Vickie

I was hoping you would read this thread and I totally agree with all you have written. I guess the key word in the above for me is "workability" and Barb touched on it again here: Herding is a cooperative effort. That trait to work with the handler should be a vital & hard wired part of working stock, without it, they are chasing, just like any other breed could/would. Without any training, on first exposure, if I let my dogs loose in a paddock of sheep (btw this is based on real experience): Noah would chase them in an attempt to bring one down My girls would bring me the sheep Zeus would stand beside me, looking from me to the sheep. Of the 4 dogs, 3 would make it about me & one would forget I existed...guess which one has the compulsive barking, bird/fly chasing potential? I am not saying the other 3 are not capable of compulsive type behaviours, they are. It is this kind of obsessive single minded trait that makes the BC the working dog it is...but their compulsions tend to focus around getting me to do something with them. Nothing, although I would change the word breed to breeding . My problem was not with a suggestion to try herding, it is with the suggestion that a dog is displaying behaviours because of unsatisfied instinct and that herding may actually provide a solution to the problems. As everyone including you have pointed out, there are so many ways & activities to stimulate a dog. I would prefer that trainers did not automatically see BC = working dog = bad behaviour = must need to herd Totally agreed, there are far too many people using sheep as toys, either chasing titles or determined to prove that their dog can do what it's heritage suggests it should.

I wanted to start another topic on this rather than continue in the other thread Sure .... and you did good :p. Don't know that I could do any better and I'm a bit rushed at the moment so pardon me if what I write reflects that. Basically, Vicki - the activity (eg. herding) which is based in raw instinct helps 'balance' the mind of a dog otherwise troubled in instances where the dog is frantically looking for something else but not achieving it. This is where things such as chasing shadows; manic digging; and other potentially obsessive behaviours can stem from and they increase in an ever spiralling upwards manner because although those latter activities might quell the dog's frustration for the moment, they don't achieve the satisfaction it seeks so it keeps trying .... for the want of not being able to or knowing what else to do. Firstly, I totally agree that a bored, destructive or stir crazy dog needs stimulation and training to help channel that energy into something positive. I think this applies to most if not all breeds. but...I always wonder why destructive behaviour/s that any breed can & do exhibit are often automatically labelled as a need to fulfill a herding drive/instinct if the dog happens to be a working breed. It is no secret that I belive that there is a huge difference between working breed & working bred. For instance, as a behaviouralist, would you give the same advice to the owner of a herding breed such as a corgi or a malinios displaying the same behaviours, that you would a BC? There are lots of BC's that have a high drive & inability to settle. They can also come with obsessive type behaviours such as barking at nothing, fly chasing and can be quite happy to entertain themselves in destructive behaviours. It is my opinion that these dogs are generally not suitable nor are they going to benefit from herding training. I would classify my Noah as a perfect example. The very things that make him prone to these weird behaviours if unstimulated, would also make him unsuitable as a working dog. He would be happy to be alone & entertain himself, his lack of appropriate drive to work "with" me would be a problem in herding. He has a high prey drive, also inappropriate, since herding requires a truncated prey drive...and he has absolutely no natural ability whatsoever. I was always told that his temperament was that of a working bred dog & he needed to work. Now that I am spending a lot of time with working dogs & learning more & more all the time, I see that nothing could be further from the truth. I am not saying that none of these dogs have an ability to progress in herding, I am sure some do, but too often I hear people hanging on to, "oh my dog is a working dog" as an excuse for behaviours that many other breeds exhibit. Some people try herding, some progress, some don't. Some give up because their dogs obviously lack ability & some keep going week after week, determined that they will make it work b/c someone told them their dog needed it. Often in this case, the dogs end up suffering & so do the sheep. As more & more people start to breed working breeds for sports or for nothing in particular, these dogs that are over the top will continue to increase...but I don't think you can say that they are working dogs whose drive will be satisfied by herding. They will retain aspects of ability & instinct...but herding is not like agility where any dog can do it given enough training. JMO. I would love to hear some discussion from behaviouralists/trainers theories & experiences & also from those who work stock with their dogs.

Thank you both. As a BC owner & someone who works dogs on sheep regularly, I have some questions/problems about/with these theories, despite the fact that they seem to be public opinion. I have to go out for a while but would love to discuss this further in another thread when I get back.

can you explain this a little more pls Erny

BITCH! Post it up...there is some seriously amazing talent on here, I am sure someone will have some ideas.

What a great idea! I love learning from threads like this. Luke, your perfume shot is a total work of art, I love it. Here's a fun one I just did for something different. I used this as the background, after altering the contrast a bit and then used a layer mask to take out the blue sky on this one and copied it & placed it so it looked like she was looking at the pelican Then cropped.

WOW, that is a lot of things for a 12 week old pup. Rather than starting new tricks, I would focus on proofing the ones you already have. There are lots of variations on every basic trick & some such as the recall are really important to have in any situation. eg does she do all these tricks in any environment? in the house? in the back yard? at a quiet park? with other dogs around? will she do them if you are right in front of her? 2 steps away? 5 steps away? will she do them on verbal command? hand signal? both? either? How quick is her response time to each command?

I guess it depends on how you look at it. IMO, a far better option, as leader of the pack, would be to prevent the dog having to be in this situation in the first place.

That is OUTRAGEOUS! Of course they are responsible. Best wishes for your little ones. I hope it's OK, but I am going to I post this (not the place, just the situation) on another forum as a warning.

Great shots! Luke I love your glasses with the shadows, colours & textures, they are really cool. Love the little chair too . Tadpole, your food colouring is really cool too. I had a play with that last year, was great fun, very messy, but great fun. I have been slack, I guess this could be my toy entry...since I happened to take it today.

I totally agree. I don't think it is a weird behaviour at all. Some dogs don't like people, strangers or not, right in their face & why should they? If one human did that to another, there would be a response. We would find it unacceptable. I think most dogs find it unacceptable too. 3 of my dogs would be uncomfortable with this (if you did it to the other, you would get a big wet lick!). Only one of them would grumble, but since all 3 would be uncomfortable with it, I don't allow people to do it to any of them. To me it'd be no different & just as invasive if I let someone sit there & poke my dog.

Got one!!! I can be very persuasive I just spoke to her & she knows you. I will PM you her email address so you can swap details.

I just had a look at the list. I can't see anyone looking for a 4 or 500 novice partner. There is a 300 cavalier who may still be looking. I can email them & see if they are still looking & would be able to do 400? Just had another thought...I have a friend with a 500 BC. I'm sure she's going but probably didn't enter pairs. I will give her a call & talk her into it

I'm happy to put a notice on Agility Aust for you Mrs D. Otherwise the address is : http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Agility-Australia/ if you want to join (probably a good idea). Most people will have their entries in for ADC by now I would think...

The only problem I have with stick in the ground is that if you have a dog who touches them when they weave (as I suspect Kaos will, given his size & power), they end up slanted, so you have to keep resetting them. Trim can do them all day & they won't move. Shine does them once & & need to straighten them again as they offset. Zeus does them once & they get so slanted they are nearly horizontal You also have to measure each time...which is not a huge issue as you can mark a rope. I want poles with a metal base. The other thing is that if you train on stick in poles, there will be am adjustment period to train on competition poles (with a base and less give) for some dogs.

I used PS Elements. There are heaps of ways to do it, I picked a quick one. I just duplicated the layer, changed the mode to screen, adjusted the opacity a bit. I then put a mask on & masked out the water so that it was back to it's original exposure. I like PossumCorners water better than the original.

Leopuppy, are you talking about your dog? or just talking in the generic sense? In the generic sense, I think most of the dogs I see who are stressed in the ring are picking up from the handler. I have been chatting to someone recently, I have seen her training videos & the dog flies, full of confidence & well trained. When they get into the ring, the dog has moments of brilliance, but generally ends up losing focus & sniffing. It is 100% related to the handlers vibes in a trial. I can literally see the dog saying "OMG, what is going on? why is she screeching at me & being so tentative, I don't know where to go." Having a dog that is not overly rewarded by food or toys is going to be an issue for most teams. How can you communicate what is right? At a recent seminar I went to, the presenter said something very simple. "This gets rewarded, this does not". I am lucky enough to have dogs who will do agility enthusiastically with no promise of external reward...but...in training, I want to reward everything I see that is correct. That is how I able able to get it repeated. I think if I had a dog who was not overly interested in rewards, I would spend my time changing that, so that I had a tool to use. Another simple but useful tip I got from another seminar was this "I don't push my dogs for speed. Speed comes with experience & trust." The way I interpret this is that speed will come when your handling is consistent, so that every time you do abc you are asking the dog for the same thing & it will be rewarded for that. Sometimes you see people who have the same signal & it actually means a couple of different thing. It seems clear in the handlers mind, but the dog is never really sure which it means. Another question I regularly ask people in training is "tell me in your dogs words, what he thinks his job is here". Often they get half way through a response & realise that the dog doesn't really know. Contacts are often a great example of this.

WOW, I feel so slack, I haven't even attempted any of these yet & am just having my first look at everyone's amazing work today. Great shots everyone! both technically and imaginatively (if that's a word ;) ) I did buy nice biscuits...but I ate them Will try & do something today.

Here you go, this is a bit better. nice pic! which beach did you go to?

Hi Colleen, this is how I started. I took my male dogs out to a club many years ago to have them assessed. Reports were not good & I took the advice to wait until I had a dog with more natural talent & instinct before I took up herding. Four years later, I got Trim & started my next experience herding with her breeder. It was fabulous to be able to learn from an experienced & knowledgeable person who knew exactly what to do to give her the best possible start. We started slowly, once at 6mths, once at 9 mths, once at 12mths. I had the great experience of learning myself by working her other trained dogs while she worked Trim. From 12 months, I took her there a bit more often but as it was a 4 hour drive, not as often as I would have liked. It was like nothing I had ever done with a dog before and the icing on the cake was that I got that talented dog that I had waited for. By this stage I was totally hooked and wanted to do this more regularly. I joined a couple of clubs & off we went each weekend. We had a different instructor each week with a different method & a different level of experience. I diligently tried everything that was suggested to me & things started to fall apart, resulting in a very confused dog & handler. I still took her back to her breeder as often as I could & she tried to fix the bad habits I had been letting Trim develop. After a while it just all got too hard, I knew I was slowly but surely ruining my talented little dog & we pretty much stopped alltogether. Recently we have started again. I now have Shine from the same breeder & she is looking like she will be equally as talented. I am not in a position to take them to their breeder anymore so I have picked someone close to me whose dogs & methods I have admired for a long time & they have agreed to help me. So far, so good. Trim is looking like the dog she started out as again & Shine has only learnt one way right from the beginning. I am starting to feel quite confident & the times where I know what to do without needing to be told are increasing all the time. I am not sure exactly what you were asking in your question but I hope my experiences will help you think about what you want from your dogs. Working sheep with my dogs is one of the most rewarding things I have ever done. I hope you find it that way too. Vickie

of course she can...mine wants to have a go too. It just means you can't get someone else's photo off the internet & post it.

I have been slack keeping up with this. (I never even managed a shoe shot ) CM, I LOVE your entries. The skateboard & shoes idea was fantastic & very effective. DA, I love your reflected forks as well. They are really well done with nice contrast.

Rules: There are 3 objects, common to most households or easy/cheap to buy. You can choose any one object or all 3, either individually or together. Each photo posted in this thread must come with a description of how you did it & EXIF data. The photo/s must be taken by the person posting it. You cannot use old photos you may have of the objects, they must be taken for the challenge. You can submit as many entries as you like. Photos can, but don't have to include dogs Images can be edited using photoshop etc,. Challenge runs for 1 week & ends Thursday 25th September 3pm. There is no winner, just a bunch of people having fun & learning new techniques/ideas. Challenge 2 Items: 1. Tap 2. Biscuit 3. Remote Control Post away!

I've never heard of that one before. Sounds like a great idea. My arm up actually means stop, but I like the concept of a visual signal as well.

I LOVE this one kja I agree, looks like it belongs in a catalogue, very professional!