Steve

Of course they hold themselves apart and distinct in promoting pure breeds as the only responsible ethical choice .If they didn't believe it they wouldn't breed them .Why on earth would you expect them to consider what they do equal to and not better than what others do ? It is them that are feeling their choices are being eroded ,them that are feeling under attack and people who don't have a clue what it takes to consistently generation after generation breed dogs which are predictable,well temperament ed and which are tested and surveyed and scored and prodded and poked to try to make every generation healthier than the last others don't have to agree with them or want to do what they do but surely you aren't asking that they let people in who have a radically different philosophy and pretend they see them as equals to get bums on seats? If you want to join a club you either have the same interests and beliefs or you start your own club or join a different club - that's what I did - and if some clubs weren't seen to be better than others by different people why would we need them?

I understand you feel its the same issue and I agree there are issues which need to be addressed separately and that of course each will impact but I think you miss the main issue and misunderstand what a breed club's purpose is. Some people will feel they are being alienated all groups will feel the need to justify and promote themselves over any other - thats the way of the world not just the dog world . They don't need to find and work with common ideals because those who have traditionally been involved in breed clubs already have common ideals .They breed and show a breed of purebred dogs ,they see themselves as the guardians of their particular breed. Some may be better business people, have more energy or time and encourage pet owners , have fun days, do a bit better at promotion etc etc but the basic core of a purebred breed club is the betterment and maintenance of the breed. Like it or not it is all about pedigrees and dog shows and closed gene pools and health and testing etc and its why I'm never likely to have another go at joining one but that doesnt mean I dont appreciate the need for them or the service they provide to their breed. I know what turns people away - it turned me away but its a numbers game . If there are less breeders, less people showing, less puppies being bred less people passionate enough for a breed to look outside their own back yard and work for it generally and less main register dogs available to enable new people to have a go then there are less likely to be suited to the job. What to do about the bigger picture is needing to be addressed as well but to start with we need more purebred breeders breeding more purebred dogs and selling them to more people on main register.

If you want more bums on seats for pedigree dogs you have have a higher ideal. There ARE too many dangerous,nuisance dogs.Too many unplanned or poor planned litters with no ready homes or not suitable to be homed,and homes that shouldn't even consider a dog. They don't come from backyard breeders OR pedigree breeders, or DD breeders,petshop or cross breeders. They come from a community ill prepared to make choices in the best interest of mans 1st true companion species,with the ideal of KEEPING them a true companion species. That higher ideal is very complimentary to pedigree breeders. I think you would find the biggest voices promoting cross breeding are commercial interests and their audience. Pure breeds,historicaly sell themselves,or wouldn't be here but theres more to that higher ideal than pedigrees.Pedigree alone doesn't allow for that ideal. While you deny that,you are not in a position to mentor or engage the community who so badly need it. Purebreeds still sell themselves and this isnt about higher ideals its about common ideals. It isnt about what is wrong with the community or where other dogs come from should or should not come from. They are whole other issues .This is about purebreds and pedigrees and dog shows and the need to realise the errors in limiting gene pools, and making it so difficult for new people to buy a purebred main register dog who may become passionate enough about the breed to have a go. Stop expecting so much from them - its not their job to take on the bloody ills of society and the wombats who want to breed cross bred or any other dog. Its not their job to educate people on responsible dog ownership or any other higher ideal .Its enough for them to worry about their own dogs, their own breeds and their own decisions.

You want them to lunge and bark at everything that goes past - its the way they work and keep their charges safe from predators.That one that's standing on the podium would do the same if you took him home to his paddock . Tralee does this dog work at all ?

O.K. Its good that some clubs have branched out a bit and bought in people and their dogs which are not interested in showing and sometimes the breed politics and the egos make it difficult for some to feel they fit in or to feel appreciated . There may be a case for having a club with sub group of those who arent interested in show dogs and are looking to be involved for fun days and social do's etc but the screaming reality is historically breed clubs are supposed to be about a focus on showing especially in breeds that dog have a working purpose. Its the breed club which is expected to communicate with the ANKC regarding issues in the breed - requirements for registrations etc . Ordinary stand alone breed enthusiasts cant communicate with the ANKC and expect much response without the club. Its the breed club which probide info regarding grooming and preparation for showing particular to the breed to new people, its the breed club which is supposed to provide social bonding at ringside and encourage those purchasing a main register dog to have a go and offer advice on breeding etc. Its the breed club and not the ANKC who are responsible for promoting the breed and the benefits of owning one. There is no such thing as a club where everyone is going to get along - some will stay some wont .There is no such thing where everyone feels they are sharing in the work load equally - where some dont feel under appreciated or over worked. The basic structure and methology for selection of office bearers ensures that its a democratic choice and that will sometimes make people feel they have been ganged up on and voted out , and feel they have worked tirelessly for nothing. None of this is anything new or peculiar only to breed clubs. Its the way it is for all clubs Its all well and good to stand back and assume its an endemic problem with the ANKC or whatever your personal belief is about what is wrong with the purebred dog world but its pretty difficult to see much evidence that anything much has changed other than there are less breeders. less being bred and less showing , less who are passionate enough for the future of the breed to put themselves out a bit or put up with someone they dont like much ,less coming into the breed to share the work load and take over when those before them burn out ,less who want to bring any kind of attention on themselves and less who feel like they are seen to be doing something worth while rather than being treated by animal rights loonies as pond scum. We need more good purebred breeders, we need more purebred puppies being bred we need more pats on the back than stabs in the back ,we need a club room of breeders whether they decide to show or not or breed clubs and some breeds will be a thing of the past.

The longest Ive had is 10 hours.

It is still not a good thing to use them for breeding.

You do what you think is best for your dog - its pretty clear that some breeders have taken their education from animal rights rather than from breeders with experience and from canine species related science. In NSW we have a law which says no more than 2 in 2 years but even that says intentionally because everyone who has been around dogs long enough knows dogs like to have sex when they are on heat and sometimes they do what they want. Ive seen a dog mating another dog through a chain link fence .If you decide to go ahead with the litter and they wont register them give me a yell and Ill tell you the alternative. Seriously some of you guys need to get educated ,take notice of canine repo specialists rather than animal rights and stop being so bloody judgmental. edited to ad there is no code or law which says if you have an accidental mating that you have to kill the puppies.

better still go to the media.

Go o the cops they received stolen goods and they could have easily known that if they had done the scans.

So even though this post is 6 months old. who in heck made MDBA God? Why would they want to send MDBA a copy of the pedigree AND post a copy of the pedigree on DOL? Thought you werent allowed to promote the MDBA on DOL. Of course people always have things to learn but I think you overstepped the boundaries in what you have said. MDBA is not the be end and all of everything. according to my vet, the ingredients in some vaccines have very deterimental effects on a puppy health and immune system and its nothing to do with the pups genes. thats where the grey area sneaks in. do we relly think collies and murry grey cattle are defective because they HAVE INTOLERANCE issues with ivermectin? same scenario, different chemical Correct however, as you know if the info is kept and recorded for all of the ancestors sometimes you can see a pattern and work toward preventing any more pups being born which may suffer the same issues.

So even though this post is 6 months old. who in heck made MDBA God? Why would they want to send MDBA a copy of the pedigree AND post a copy of the pedigree on DOL? Thought you werent allowed to promote the MDBA on DOL. Of course people always have things to learn but I think you overstepped the boundaries in what you have said. MDBA is not the be end and all of everything. Bullbreedlover some people want to send the MDBA their pedigrees and their health reports to enable that info to be used for others to be able to have accurate info to profile their pedigrees - considering its voluntary, and free and benefits no one except the dogs its hardly what I would call promoting the MDBA. My post may have read that I was advising her to post the pedigree on dogz but that's not what I meant .My advice is for anyone who has a dog which has a health condition to share that info rather than keeping it quiet to enable others to use the info for what is best for the dogs. Every other organisation, club or group can be mentioned here without the person mentioning them being gagged and censored. I didn't say the MDBA was the be all and end all of everything I told her that the MDBA provides this service to the dog world if she would like to use it.

If the bitch is healthy the third litter wont take any more toll on her than not letting her have the litter. Check with the CC and get it in writing. If it were my dog Id let her have the litter because it is the lessor of the two evils in my opinion assuming of course the CC will allow it.

Sounds like a nomination to me- why not put focus on the breeder who is doing the right thing and nominate them? God knows there is enough of negative crap around about breeders. www.mdbaawards.net.au

Bloody hell I ll remember to read the date next time - but when is a thread too old to post without the analysis of motives happening?

Couple of issues. Firstly chances are you will beat the demodex but what you see is a symptom of an immune system issue. Other immune related issues may show throughout its life. There is no way this dog should be used for breeding and anyone advising you that its good to go for that purpose ever is in desperate need of some quick education. I advise you to post the pedigree of the pup explaining nothing more than the facts . That you purchased the dog and that in the best interests of the breed you are sharing the knowledge that it has demodex. This is stuff that every breeder of that breed could use to work toward health issues being eliminated .If it had won a championship you wouldnt hesitate to share its pedigree so people could use that as something to be aware of in selecting breeding dogs - why would you not do the same for health issues. You dont have to make public the breeder's reaction or similar but until people start sharing this stuff how on earth can we ever take it into account when we profile a pedigree. In the meantime if you send the MDBA a copy of the pedigree and the vet notes the health notes will be added to our pedigree data base so that its recorded on future pedigrees for people to be able to see in the hope of breeding and owning healthier dogs. You dont need to be an MDBA member to send us this and have it recorded and its free. I would also like to have the name and prefix of the breeder via PM for future reference.

Sadly when someone decides this is what they are going to do they rarely take much notice of things they see as too hard or not necessary but sooner or later people and dogs get hurt when they didnt need to .As you can see any criticism is treated as if its coming from people who are jealous or who are mean and nasty - couldnt possibly be that they care about the dogs and the whole PR and future of private rescue. Soliciting for donations when you dont have an ABN , dont have approvals, dont have a registered business name ,taking dogs into your home when you live in an area with a couple of dog limit, not having policies and procedures to help you to deal with problems as they come up and knowing what criteria you are going to expect from those you have reciprocal agreements with are not that uncommon. The results are pretty obvious and could have been much worse in this case if the neighbour hadn't have gotten onto it straight away and there were more dogs in the mix but sometimes a "rescue" run havoc for a couple of years and there in lies the biggest problem. There are a lot of people who have worked tirelessly for a very long time to show the public they can be trusted to screen dogs for them and to be honourable with their donations- to show governments they are a viable alternative for what happens to dogs in pounds ,that they dont break the law and dont need over regulation which would see them having to operate with more restrictive regulation. There is much more at stake than a dog or two having to be moved around too much. I sat in a meeting a couple of years ago re puppy farming with about 18 people who represented the dog world in Australia - one of them was a big wig from the AVA .The very first thing that was addressed was how to determine a definition of a puppy farmer and the AVA wanted private rescue included in that as they felt private rescue was simply a cover for hoarding. Obviously he didnt get his way but its important to know that private rescue has its own enemies in the back ground and several groups with a vested interest in making it harder not easier for private rescue to grow and continue. We have already seen some private rescue being inspected and extremely difficult requirements put on them with 7 truly good people with knowledge and experience that I know of simply giving up. People will stop donating if they cant see that their money will be used as it is intended to be used and they cant tell who is dodgy and who isnt - if a dog goes home and kills the neighbours cat, kills the owners dog or bites their child its rescue in general that gets the flogging not just the group no matter how new or small they are that is responsible. There are much bigger things at risk than stroking your own ego and mopping up a bleeding heart .Its not like it was 10 years ago and bad news travels fast and long after the public remember the name of the person or group responsible they remember that they cant trust private rescue .

Unless of course members of the committee haven't taken due care, or have knowingly acted irresponsibly or illegally. Incorporating is not a cop out to avoid responsibilities. Yep sorry I wasnt clear - nothing covers you if you are committing fraud or anything else illegal .

Dunno who told you that but Id get it in writing if I were you. You dont have to apply to the Victora Fair trading dept if you dont get more than 10,000 in donations but thats ONLY after you have non profit status awarded you via the ATO. You still have t comply with accountability and audits. If you dont get 10,000 a year paying for an accountant and audits will take a fair chunk out of that before you start . You will also need public liability insurance and volunteers insurance - how much will be left of your 10,000 to pay for the dog's expenses ?

You can have a bunch of people who decide to start a club or a group and never incorporate and then you can have someone come up and say - Here's a hundred bucks to use for ..... and as long as you use it for that .... No big deal you never even have to declare it or show it as far as income is concerned but if you use it for something else they could scream about it and sue you. But you cant actually ask for donations which includes having a make a donation link on your facebook or website etc unless you have approvals to fund raise in each state and when you are asking for donations on the net you have to ensure you have approvals to fund raise in all of the states unless you specifically say only those in one state can donate. Same with raffles. You can run auctions and sell stuff to anyone but that then becomes taxable income and you need an ABN which you can get as an unincorporated entity. Its illegal to operate using a business name which isnt registered with Asic [ used to be fair trading] and you need an ABN for that too. If you want to pay no tax you need to register as a charity which can be done when you apply for your ABN .You dont pay tax on donations anyway but you do pay tax on salable items if you dont have this. If you want to accept donations and allow people who donate to claim that as a tax deduction you have to apply for a deductible Gift recipient status via the ATO. If you are not an incorporated association you can be sued personally if you make a mistake if you are incorporated the association is liable and you wont loose the house. Its possible to get approvals to fundraise if you are not incorporated but its harder in some states its hell and rescue is able to get charitable status but this all comes with the need for yearly audits and accountability and that is expensive and a pain in the neck.

What a lucky puppy !

While we are waiting . Let me give you a history lesson. Dr Lesley Levins Invergowie prefix has bred labs for about 40 years. Over this time many [most] of her puppies went to the guide dogs in NSW . She has bred too many conformation and obedience champs to count and has been known for the great health and temperament of her dogs with excellent health scores. She is responsible for helping people get started with the best dogs she could breed and mentoring including Tapua and getting it right for the breed.She is also responsible for the courses the MDBA offers. While she was a professor of Science Education at Armidale Uni about 15 years ago her health deteriorated and she began losing her vision to a point where she became legally blind and had to go to Sydney and be trained to live with one ot the puppies she bred and had sold to the Guide dogs. Not long after Lesley and Sally [ the dog] attended one of the MDBA awards evenings where many people from Dogz got to meet them and appreciate what Lesley had already known - How very important it is to breed great dogs, predictable dogs with every chance at a long healthy life able to do what they are meant to do to enable humans to be able to live with them and do what they expect their breed to do. Lesley had no idea when she started out that she would be a candidate for a guide dog but if there was ever an opportunity to assess what you have done and what you have passed on for the future she certainly has first hand knowledge of this and has much to be proud of. Now lets talk about Tapua - they get it . They know what it's going to take for a dog to qualify to be a dam and a Sire of one of their litters and what most don't know is that when Pauline was gathering credentials and taking out awards for her dogs some of that was from a wheel chair and walking frames as she fought to fight and walk again .She is now consultant to councils and is one of the best dog trainers in this country. The work they put into breeding their dogs and the puppies foundation is amazing and few breeders come anywhere near their standard and dedication .There is absolutely no doubt what ever that their selection is about health, temperament and working ability over and above conformation even though they give the show ring a fair shake too.If I had a week to tell the story I could go into what else they are up to and how they influence many other areas of the dog world. To get one of these puppies is a pretty big deal and to have a opportunity to reap the benefits of what Pauline and Pete [ and Lesley] have had to offer - priceless. Tapua were the winners of the Master Dog Breeder of the Year last year and they have been nominated again this year - this is about how they treat and support their puppy buyers and I know what they decided to sacrifice this year to do the right thing by one of their puppy buyers which most breeders wouldn't have done so this puppy comes home with everything anyone could hope for when they look for a breeder who does it all as a labour of love and is getting it right.

Its Bow Wow Meow for me .All of my puppy buyers are advised to go with them for at lest the first 12 months as this is the primary risk time - if something like a reaction to a vaccine etc shows its usually in the first year .If I had a breed prone to HD Id probably advise the first 2 years and they get the first few weeks free. But all of my puppies go out with a health care card with every thing in them from time and weights at birth and every little thing that happens between birth and when they go home .They also have a vet certificate giving them an all clear or if something shows up such as an umbilical hernia etc there is a notice in writing from the vet about what that is and how or if it may affect the dog through out its life. If the insurance company wanted anything its easily accessible.

Maltese arent terriers are they?

This is the purpose of screening and checking before dogs go anywhere.No one should have allowed you to take a dog without council approval to be operating as you intended. Its a lesson for everyone because they cant even trust those who are masquerading as a rescue group.