Vickie

An EXCELLENT POST PF :rolleyes: Yes! I have raised this point a number of times. You can't fake it. The dogs see right through it. I see lots of people who fake play, they are physically doing it, but you can tell their mind is somewhere else. I also see this a lot with rewarding. When I come out of the ring with my dog, I frequently give people the "bugger off" look when they come immediately to talk to me. That is OUR time for a couple of minutes where nothing else exists but the 2 of us. It is a continuation of what we have done in the ring...part of the process. I wouldn't chat to people while I'm running & won't while I'm rewarding either. Anyway PF, where the hell have you been? Geez ;) anyone would think you have a life outside DOL ;)

I think technically she has an eighth of Trim's pedigree? LOL, so yes sort of, although they are bred very differently. She looks cute. I hope she becomes everything you dream she will be. It is so much fun getting a puppy & making plans for their/your future.

Thanks 2tollers ;) that looks so cute, very well done & great idea. You gave me an idea...

I don't do any of it. If I ask my dogs to do something I make sure it happens, but I don't ask them just for the sake of asserting my dominance. I think often you can do more harm than good with these type of programs. I may ask them to sit before their food, but if I do, it's an opportunity for a training session rather than asserting myself as a leader. Most of what I do with my dogs we do as a team, we trust each other & we each have a part to play in being successful.

L&L, I think it depends on how confident you are as a trainer. There are plenty of us who have young children who start our pups tugging at 8 weeks. I have not had a problem with this & it works for me. If YOU do not feel YOU have the necessary experience & skills to do this, or have any doubts then you are probably better off not doing it. And if you have no need to use tug for training purposes, then why bother?

KitKat, I guess it depends how important it is to you for him to be quiet. Trim used to literally scream (not bark) her head off as a puppy whenever I trained the boys. I HAD to do something about it, people thought she was being murdered. Before taking her back to training, I did some training at home, tied to her to the clothesline, worked a dog right in front of her & was close enough to correct her instantly. I hyped the other dog right up, so that I could be sure to get a response out of her. I used a waterspray & although I wouldn't recommend it for all dogs, it worked perfectly & only took a few very strong corrections paired with a verbal to get the message through. The verbal I used was a word I don't use in every day language & was one saved especially for her tantrums. I must confess, now that I am starting to train Shine, I need to repeat the whole process. Shine is fine in a covered crate, but if she can see, she does the same. I think it's important to decide what you will do & do it straight away, the longer you take him & let this behaviour continue, the harder it will be to stop it. I also think it's VERY important to train it at home first, then in an empty park, then a busy park before you take it to training. I know lots of people won't agree with the correction, but IMO, a couple of strong corrections are much kinder than years of nagging (like I did with my boys). JMO.

well it only works if that's the only time he pulls

My latest favourite shot of Trim on sheep...any efforts/ideas for a sheepy background? Also one I photoshopped

Here's a cockatoo I did today. I don't like the background but it's kind of a cool shot. It was actually flying across the ground & I was standing over top of it. and another one if anyone wants to have a play with it

Harminee, that footprints one is absolutely gorgeous! What sort of pics are you after? LOL, with over 30 000 high res. photos on my computer, I'm sure I can find pretty much whatever you want .

Well done Tracey, that's a great result, especially since you haven't had her long.

An interesting thread... My 2 cents for what it's worth... I agree with PDTS, making sure you teach them to play separately first can be very important, especially in certain pack dynamics. I also have no problem using food to teach play & have done this with 2 of my dogs. It is basic premack principle & definitely works for many types of dogs. I also taught one of mine who had no interest in balls/play a formal retrieve using food & then progressed that into play. Now he's a ball/tug mad demon I tug with 3 of my 4 dogs. One I don't feel can cope with it emotionally but the others love it. I also live in a house with small children. They (the children) had been taught from day one that they are to seek my approval before ANY games with MY dogs. I think the above is brilliant Tony! If only more people understood what you are trying to say. Along similar lines, I see a lot of people who are into the new craze of "Training in Drive". Personally I think some of them are confusing the hell out of their dogs. Sometimes I think they are doing things the wrong way round by overcontrolling their dogs from day one & then wondering why the dog won't get hyped (something they have never been allowed to do) when they decide to train in drive . Don't get me wrong, control is good, but I think you can use play to get control, it is much harder to get play from control. Hope that makes sense. At the end of the day, I think you need to decide what you want out of your dogs & do whatever works for you. I know people see Trim & I walk (she drags me) to the start line in agility & wonder how on earth I will ever control her in the ring. I know she could walk in at heel, but I want her to want it so bad that she is dragging me to get there. And she does. Personally I don't care what others think, we do what works for us. If I had trouble keeping her on course I might do things differently.

Here's one I just finished of my old boy Noah...not looking so old.

Just remembered I did this one as well

DITTO to that! Some awesome work & great pics. I haven't done much lately, have been busy taking pics. Here is one I did yesterday, the most detailed extraxtion I have done so far. It's not perfect, but I just can't look at it anymore.

OK I have just read the whole thread & see that many others have raised the point I was trying to make...that in dog sports, a lot of what your dogs drives appear to be is dependent on how you train. I am not saying that there are not different levels of drives in different dogs, but to compare a performance in agility vs obed. in the same dog, I think comes down to 2 things, how you have trained each & which may be more naturally rewarding for the dog. I would say Trim & Noah are both high drive & Zeus moderately high, but all are extremely different dogs for agility. All are fast but I trained them differently & they are different dogs with different drives. High drive in the generic sense does not necessarily make a good sports dog (as evidenced by Noah ). If I had had the skills back then, who knows, maybe he would have been as successful as Zeus. For future reference, I don't think you can see a lot in an 8 week old puppy that will give you the answers. That wasn't my point. I think your best bet in choosing the right drives for dogs sports is to look for patterns that you like in related dogs. I don't think you need to analyse too much what those drives are made up of, because like it or not you will interfere with them. Lots of people equate high drive/want a dog that you can drill all day & they will never give up, while I have this in Trim, my goal is not to use it, it is to train smarter, not harder. Noah in his day would chase swallows all day, he would never give up, yes it was high drive, but not a drive that was useful to me.

I have lots of thoughts...just not sure how to put them into words. Here's question though...if Ness arrived on your doorstep tomorrow as an 8 week old puppy again, do you think your perception of her drives in agility & obedience would be different after the same number of years of training? The 2 of you have been through a lot with regards to training in both. I think your questions are really more relevant to how you undertook this journey, rather than any inherent drives she has.

I think we have learnt that dogs behaviour is a combination of genetics & environment. As time goes by we (as humans) are changing both these aspects of the species. Through our selective breeding we are changing the makeup of dogs both physically & emotionally. Attributing human emotions to a dog can only be a bad thing. Dogs are dogs & think very differently to us & lots of people find it hard to accept this. I don't think they have the complex reasoning ability that many people seem to think they have. In reality, I think the answer is Yes. I don't think this necessarily should be the answer but I don't see how we could go back either. We do own our dogs & what they do IS dependent on what we wish. They serve many purposes both as companions and as workers, but I do not see how they could exist now if not for their dependence on us & ours on them. I think we have a lot to learn from dogs, but don't really subscribe to the "higher purpose thing" (I never believe in that kind of stuff). Saying that, my dogs have taught me a lot about being a better (human) parent, I am learning to dedicate myself to a task to achieve goals, I am learning that subtlety is often more effective than the alternative. I want to be as forgiving as my dogs and I envy them their ability to judge character. I want to take simple joy in simple things as they do & not overthink everything. I would love to live my life with the same set of basic rules that they do theirs. I got my dogs as companions. I like to train & compete in sports/activities with them & they like it too. I try to do the best I can for them in terms of nutrition, physical & mental needs. No I don't think a dog knows what is right for me in general terms, but I do think they are more perceptive about us than we give them credit for. Hope this makes sense, it's a very philosophical set of questions.

I generally train at the heights my dogs will jump in competition. Occasionally higher, occasionally lower. I don't start my dogs on lower heights & increase them gradually. I wait until they are ready physically to jump & then start them at the height they will jump. I also teach them to jump, stride, collect & turn over a jump before running sequences with them.

FANTASTIC NEWS Crazydog! I am so glad that everything is turning around for you guys. Well done to you & Pinnacle DTS for the effort you have put in. Life will be so much easier for all of you. Can we have pics of your happy girl?

I thought since this question comes up a lot, we could start a thread & update it with details throughout Aust. If anyone wants to add their club, I will update. SYDNEY Agility Dog Club NSW - Castle Hill Showground - Thursday nights - 7.30-9.00pm http://www.agility.org.au/ Northern Suburbs DTC - St Ives Showground - Saturday afternoons and Monday nights Nthn Suburbs website PICSI - Dan Mahoney Oval, Parramatta - Friday nights - http://picsi.org.au/ Canine Fun Sports - St. Ives showground - Tuesday & Friday mornings - Adv. 9am, Inter. 10am, Beg. 11am Castlereagh days by appointment group & privates http://caninefunspor...om.au/index.htm Hawkesbury Dog Agility Club - John Moroney Correction Centre, South Windsor - Wednesday nightsWww.hawkesburyagility.com Manly DTC - Deep Creek Dog Training Reserve, Narrabeen - Saturday mornings - 9.00 am http://www.northernb....au/agility.htm Springwood District Dog Training Club Lomatia Park, Springwood Monday 7pm, new beginners intake first Monday each month. Website -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- QUEENSLAND Brisbane East & Southern Suburbs Brisbane Agility Dog Club Inc (BAD) Training at Clem Jones Centre- Cricket Oval, Zahel St, Carina Wednesday Nights 6:30 - 7:30 Beginners/ Intermediate, 7:30 - 8:30 Seniors www.badclub.org.au Brisbane Western Suburbs & Ipswich Agility Dog Club of Queensland Inc(ADCQ) Train at Musketeers Sports Grounds, Church St, Tivoli Sunday Afternoons www.adcq.com.au Brisbane Northern Suburbs, Caboolture, Sunshine Coast, Pine Rivers Suncoast Fundogs Agility Dog Club Inc (SCFD) Train at Old AFL Grounds, Beerburrum Rd, Caboolture Tuesday Nights from 6:30pm www.suncoastfundogs.org.au Pine Agility Dog Sports Club (PADS) Train at South Pine Sports Assoc Grounds, South Pine Rd, Eatons Hill Monday Nights from 7pm- Beginners/Intermediate Thursday Nights from 7pm- Seniors Sat Mornings- Pre Agility and Obedience www.pads.org.au Gold Coast, Tweed and Logan Wild About Agility Gold Coast (WAAG) Train at James Overall Park, Brighton Pde, Southport Monday Evenings from 7pm www.waagagility.net Fraser Coast/ Wide Bay Burnett Fraser Coast Agility Dog Club (FCAD) Train at Maryborough Tuesday Nights from 6:30pm Wednesday Nights - Puppy Preschool email- [email protected] Bundaberg Dog Sports Club inc (BDS) Train at Bundaberg Showgrounds, Burrum St Bundaberg Tuesday and Sunday Nights from 6:30pm email- [email protected] FAR North Queensland, Townsville Townsville Outdoor Agility Dog Sports ( TOADS) email- [email protected] - [email protected]

I agree, people don't know that their dogs are overweight. My dogs were overweight (for agility) years ago when I started, people told me & I fixed it. The 2 most common excuses I hear are: We went to the vet last week & they said my dog's weight is perfect and This is the weight I need for the showring and how could I forget...the best of the lot: "but I feed exactly what it says on my (premium) bag of dog food...oh, and a bone or 2 a day...oh, and table scaps/leftovers...oh, and training treats..."

I never hesitate to tell people that their dog is overweight. I try to be tactful, but denial is a very common response from some, others seem to take it on board & make it their business to bring their dog up to me each week so I can have a feel . I will not let a dog that is overweight jump & give them other exercises to do instead. I am noticing a few dogs competing lately who I think are either lame or truly getting past it. This I find the saddest. They are not newcomers who know no better & I don't think there is any excuse for it. I was very pleased at the last trial I went to, to see a judge actually stop a dog running & speak to the handler about the physical difficulty it was having running. This is in the rules, judges are entitled to do this & I fully support it.

I like a combination as well & think it works for most people for many of the reasons you have listed. Personally, if I had a behavioural issue of a moderately serious nature, I would go straight for private lessons as I would want it fixed ASAP. I also think it's possible in a group/club situation where the experience of the instructors vary, that things can get worse instead of better. For agility, both as a student & a teacher, I like to do a combination of both. Privates are good as: I want to be able to recognise an issue & deal with it fully there & then without disrupting the rest of the class. There is flexibility to change the lesson if needed. Some people learn better when they are not worried about others watching, especially in the early stages when they are learning to motivate their dogs & can feel self conscious. Groups are good as: There is a necessary downtime between exercises where the dogs need a break & more can be covered. They provide great opportunities to see a variety of issues, that students may need to draw on later. Some people run better when others are watching (the opposite of the self conscious ones).