Vickie

Depends what sort of look you are going for. If the background is not picturesque, I would use the 75-300 lense. Put it on Aperture priority, set the aperture at F8, and adjust your ISO untill you get a shutter speed of at least 800. On a dull day you may have to go quite a bit higher than ISO 400. Position yourself sitting on the ground and have the light behind you. Make sense? If the background is nice & you don't want it blurred, you could use the kit lense, but the dogs will presumably not be running right in front of you, so it would be more of a distance shot, like a landscape with dogs in it.

you are so silly I often have trouble. Everytime I pick up a camera at home they all jump up & race outside. They equate camera with playtime. Getting them then to settle down is near impossible. Out & about is easier. I just let them do their own thing & photos are incidental. My best photos always happen in unstaged shots, the harder I try the crappier the pics are. Despite the fact that they all have a good stay, getting a nice portrait of all 4 together has so far evaded me.

I feel your pain. Trim could easily have been like this if I let her. She also finds balls anywhere & everywhere & HAS to have them, so that she can shove them at me & stare intensely at me. Luckily she generally respects my "that'll do". I put them up, somewhere that she can see them but not reach them. Shine is almost as obsessive, but not so pushy about it. If anyone has a tennis ball, she will take it from them, try to initiate a game with me, but if I ignore her, she will just sit with it. I had to do zero tolerance with Trim. I put it up where she can see it, tell her "that'll do" & any whining earns her a trip outside. This seemed to work. she still manages to put it over most visitors who come to our house. I remember going to someone's house once & she was whining at a cupboard. I told them there was a ball there. They said no, they didn't think they had any tennis balls. I said, I'm telling you there is a ball there. Sure enough we moved the cupboard & there it was. Another time, we were walking past this manky lagoon & there was a tennis ball about 2 metres in. She saw it, looked at me in hope & then looked dejected when I said no. We kept walking & about 5 mins later I noticed she wasn't with me. Disgustingly filthy & stinking rotten, she appeared a minute later...with the ball of course .

It matters because this is a discussion forum & this is a discussion...and obviously one that people are interested in.

Me too. I know dogs don't do things purely & utterly to please, there has to be some history of reinforcement...but...it still doesn't explain the different levels of biddableness in dogs to me. and it doesn't explain why the same person can take a talented hard headed dog & breed it to something softer to get a talented & more biddable dog.

I guess it's semantics. I don't think it takes a human intellect for a dog to repeat or offer a behaviour in order to get something. Sure it is not capable of literally thinking, I will do this b/c my owner likes it, but if a dog gets rewarded (either by a person or externally) each time it does something, it will continue to do it. So in a way it does know what pleases the human as it is used to being rewarded for certain things. Obviously a dog is not capable of seeing a nice flower & thinking, oh my owner would like that, I will give it to her. A question for you...what does the word biddable mean to you? In the many dogs you have worked on stock, surely some have been more willing to follow direction from the get go & some you have had to battle a bit with first. What is the difference between them in your opinion? Is it just variations of prey drive levels? In general life, why is it that some dogs you struggle more with than others? Why are some more willing to accept the rules & some need to question them first? eg, years ago my husband left our side gate open. We had 2 dogs. 1 was found sitting on the front doorstep, then other standing inside the yard at the gate. Now I know he didn't stay inside the yard to please me, but what is the difference between the 2? Same ages, treated the same & disciplined the same. As pups, one had to be taught a recall, the other has pretty much always just stayed within a metre of me. Is that natural pack drive?

PS, if you want to see some fallacies, half & mistruths...have a read of this thread: http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=150070 some of it is funny but some of it is almost delusional.

you lost me on that one Tony.

Good for you. Best of luck, let us know how she goes.

you may also find that as time goes by, they will work things out themselves, 6 weeks is not very long. I would continue to feed separately but also know that they may need some more time to work each others signals out. Do you hand feed them treats while they are both sitting in front of you?

I don't usually post in this thread but we had such a good day today that I thought I would share our excitement. In agility today we managed, 5 qualifications out of the 8 runs we had. 2 first places, 3 second places & we also finished off Trim's Open Jumping Title AND her Masters Jumping title . They were big classes so 1sts & 2nds were very rewarding. I'm very proud of both my girls, they both ran so well in all 8 runs. I was moaning last week about how I wish clubs still gave dog food for prizes & now, after today we have 6 bags of it + enough petrol vouchers to fill my car twice. A very good day!

Please keep us up to date with your progress, I will be very interested in this one. A friend of has a GSD who is 11 now who has always done this...in fact that was how we originally met, since her dog charged at me hackles up & barking. I must say I was TOTALLY terrified, especially since I was holding my 2 week old baby in my arms at the time. Anyway, she turned out to be the sweetest, most loving & affectionate of dogs, a true gentle giant who just has this really weird approach thing, but has never taken it any further in the 9 years we have been friends. I am not saying this is the case with your dog, you need to see someone & have it assessed. What I can tell you is that it is terrifying for the person on the other side and obviously a potential disaster waiting to happen. I wonder if this is a common GSD thing? I met another GSD recently who seemed to do the same thing.

Thanks for all your replies, seems like starting as if a puppy would be best. My friend is quite a capable dog owner & I know she will do the right thing. I think she was just a bit worried about critical periods the dog may have missed in the kennels. The dog was placed for cosmetic reasons relating to the show ring , structure is very nice . Seems to have a nice solid temperament & although reacts to new things as would be expected given it's history, also seems to have excellent bounceback.

I had problems with my D70s, The motor drive went, so it went in for repair...took forever, but most of that time was spent in the camera shop before going to be repaired. It is currently out of action again. I wore out the shutter. Apparently they are only good for 100 000 shots. We haven't had it fixed yet. but really should do that. Before the shutter went, it used to cut out in the middle of a shot. was on and off a bit before it finally died.

I know Castle Hill well. You will probably find that once you move to Blue things will be a bit easier as the courses are more complex & need to be worked a bit more & there tends to be a much better overall level of control in the other dogs & heaps more space. How far are you off weaving? Catch 22 though I guess, b/c you probably need to get the running off under control before they will move you. As far as rewarding for coming back, I would (and I would certainly NEVER be harsh with him when he came back), but I would put 100% energy into avoiding the running off in the first place. If you continue to call him while he is running around like a loony, from his perspective the word come or his name begins to be associated with the running around rather than the coming. At best you are watering down the effectiveness of the word & this will start to filter into other areas of your life as well. As far as letting him play? Depends what is in your mind vs your heart? If you want to avoid the potential of an attack & you have plans to trial him one day then your mind should be telling you to not let him play at agility at least until he is 100% focussed on you & the equipment. I don't go to Castle Hill any more but I can guarantee that if he ran over to my dog while she was running on course, it would be a very unpleasant experience for him. What are you using as a reward? Whatever it is, I would double the size & tastiness of it & increase the frequency of giving it. Does he do balls or tugs? This would be my preference for a BC. And as Kavik said, take a few steps back. I can lend you a DVD that might help. Do you have any equipment at home? Jumps are pretty easy to build. I don't do or believe in leashed agility training. Unless you are VERY experienced you will correct the dog with the leash as it jumps. As far as somewhere else to go as well that is smaller. There is Paws for Fun on Sunday afternoons at Eric Mobbs Reserve Castle Hill. Canine Fun Sports, some weeknights at Castlereagh & Tus & Fri ams at St Ives. Are you stewarding at the trial on Saturday? or coming to watch? Maybe we will catch up then?

Agree with most of the above, but would also like to offer some advice from an agility perspective. What level of agility are you at & where do you train? I see lots of dogs losing focus on handlers in agility. Some make up their own course, some look for something else to do/chase & some just wander off sniffing. Just as there are lots of different results when dogs lose focus, there are also lot of reasons why they lose focus. Some clubs are just way too busy/ exciting/stressful for inexperienced dogs. Their brain goes into overload & keeping their concentration is hard. Some handlers allow their dogs to play with other dogs before & after class and then expect their dog to stay with them when they see their doggy friends having fun during class. Inexperienced handlers also make the mistake of asking too much of the dog before it is ready, ie long sequences. Dog loses focus. Related to the above, lots of people only ever reward at the end of a run, usually once the dog has sat or had the lead put on. In this case it is not the actual agility that is being rewarded but the sit or the lead. Late commands & poor body language (which most of us are guilty of when we start) also gives dogs the opportunity to find something else to do, since they don't know where to go. Harsh commands & blaming the dog for failure on something they do not know yet is another reason dogs will bow out & find something else to do. There are heaps more, but you get the gist. I am not saying any of the above applies to you, but in 8 years of training & instructing I have seen plenty of it and the result is always a loss of focus. I would recommend, if you are in a location that allows it, trying a smaller club or classes or privates. That way you can keep working on agility but can control the environment a bit more. JMO

Thanks Anita, sounds like she is doing great

I'm posting this in both Training & Breeders forums as I am interested in hearing opinions/experiences from both sides. A friend of mine purchased a well bred 15mth old dog from a breeder who had run the dog on & then decided not to keep it. The dog knew pretty much nothing when it arrived & had been kennelled with the breeder. It is now in a pet home & they are having to start everything from scratch...living inside, walking on leash, sit, recall, bonding with people rather than with dogs, playing, exposure to children, noises, moving objects etc. I have seen a few people in the past struggle with this situation as the dogs habits had developed & needed lots of work for them to get it to the point where it was living a normal pet life. I am not sure what advice to give my friend as I have never been in this situation. My question to trainers is do you treat this adult dog just like you would a puppy? how long would/should it reasonably take for the dog to "catch up" so to speak? My question to breeders is when you do this, do you give different advice to the new owner to what you would give if the dog was 8 weeks? do you prepare the dog for a different type of life before it leaves? would also love to hear experiences from people who have puchased a mature dog.

She sounds very confused to me. 3 weeks is not very long for her to bond with you. Re the putting the paw up, have you tried ignoring it? rather than telling her "bah" loudly? This sounds like an appreasing behaviour from a confused dog rather than stubborness. How did you teach her not to jump? is it possible that you have spent more time teaching her what not to do than what to do? How are you teaching her to stay? dogs do not know what the word means until you teach it. verbal reprimands when she moves will work to teach it, but will not help your relationship issues and will take some time. Better to ask for shorter stays, ie 1 second frm 1 step away & then 2 seconds from 1 step away etc & reward success. She will learn much quicker this way & you may find she displays less submissive behaviours. Make her walks shorter, carry food in your hand (part of her daily meal) and reward her for walking by your side intermittently. Have a read of NILIF. From today stop feeding her from her bowl & hand feed her every bite from your hand in return for her doing something, appropriate to her level of training . Spend some time playing fun games with her, teach her to trust you & to want to please you, make yourself fun. a mind game? what do you mean by this? and what does staying strong entail?

What a great idea, it'll be fun to watch him grow. This photo just melts my heart

Definitely, of course you are right, my breed experience is limited so I can't comment on other breeds, but surely the what you do with the toy would be equally important? regardless of breed? There are lots of dogs I know from different breeds who will play/tug/chase VERY enthusiastically on their own terms, ie with another dog, by themselves or with another person. To me it seems like the person is the problem in the equation rather than the choice of toy and these seem to be the people that are usually moaning about their dog's lack of drive for any object. There is one person that one of my dogs plays with better with than me. This person totally send them over the top. I recognise that that person is better at playing the game than I am. It is nothing to do with the dog, it is a failing on my part somewhere. sorry I have hijacked the purpose of this thread, I will bow out now...sometimes my fingers just type & get carried away

So you don't think dogs can have a favorite drive toy? yes, of course they can, but I just feel that what you do with it is much more important than what it is. It seems easy for people to blame the toy when things aren't going right and then there are people who seem to be ETERNALLY searching for EXACTLY the right magical tool that will send their dogs over the top. I often find myself out & about with my dogs & no toy. Grass, leaves, bark...and my all time dependable, an empty smoke packet ..they all work, just as well as any tug or ball. I find the same with food, whatever I have seems to achieve the same result from them...even stuff they wouldn't eat if I put it in their food bowl is delicious if it is used in training. I don't do formal "training in drive" so maybe I am missing something & shouldn't even have replied.

Best drive toy? The owner on the other end of whatever is being used.

Thanks for your input everyone...I have been meaning to reply to your post Erny, but need to think about it. I would like to hear further findings on the study you quoted. I took it to be more generic than breed specific, but would like to hear more if you have looked into it further. Of course it can be explore, but there are SO many components that make a dog even workable on stock, I'm just not so sure that chasing shadows or birds is an indicator of one of those components and I don't think it is any more common in a BC than in a lab. Totally agree. Watching a talented dog switch on & do what it was bred to do is without a doubt one of the most amazing things I have ever witnessed in my life. But...the big word in the above sentence is bred to do. It doesn't just generally happen by accident, all the right things need to come together in genetics for a dog to "unfold like a flower". Have a look at this clip...this is pure instinct & breeding, first time on sheep, no training. http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=fS06tDXB80c I don't think there is any instinctive component in agility...but I think that there are genetic traits related to instinct that carry across to agility. I think dogs that are pressure sensitive on stock will often be pressure sensitive in agility & dogs that are bred to biddable to work stock, tend to be often biddable in agility. I know you would never have suggested herding as the only option for a stir crazy BC in a consult...but it just seems to be such a cliche used so often by dog trainers & by people involved in rescue that I wanted to discuss it. In all honesty I think that if the above 2 groups are going to suggest herding as an activity for stir crazy under stimulated dogs, then they should at least make the effort to learn a bit about what they are recommending and also have a look at what happens when things go wrong with dogs that do not have the correct genetics (I have some pretty atrocious photos of this).

I just went searching for a topic on BC Boards...I knew it wouldn't take me long to find an appropriate one, since I am sure this gets discussed a lot. This one raises many of the points I am trying to make...only better http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.p...0drive&st=0