bright and not worth it. IMHO

That sounds like the park in Page? If not, it happened there too. Used to get a huge group there until the cricketers objected, and yep, deckchairs

Many of the 'Eastern' sighthounds are still involved in hunting or live coursing in their countries of origin and elsewhere, not on the scale it used to be but to some degree. And many sighthounds lure course or race, not the same as the original task but a functional test. The Scandanavian spitz type hunting dogs could still be hunting too, Finland at least is protective of the right to hunt and cherishes its native breeds' original purpose. Some of European herding dogs would still work on farms there. And the livestock guardians are being used for their original purpose in places. And the toy breeds of course - bred as companions, and still are. Bits of those working activities take place in Australia, but not so much.

Sounds like my local. Used to be more active but a few of the group moved away, and I don't often get down their during the work week as they gather a bit early. But in it's hey day we could have a Visla, Labrador, several kelpie and acd crosses, a staffie, a couple of pugs, a bull arab type, a ridgeback and a Borzoi all playing or pottering. And as it's a multi-use area there could be kids at one end playing soccer, someone with a kite at the other, etc.

Yes that can happen and is one of several reasons it's recognised as only at best a partial test of working ability. But a whole lot better than none. I know I can't use coursing as a reinforcer. I can and do use sprinting that way in training at a park - as they sprint around around me in circles if released off-lead alone - but it tends to be the end of the session, they won't work with the same intensity once they've got the sprint out of their system. Food and praise are easier in that I can work with them longer without the dog reaching satiation (if I'm careful). I'm was hoping to be able to transfer 'whatever' that drive on the lure is to a toy but I think more fundamentally I'm also interested in the anticipation affect on the dog of training in drive and how that translates into performce. This thread has been useful to me in letting me work out it's that, not necessarily the use of a tug, that is what I want to get out it.

So the full suit doesn't include ripping apart? That's what I thought you were saying before, that prey drive included an intention to rip apart the prey. Which is different, of course, from the action of killing it. But to stop being a pedant for a moment, I agree with your general point. I doubt sheepdog trainers deliberately breed from dogs that kill sheep etc. I also doubt they make those decisions on pups, but I'm not sure what age range you meant by that and think maybe the whole breeding choice issue is a red herring in this thread? I don't agree that it's not prey drive being demonstrated when the dogs stop somewhere along that seek, stalk, chase, grab, kill sequence. I think my sighthound courses out of a prey drive motivation. The body language is not play body language. The level of satisfaction she gets from it is deeper than from any form of play. And as you have said (I think?) that prey drive can't be utilised for obedience training, only play drive , then you'd suggest I'm better of not going there with her? I'm getting confused

With all due respect Corvus, one of the challenges in science communication is remembering that the whole point is to communicate, not to just get caught up in your own journey - and I say that as someone one of whose recent jobs was to review the relevance and impact of a major national research program. ;) Lost me again - did you mean to say killing skills, rather than the stated hunting skills? There is a lot more to hunting than the kill, and those skills do need to be honed in play. The muscles, reflexes and decision making used in the hunt are developed in play. Edited because I misspelt 'communicate' - which is really rather ironic

Thanks ssm, brilliant video and exactly what I what I was trying to get at. Not much use breeding a sighthound to hunt your meat if it's intent is to rip it into little pieces as Corvus suggests, unless you like minced meat. Videos I have viewed of Borzoi catching hare in Russia and Jackrabbits in the US show intact hares/rabbits at the end, and the Borzoi lure coursing events I attended in the USA and France didn't have many dogs trying the rip into the lure either. And even when used on wolves the historical reported intent was to pin and hold. Appreciate the suggestion of joint training sessions, I'd enjoy that. I'm trying to get my head around the different conceptual frameworks people are using but there doesn't appear to be much agreement in the area of drives.

Corvus You are saying then that if the dog doesn't intend to rip up the lure when they get it, they aren't in prey drive when chasing it? Can you confirm that's what you mean? thanks