Steve

Assumption much asal!!!!! Sorry, but aside from the fact that I find it incredibly difficult to read your posts due to lack of punctuation and capital letters.....a lot of what you say is absolute crap based upon your own misconceptions and pre-conceived ideas of dog breeders. sweetie, just talk to your own vet. thats not assumptions, the rate of bitches who have never had a litter naturally is amazing and some are generations of such mums. one breeders bitches wont even feed their pups past day 10 so they are hand fed from then, thats not assumptions. has been breeding for decades that breed. imagine a newbie starting out with a bitch pup from such lines. they will be wreaks trying to understand why the pups are hungry. another friend out coonabarabran bred their bitch and discovered she couldnt deliver so had to drive 200 km to nearest vet. to learn 4 generations of ceasers behind her. does not look like assumptions to me anyway DARLING, I've been breeding purebred dogs for 24 years and I know for a FACT that I don't tolerate consistently problematic lines and I do not take over from mother nature without a VERY good reason. I would also suggest that very few breeders enjoy having to spend a lot of money on sections that could be avoided. I would also hazard a guess that asking some vets may not be a good idea because some of them LOVE recommending unneccessary sections because it is a lovely source of ready revenue. So, until you are a dog breeder and KNOW for a fact what goes on behind closed doors, you should probably just keep your assumptions to yourself because each and every time you put your fingers to your keyboard, you show yourself to be a nasty, spiteful person with a lot of opinion and very little real knowledge about certain issues. We all KNOW you've had your issues with the RSPCA but to be honest, you are sounding more and more like that organisation and the gardener every day and that is of great concern IMO. Ellz - Asal is a breeder and in some breeds its true that problems have been allowed to occur and not selected against. Some breeds have definitely suffered because things like whelping issues havent been seen to be something that should be taken into account.

Surely that alone rings alarm bells....and rather smacks of a puppy mill? Sure, puppy mills are legal, but it certainly doesn't hurt for the RSPCA to be aware of their existence and to keep periodic checks on the welfare of the animals kept there. Without marching into the premises, Heavy Paws, or anyone who cares about the welfare of dogs and cats, would have no idea if animals are sufferering there or not, particularly if the premises looks a bit 'feral'...so getting the RSPCA to check is a very sensible option. If the owner has nothing to hide and the animals are kept in good conditions, have adequate food, water, shelter, vet care and exercise...then exactly what harm is done by them being checked out? Honestly....I wonder if some of you are just posting to start yet another argument? Keeping periodic checks on them because they breed dogs conducted by a group who is against breeding and who is a quasi police force with no accountability - no way am I giving a tick to that especially as there is no definition which differentiates between them and any other person who breeds a litter of puppies. If they are a boarding kennel and obviously they are they have much harder regs and more frequent checks anyway. If they are boarding animals with out the required permits they would have been shut down long ago and they wouldnt be advertising it either. So are you saying that just because someone breeds dogs they should be immune to any checks at all ? Puppy buyers have to meet a criteria set by the breeder but the breeder doesn't have to comply with Animal Cruelty Acts or whatever they are called ? Even on this forum I have read awful stories from people who have bought a puppy in good faith from a registered breeder only to then have problems. Sure there are problems with the RSPCA but also there must be some form of independent body that has the power to oversee animal breeding and welfare. Of course Im not saying that because someone breeds dogs they should be exempt from having to comply with certain requirements and ensure their animals are well looked after and I may even consider there is a valid case for some governing body to ensure all is well but I will never agree that giving warranted special police constable powers to a group which is not knowledgeable in breeding dogs and which actively works against breeders WITHOUT ACCOUNTABILITY is ever to be given a tick. No system is infallible but every system has to be accountable and until such time as they are accountable and there are sufficient procedures in place to make people feel they have something in place to protect them from potential corruption and victimisation - no way. Why should someone who breeds dogs have to be concerned about random visits from the RSPCA ? Because the RSPCA are not accountable and there is a potential for biased unfair un just decisions to be made in the name of the greater good - stopping people from breeding dogs so all sales are from rescue.Even if that has never happened or that it never ever does happen I believe that there has to be accountability.

It isn't just the animal rights people though. A lot of breeders seem want to foster attitude that you can't breed on a large scale and do it well. When I have said on this forum that there is a place for good, ethical, registered breeders breeding sound, healthy, typey pure bred puppies for companion homes - testing them occassionally in the show ring but without the show ring being the whole point of breeding - it has been breeders on here who have howled me down and said I support puppy famers and am anti registered breeder. I have found as much dispute amongst the registered breeder community on this issue as within the broader community. Yep because they are brainwashed and use it as a way of re inforcing what animal rights have been bleating because it makes them feel superior when they breed a letter every two years rather than be seen for what they are people who have little clue about breeding puppies fit for human families over several generations. Again I say anyone can breed a puppy, anyone can breed a champion or a working dog but it takes a hell of a lot more than a litter or two now and then to be able to consistently breed great puppies. If you own a dog and show it - instant credibility - breed it and of course you're a great breeder - what a joke.

I breed Dorper sheep - purebred.The more I breed the better Im known and the more people who want my stock for breeding. I can put a sign up out front of my property and say "Sallson Dorper Stud" I can advertise in journals and magazines, I can have big sales and and I can advertise on the net. No one tells when I can and cant breed them, how often I can breed them - in fact one of the things taken into account with estimated breeding values is how young they are when they can have their lambs, how often they have lambs and how many lambs they have,how long they can have lambs for. I have one ewe here who is over 10 years old and still has two drops of twins per year like clockwork and is the best Mum ever. She has never lost a baby. She loves me and thinks she is a dog and she tells her babies to love me too.I will decide when its time to tell her she is too old to have any more babies because I know her and what is normal and I know about the breed and the species. Ive been breeding Dorpers now for around 8 years. If you ring and ask me how many rams I have or how many sheep I have Ive no worry with telling you and you assume they are well looked after with no need to have the RSPCA knowing where I am or what im doing so they can call in and do periodic checks on me. I sel a Ram for 10,000 and I can really strutt my stuff and feel pretty good about that especially as I know rather than cut costs I did everything in my power to ensure they are healthy and happy. I breed Beagles [for 35 years] and Maremmas [ for 18 years] and there's not a chance Id put up a sign on my property which said "Sallson Beagles and Maremma stud" Yet Im a much better dog breeder than I will ever be a sheep breeder. If you ask me how many dogs I own - I start to question why you would ask. There's something really wrong with this AND ITS A DISGRACE THAT THIS COUNTRY HAS BEEN LED BY ANIMAL RIGHTS RAT BAGS TO GET US TO THIS POINT. I would also like to add that in all the time I have visited this forum that this is the first time Ive taken the plunge and said out loud the name of my prefix which is also my business name.

Surely that alone rings alarm bells....and rather smacks of a puppy mill? Sure, puppy mills are legal, but it certainly doesn't hurt for the RSPCA to be aware of their existence and to keep periodic checks on the welfare of the animals kept there. Without marching into the premises, Heavy Paws, or anyone who cares about the welfare of dogs and cats, would have no idea if animals are sufferering there or not, particularly if the premises looks a bit 'feral'...so getting the RSPCA to check is a very sensible option. If the owner has nothing to hide and the animals are kept in good conditions, have adequate food, water, shelter, vet care and exercise...then exactly what harm is done by them being checked out? Honestly....I wonder if some of you are just posting to start yet another argument? Keeping periodic checks on them because they breed dogs conducted by a group who is against breeding and who is a quasi police force with no accountability - no way am I giving a tick to that especially as there is no definition which differentiates between them and any other person who breeds a litter of puppies. If they are a boarding kennel and obviously they are they have much harder regs and more frequent checks anyway. If they are boarding animals with out the required permits they would have been shut down long ago and they wouldnt be advertising it either.

There's no shame in making money from breeding dogs.The problem lies in the small print and its a pretty big trap. If I breed to make money then money becomes part of how I manage my dogs. No big deal if it motivates me to find the best price for vets, meds, food etc but it is if it becomes a situation where these things are compromised in order for me to make more money or spend less without the welfare of the animals remaining the first priority. Businesses start and fail all the time - no big deal but when its live animals there is much more at stake and usually risk analysis and processes in place to protect the animals against things which compromise their welfare if things go belly up are not considered before someone decides to increase their dog numbers. For me what makes the difference has nothing what ever to do with how many dogs you have or how many you breed or how much money you make or dont make. Its about who you are.I know thats hard to define but a good breeder treats their approach and every thing they do - every decision they make based first and foremost on the welfare of the dogs, the goal means nothing with out that. Some people breed dogs to make a champ, others to pay the electricity or to give the kids the joy of watching animals being born,some breed for nothing more than to provide people with a great pet. They can all do it well or not. Its what they are prepared to compromise on that counts. For a good breeder its a way of life a philosophy almost like a religion and while they dont breed dogs to make money they deserve to make money and only an idiot would take up any pastime or activity with the intent of loosing money. One big deal is that breeders are now taking their lead from idiots who have never bred dogs or people who have bred dogs for a particular goal without concern for what they have had to compromise on. We have been led like sheep until many of our own are bleating away at what we should and should not do with no real understanding of what it really does take to consistently breed great predictible pet puppies. Its the only pastime , occupation or hobby I can think of where the less you do it the better you think you are and the better people think you are. There's a big difference between someone who breeds a litter of puppies and a breeder.A breeder should be able to strut their stuff and promote themselves [their prefixes] and what they produce just as much as any designer brand and its time we stood proud of what we do and how we do it based on whats best for the dogs not what someone who doesnt breed dogs and who doesnt have even a tiny amount of our passion, knowledge or experience tells us we should. How on earth does a breeder take steps to breed out problems and produce puppies over 20 or so generations without having the numbers to be able to move? To take out what is not the best choices for breeding and use those which are? Think it through - if the OP is really some disgusting filthy puppy farm why would they advertise their puppies on the side of the road and invite people to drive in and look and buy them? If they were such terrible puppy farming filthy people how long could they continue to sell puppies this way without someone who went in and buying a puppy legitimately complaining about it? How could they continue to advertise what they are doing for this length of time without council or someone pinging them if they were doing it without approval? Do you know what it takes to have your place perfect all the time in case someone drives in off the street unannounced to look you over and buy a puppy? For God's sake this has gone far enough - start thinking for yourself and considering whats good for the breeds we love and the dogs we breed into the future. We are already so over regulated that we cant do whats best for the species without being made to feel we are crimminals.Enough is enough.

There is around 10 left here but I believe they will be available via dogz too. I posted 100 of them to Troy today!

Its all good - we have enough for postage. Thanks anyway but its covered. Mind you if you have some spare change and want to donate it we wont say no but seriously we put just enough on each to cover the posatge nicely. Julie

Yeah I havent seen a goat race for about 20 years and that was down the main street of Lightning Ridge when I lived up there. Back then the goats were trained and people worked with them for weeks to get them ready for the run which lasted about a minute with only adult drivers. I couldnt see the entertainment value back then and felt pretty disappointed after all the hype about the goat races that went on for weeks. Big deal goats running down the street for just one race but if it's changed and what was on that video is for real they need a hell of a good kick and if they cant take it back to a point where its done humanely it should be shut down.

O.K. They have all left the building - anyone who doesnt recieve theirs - by say - next Monday - give a yell. Whew!

Believe it or not several of the speakers at the building better dogs seminar made a similar point.

What on earth is the good of taking CC numbers when we only breed less than 10% of them and offsetting that with those which have bitten if we dont know who bred the ones that have bitten How many kelpies are bred which are not registered with working dogs groups or CCs? How many of those dogs were bred by a regsitered breeder so why use registered numbers. Idiots.

I had some puppy buyers tell me today that their local vets have told them who to stay away from in their area, basically the "puppy Millers" who keep dogs in tea chests in the middle of a paddock and puppies in turned over eskys for shelter??? ...and some registered breeders who only breed a few litters a year do a poor job of socialising their puppies. It is very difficult for the buyer who need to be able to make an informed decision. Thank goodness there are many who do their homework. Registration papers dont make the difference.

Where was the story .Lightning ridge has goat races every year Its a big deal tourist attraction and granted its been a long time since I was there but none of the goats were behaving as if they were stressed and they had all been trained and conditioned to run behind a gig the couple of years I saw the race.

But guess what ? Small rescue have to comply with planning laws too. Oh Oh - looks like you got what you asked for - tougher laws.

And the extra 4 mill they are being given to enforce it plus the fines and the rest they pick up by pinging people. Fancy anyone ever being able to imagine that in this country we would see warranted special constables with no accountability outside their own org getting this much power. ...and how will this affect breeders of unregistered dogs and Designer Dogs?? Short answer....it won't because they are "under the radar". Correct or they already comply with planning laws and like good breeders have battery dog conditions.

Imagine trying to tell someone 10 years ago that we would have laws which allowed you to take your dog to a vet to have it put down just because you wanted to but if you dont jump through 200 hoops and play the game you're told you cant ask a vet to debark them even in another state. Imagine trying to tell someone that if you took a dog to a dog show which had been debarked by a vet that you could go to hell.

And the extra 4 mill they are being given to enforce it plus the fines and the rest they pick up by pinging people. Fancy anyone ever being able to imagine that in this country we would see warranted special constables with no accountability outside their own org getting this much power.

d

Dogs do more on beaches than poop and pee. Lots of people who visit the beach with an expectation that there will be no dogs there may have felt uncomfortable because the dog was there - not knowing when it may be put down etc. They thought they werent breaking the law - they were - they got caught .Could have said 'ooops' and paid a small fine which is what they risked when they stepped onto the beach with their dog but instead they get their names in the paper. Idiots - and all they do is ensure that there are more and more laws with more and more specific stuff made illegal for the rest of us.

While ever Vicdogs speaks for its members and it is backing this - its a lost cause.

Oh god is that STILL going? Jaysus. Yes it is - not that you'd know because everyone is too frightened to talk about it . Poor Judy.

http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?show...&hl=warning This will demonstrate nicely - while you read it consider this. The posts by alanglen - an ex RSPCA vet. The fact that this woman is still in court over this. How that may have turned out if we hadnt of kicked and screamed about it as much as we did and organised legal help to get the dogs back. 100 % it couldnt have happened if someone in state government had an ounce of common sense. and if Dogs Vic had of not been so lilly livered and had stood against the bullshit legislation when it was being pushed through instead of playing crap games and "being nice"

Nothing on its own. Its the system which causes the possible and probable issues and problems. No system is infallible but when you give power to one organistaion make it a quasi police force with no accountability even if they never do anything wrong the public perception is one of powerless against them. By allowing the RSPCA the power it has - which gets stronger everyday - without the ability to monitor it and make it accountable it places us right back where we were prior to anti corruption legislation where cops loaded the witnesses, planted false evidence, destroyed the evidence which may give them a defence and backed each other up to cover each other. They can accuse you of ill treating your animal and justify taking it away without telling you where they are taking it without evidence. They can take it to their own vet and chat among themselves and decide the dog has to be put to sleep without a second opinion. Once its dead they cremate the evidence so even if you wanted to defend your self there's nothing left to prove they are setting you up, chuck in some politics and bit of networking ,taking your records so you have no paperwork left to defend yourself.Then factor in that they want you to pay a huge bond if you want to defend yourself even way before you are proven guilty and that places anyone who owns an animal at risk .Complain about the power they have and you will be told no one has anything to worry about if they are doing the right thing. Back around 30 years ago they told us that about the cops. There isnt any point in rattling on abouts specific cases because they tell you the courts will sort it out - if you are not guilty the court will work that out but they go by what they are told by a group who is given more credibility because they are the animal cops and most ordinary peopel have no experience in courts and defending themselves and no huge amounts of money to pay for legal fees. If you are found not guilty you are so relieved and terrified of bringing it on again so you shut up if you are found guilty you are a crook and its sour grapes. Do you know as evidenced on Bleats website which tells of convictions the RSPCA have been able to procure that one woman was found guilty of animal cruelty , fined 1000 dollars for killing a rat ? She put it in the freezer to kill it. God help the people around here who snap their necks and backs in traps! So whats wrong with the RSPCA ? The state governments.

I really think the game is over. Dog breeders have lost. But it will take 10 years for ANKC to have it's last gasp (might even hang on a bit longer as sort of a rare breed group or something long those lines) and for it to really become apparent that there is just no where to buy a dog. They won't stop with the purebred breeders, but as predicted we are the easiest to go after first. They will also shut down back yard breeders as people get more scared of heavy fines or even jail time. Last to go will be the big commercial breeders. I give them another 5-10 years after the small breeders are gone. Steve can you put up a survey (I have tried and can not figure out how to do it) in the breeders section. See how many people say they are going to stop breeding as these new laws, restriction, shire abnd planning department requirments and threats of fines and jail time come into effect? Maybe also ask if they would be willing to stand up and be counted, attend protest or?? in public view to try to stop these laws and how they affect ANKC breeders. If you give me the exact questions Ill put up a survey monkey one for you which does all of the special graphs etc However, when we did that last one 78% said that the thing that would stop them were more laws and more regulations.