Vickie

Riverstar, I'm certainly no behaviouralist (and I agree that if you possible can, seeing one would only help), but I would approach this a different way. One of my favourite sayings that I have learnt from others is "Be proactive, not Reactive". What I mean by this is that rather than trying to deal with this behaviour as & when it occurs on your walks, it might be a better idea to actually set something up where you can control the environment. Right now, the other dog/s & it's/their proximity is a variable that you cannot control. I am suggesting finding a friends non reactive dog, rather than a heap of dogs, where you can control the distance & reward with whatever it takes (and by this I mean if it takes a whole leg of lamb, then it's worth it) to win his attention before he starts to "Go Off". A tennis ball would be fine if that's his thing, but again, it would need to happen in a controlled environment, since he has to "get it" rather than be bribed by it (which may decrease it's value) & this would not be practical on the footpath. This way you can gradually reduce the his reactive distance with success. I'm happy to be corrected by those more experienced but these were my initial thoughts.

have PM'd you.

It's a TIN FOIL vote from me...at least in relation to herding breeds. Tony, you will find lots of discussions on this very topic over the last couple of years. This one is my favourite: http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?show...5890&st=210 especially the part on page 15 where one of our "special DOL Breed Standard loyalists" looked at photos I posted of 4 of the most influential dogs in BC history & when asked for comparison to the standard, described 3 of them as "Boarding house stew" and the other "sorta resembling a BC". I think lots of people NEED to believe in the breed standards, it's all they have in place of any functional experience. I don't think any/many of them actually believe that fitting the standard assures correct breed functionality & I know a number of them who openly state they don't care. Breed standards are one thing but trends & interpretations IMO are doing just as much damage. Reading the BC standard, I find the Chracteristics quite misleading & recently gave an example of one of my older dogs who fits the standard perfectly, right down to "Its keen, alert and eager expression add to its intelligent appearance, whilst its loyal and faithful nature demonstrates that it is at all times kindly disposed towards stock"...LOL, except that although he is faithful & loyal, it certainly DOES NOT demonstrate that he is "kindly disposed towards stock". Then there are other areas that mean absolutely nothing:"Any aspect of structure or temperament foreign to a working dog is uncharacteristic." What does such a general statement even mean? I could have the body of an athlete ( I don't) but it would not give me what I need to excel in any athletic event. I believe just like breeds, a balanced combination of the physical & the mental is what gives any person or dog the ability to perform a function well. Believing this, it is very hard for me to accept a breed standard as proof of function, since 90% is related to the physical. It's just not balanced and in herding breeds I see proof of it's failure every week.

This line reminded me of something...I know a couple of breeders whose general opinion/practice is not to go overboard with a heap of socialisation & training with any dog who will be bred from for it's first couple of years. The purpose of this is so that they can, as close as practical, see the raw genetics they are breeding. It's kind of like they are testing them by not testing them if that makes sense. I also think it's entirely possible for a dog to grow up with very little exposure to the world & still bounce out solid as a rock. I have see a few working dogs like this, grow up on isolated farms, never been in a car or met a heap of people & just take everything in their stride when faced with it. They have also produced progeny with the same ability. To me, this is good genetics but I realised will be frowned upon by some & not practical for others.

Thank You

Have you done a vet check?

I just remembered this thread & thought I'd add some training I am starting with Shine as well. Thanks for all your nice comments, Trim is my ultimate in agility attitude & Shine looks like she's heading the same way. I am so proud of them. Tollersowned, we used the 3 pole clicker method. I will use this for Shine as well but I think (we haven't started yet) I will also do offset poles with her at the same time.

Why do you ask Laffi? I don't expect that my dogs will be prone to any weaving injuries. I don't start them until they are mature. I don't do extreme repetitive training. I have exercises that I do to keep their spines supple. I warm them up before starting. This sounds bizarre, but one injury I have considered a possibility with Trim is a broken tail. I have seen it wrapped around a pole a couple of times in photos. Not sure what on earth I could do about preventing it though?

Hi Tony, it just occurred to me that I read your question & kind of went off on a tangent with thoughts that popped into my mind as I read it. I'm wondering if you can elaborate on the above? I think I know what you mean in general terms but am interested in what your thoughts are on how we as a culture can/should go about making some changes in order to catch up. Are there examples that are obvious to you of things we have got totally wrong? Are you speaking in terms of the way dogs sort things out amongst themselves or they way they learn, both? neither? Do you think we as humans get worse with each successive generation? How do we change the future? I'm interested in hearing more of your own thoughts about this. LOL, so often you ask such great questions for others to consider, but I suspect you have a lot of very enlightening ideas/thoughts/experiences and rather than babble writing my opinions, my time would be better spent reading yours. Vickie

I think this ties in a lot with your other thread Tony. People are analysing every aspect of their dogs behaviour because they now know "enough" to consider the theory & buzz words they have read/heard but not enough to apply it. Or as I suspect is often the case, have had a go at applying it & screwed it up, creating real problems where there were none. Definitely, but in reality I think it probably evens out & even has some positives. If not for these threads, things would not get addressed & discussed thoroughly. Even ridiculous statements serve a purpose b/c they can be (and as we know always are )debated & usually proven incorrect by those who know what they are talking about. It is not hard to see who knows what they are talking about & who doesn't and teh fools tend to discredit themselves pretty quickly without any help whatsoever. I think those who have the knowledge to do so, do a great job passing it across on DOL and most people with issues, genuine or not are generally given some great advice. Fuller discussions also impact the hundreds of lurkers who may read a post & think "oh, that is exactly the problem I am having". So while I can see what you are saying, I can see positives here too. I try to see the glass as half full

Hi Erny, while I agree with everything you are saying, I guess part of my point is about the options people now have to label their dogs. It seems often people feel the need to place dogs in one of 3-4 categories & each category has a specific way that it should be dealt with. I think there are more variations than this. I think my grandfather dealt with things as he saw them, without overanalysing or anthromorphising. He didn't look into why his dogs performed every behaviour they did & his interactions weren't tainted by these thoughts. I can also compare this to the way my 8 year old daughter interacts with my dogs. Without too much knowledge, she is black & white & all my dogs are a lot more willing to take a command from her than my husband for instance. I have noticed that if we have a dog staying with us who is a little timid, it is my daughter that makes a connection quickly. She does not tread quietly, she is just herself & the dogs respond. It is a lesson for me to watch & learn from her. I am trying to apply what I know constantly, she is just herself. I see the same thing happening with parenting Lables like "ADHD" in children. My gut feeling is that this is a term used far too often by people unqualified to use it and the course of the childs life is changed as a result. It is easy to excuse so much when you have a label to apply to it and the nurture side of the equation changes accordingly. Likewise the word "gifted" has a whole set of similar issues surrounding it. Noit sure if I have explained myself any better and as I said I certainly agree with everything you have said but was trying to make a more specific point.

An interesting question Tony. I sometimes think we have learnt too much. I look at the way my grandfather trained & lived with his his dogs & everything seemed so black & white & so much easier for them. Aggression was never discussed, nor was dominance, there was no cheerleading or BIG motivational techniques. What the dogs did was either right or wrong. If it was wrong they didn't repeat it too often. I sometimes wonder if all this knowledge is really doing us (or more importantly the dogs) any good? Having knowledge is one thing but knowing how to apply it seems a totally different thing alltogether. There seem to be so many qualified dog trainers around these days...all the theory in the world but with so little experience. Honestly I think the average person is better staying out of dog psychology, their chances of getting it right are pretty slim IMO & I think they can often do more harm than good. Writing this makes me think about a mistake I made. I gave my husband a book to read on dog training. Before that he didn't interfere too much with my dogs. After it, he felt qualified to start interfering with their pack order. I had to put a stop to it quick smart. I have never interfered with my dogs order, they are more than capabale of sorting it out & we have never had issues, not have I ever felt sorry for the lowest in the pack. With my husbands "help" I could quickly see issues beginning to arise. Now I just tell him to stay out of it ;) & we have harmony once again.

I think the day I say I can't improve my handling/training is the day I will give up training dogs as it will mean I have lost all perspective.

Sounds like you had a great time. The photos look great. She looks very settled & so do the sheep Who is the instructor?

It depends on the dog, it's fitness & the activity. I have seen a number of dogs continue at the same level for the first 3-4 weeks & then slow down a bit. Often the dog will tell you when it's time.

He's very cute! Looks like he has HEAPS of energy. My dog does agility Strategic Pairs with 2 Labradoodles, they look very similar to your boy. They are both really great agility dogs & trained very well.

Here is one of my little Spiderman & his trusty sidekick A bit of a rushed job, but not too bad

They are awesome Dogsong, you have a great eye .

I am not PDTS, but I have known her for a number of years now & can assure you there is nothing "in vogue" about her. In fact I would say just the opposite in some cases...where some things she taught/told me many years ago are just now becoming "the only way". I have always found her to be a very balanced trainer, not purely positive, but mostly positive and willing to do what it takes to fix a problem with the dogs best interest first & foremost. One of the things I have always admired the most is her uncanny ability to be able to accurately assess each situation individually & come up with a successful tailored plan to suit. Anyway, she is also pretty tough skinned & hardly needs me to stand up for her, but an objective opinion is always useful & I had to laugh when I read this question, so couldn't resist giving my view.

Great reply, very comprehensive, I think you have said it all

I voted option 2 as well. Although there are a couple of toys that are either not attractive or too precious to risk with certain members of my crew. Sometimes I will play with a toy with more than one dog, but again, not the precious ones. Mine don't get protective about their toys so I don't see any reason to do differently. I also think it can be effective when one dog is aware that another is playing with a special toy and can increase the value of the toy. I am also reluctant to use toys with all 4. As the boys get older I worried about them getting crashed or hurt during the enthusiasm.

Thanks Tassie OMG this is SO much of my problems as a handler. So long as I don't start thinking we will usually run clean. Unfortunately for Trim, I think far too often. I am trying so hard to overcome it. I often find myself half way around a course that we are running clean & think "oh, that was a nice turn" or "will have to work on getting that a bit better at training next week". And that's it. Once I have disconnected, I have lost the ability to have split the second timing on my commands & handling that I need to run her. I'm sure if she could, Trim would slap me but the filthy look she usually gives me is puishment enough. The good news is that I am getting better, just not quickly enough.

Hi Tony, I think many of the answers to your questions lie in how your training is set up. Don't be too hard on yourself, the hardest thing in the world is being a novice handler with a novice dog. What are your most common problems? What stage are you up to? Are you running sequences? How many obstacles? Do you walk the sequences first without your dog? If you make a handling error, what is your strategy to fix it? Do you have a "go on" command? An "out"? Are you comfortable with your footwork for a front & rear cross? Have you worked out what your dog's commitment point to an obstacle is? Lots of questions... IMO, most people start sequencing too early. They repeat mistakes over & over again, without ever stopping to work out why they happened & how to fix them. The best agility instruction I have ever received was INCREDIBLY frustrating...at first. We would plan to work a sequence & then something right at the beginning would go wrong. That was it, for the rest of the lesson, that is what we worked on, nothing else & we proofed it in every way possible. Yes, it was frustrating, but boy did it improve us as a team b/c we never had to deal with that issue again. As time went by, we were able to cross more & more of thise things off the list, till teh day we could go out to work a sequence & actually had all the tools required to do it. I am still learning & each dog presents new challenges. That's what makes it so fun

ummm ;) Can we see some video of that? :rolleyes: PLEEEAAAASSSSE

That is SO COOL! You have the best imagination Harminee...and great talent too.