WoofnHoof

It's awesome that she did so well in the crate while you were at work Jelly! I have to leave my SV in the crate when I'm at work she as she escapes from the yard and I haven't got anywhere else secure for her, she was fine once she got used to it and got into the routine.

It's interesting about the medication discussion, I personally hate the stigma that is attached to medication for mental issues both in people and in animals, it can really delay and hinder treatment for what are essentially legitimate issues. We medicate for all kinds of ailments, the brain is just a more complex organ to treat than injuries, we do know a lot about it but there are often very few neurological experts who are able to be consulted on this so it falls onto GPs and vets. I do agree that it is problematic when meds are prescribed with little to no attention paid to whether a real pathology exists or whether it is a behavioural condition. I had a similar problem when I took on mum's SV, she had had the vet out about her storm anxiety in the past, the vet prescribed ACE which IMO made the problem worse, it was obvious (to me) that the anxiety still existed but the dog was unable to react normally and so it simply introduced another stressor. An owner who is switched on can tell when their animal is stressed regardless of whether a drug is masking the overt behaviours, because the anxiety is still showing up in other ways, with my girl she will still pant and generally looks agitated even on valium.

That is awesome progress Jelly! Roo is a lovely girl and it does sound like the crate training is really helping her :)

:)

Not a coincidence SG actually, Skinner's work pretty much forms the basis of most of the pop psychology that is now applied to animals (and packaged neatly into books and DVDs interestingly enough), I'm not a huge fan generally although I can see the usefulness and the applicability. I will always advocate feel and timing as critical in any training or behavioural management application. ETA just saw your post Jelly sounds like everything is still on track, in can be hard to ignore them but I often find that a lot of dogs get so much out of being around us, even if we aren't directly interacting with them, so don't feel bad she is still spending time with you when you are home. Sounds like the crate work is going well too :)

Really? Or have they just been convinced of that fact? ;) That's more where I'm getting at Well I'd assume they haven't been taught, mind you some people will never have feel or timing, google Linda Parelli for a prime example of this. ETA plus you can't teach feel and timing in a 2 disc set for $199.95

Sounds very much like horse training theory, similar one-size-fits-all warm and fuzzy type training programmes abound in this field as well. I think the main reason many of these programmes have moved away from correction is that a lot of people don't have the feel or timing to correctly apply it. But the softly softly approach doesn't always work either, it just sells more books and DVDs because it sounds better. Even though many of those methods can be applied they can't be applied with the same degree of success if they lack timing and feel which is the one variable which accounts for individual differences, without that there is nothing. We need to learn to read the animals half as well as they read us :) Anyway hope Roo and Jelly have had a good day today :)

I agree Nek, meds certainly have a place but people don't always see that the stress tends to feed itself and its not necessarily the initial trigger that is the problem, it's the continual reinforcement of whatever the dog is doing, and dogs are so very much in tune to people that it can be hard for the owner to separate the trigger from the reinforcement. Sounds like Roo is well and truly on track :)

That is awesome!

Hmm, a good question WoofnHoof. The invoice says that the blood tests are 'CBC, biochemistry panel and electrolytes.' He also had urine taken for 'urinalysis' and a fecal sample to test for parasites (he is regularly wormed, but the vet mentioned parasites like Giardia that aren't killed by normal wormers). Is the liver function test a different blood test? The vet called later on Friday to say that the blood results were back. Nothing was remarkable except that he had an elevated level of 'eosinophils.' This could indicate a parasite infection or it could just be because he has allergies. He was diagnosed and was being treated by a dermatologist for the allergies. We are still waiting for the results on the urine/ fecal tests. Thanks WoofnHoof. :) A normal biochemistry result can pick up liver issues in the ALT levels but they don't always show up either so the one that is usually done to check liver function specifically is the bile acid test, they take blood when fasting and then after eating and compare the bile acid levels, that will tell you if the liver is doing it's job. Not all vet practices have come across liver shunts, I know mine hadn't so they didn't recognise it and it was misdiagnosed initially.

I think it's possible, lots of elderly people don't go out much, I know my mum's neighbours are rarely out, I think it's worth asking around the neighbourhood anyway just in case. They still might need to go out to get milk or something. It would really tie you down. Murphy's law that if you said you didn't have to go out that you would need to! Maybe someone that was disabled? Maybe Jelly could pick up their groceries on the way home. I wonder if the Salvos or a care group would know of someone. Yeah that's a good idea, someone who can't drive/isn't very mobile would love to have company if they don't already have a dog :)

I think it's possible, lots of elderly people don't go out much, I know my mum's neighbours are rarely out, I think it's worth asking around the neighbourhood anyway just in case. Don't feel guilty you are working on the problem and that's all you can do, she is tough she will deal and you never know she may just be a little better. I have found crate training to be really helpful for my girl :)

You are doing an awesome job with Roo I really hope you can make it through! Very disappointing about the uni girls, I agree with others that an older couple would be the way to go. I used to find Agistment for my horses by simply door knocking places that had an empty paddock, you would be surprised how easy it is, start with your neighbours as you will be able to sound them out. My mum has some elderly neighbours they used to have a farm they love dogs but won't have one now as they feel they are too old for the full time responsibility so finding people like that would be ideal if you can.

Has he had bloods done to test for for liver function? My shunt dog had GI issues which were a symptom among other things so I would check that.

I would be worried about someone stealing the dog or harming it, I wouldn't report it but it might be worth having a chat to the owner and making them aware. It's nice to see people going about their day with their dog accompanying them, it's just sad that it carries risks

A few years ago at my nieces school a woman left her baby in the car, forgot to drop her in at daycare and when she went to pick up her other child from school the girl found her sister dead in the car Such tragedy is unfathomable and hard to understand, but it can and does happen, and I seriously doubt the mother was charged as it was obvious to all that it was a terrible and devastating mistake to make. It is hard to know how to deal with these things, add more procedures, regulations and people whinge about the nanny governance and overprotection. My mum worked in day care for many many years, so many regulations, tvs must have all cords inaccessible to kids, no glass below a certain height unless it's special safety glass, no ledges for kids to climb on and jump off. Each of these rules came in because somewhere a child died for the lack of it. Who is to say what the value of a life is? Personally I will take nanny governance and overregulation if it helps to save a life, I think it is good that the procedures are being reviewed, in an industry where moving animals is a significant part then yes the company responsible needs to have procedures in place to ensure that the whereabouts of all animals are known at all times, a simple logging system to check dogs in and out of premises would assist I would think.

Wonderful to hear there is a plan to get Roo and Jelly on track Thanks Nek it's lovely of you to help, I don't think you are a fat bogan at all! :)

Well I guess all geneticists should hang up their coats then, the jury has spoken.

They did there was a huge behaviourism movement in psychology 50 years ago with Skinner et al, it has been largely dropped from human psychology but it seems to have been taken up with gusto by the animal world.

You might be right Cosmo. I guess I'm just tired of the real problem of ignorant and irresponsible owners being continually bypassed. None of this shelter research stops dogs being dumped there in the first place does it? Sure it might stop a few rebounds but that's kind of like ignoring the elephant in the room. Temp tests and ideal dog surveys are all about putting the responsibility on the animal to behave according to this arbitrary set of rules, the penalty for non compliance is death. People need to learn that animals will be animals, they don't always follow our plans or meet our expectations, they don't always behave in the same way, setting up a dog as having xxx temperament sets the owner up for disappointment and the dog up for failure IMHO. I don't know I just feel we live in a time where we have to make everything idiot proof because people won't be told, but you just can't do that with animals.

Like I said its all well and good to try and standardize temp testing, but in the case of the Heinz 57 where you can't tell what breeds have contributed you have no baseline and I don't believe that behaviorism is the holy grail of future predictor that many others seem to think it is. In a pure breed you already have a baseline model of what the dogs temperament is most likely to be, it's set out in the breed standard. In a Heinz 57 you are relying solely on behaviour in a shelter which IMO has far too many mitigating factors to be any kind of reliable predictor of future behaviour. But hey it's your research do whatever you want, I get it working with dogs is much more fun than working with owners who dump dogs. If it helps rehome dogs better then more power to you.

Been reading this thread but can't remember if its been mentioned before but I'm wondering how she would go in an old folks home? Not sure of the logistics maybe someone else knows?

Alkhe I see your point but I don't think the chances of standardising this type of thing is all that realistically feasible, I mean it takes hundreds of years of selective breeding to standardise a temperament and morphology. In the case of crosses it is unlikely that any test will be overly accurate anyway, we see so much variation in phenotype that it's unrealistic IMO to think that temperament will be any easier to characterise. In the case of purebreds then yes there should be a more predictable temperament but it's the breed standard that will guide this, generations of selective breeding can't be compared to a one-size-fits-all temperament test. ETA corvus you posted while I was still typing, your points are fair enough but I am afraid I still disagree for the reasons I've outlined above.

LOL so true :laugh:

Well, no, it's not. It's about using a single approach so that there are limited external variables that may influence the results. Like I said before, a standardised test needn't ignore breed. It could mean the individual tests within a behaviour assessment are carried out in a way that doesn't vary from dog to dog. Breed can be accounted for in the statistical analysis afterwards if there is enough information to do so. A standardised approach would mean the same things are measured in the same way using the same scale so comparisons can be made. This does not mean comparisons between breeds would be assumed meaningful. That is something you find out later in analysing the results. Ideally a standardised test would be well supported by science before it was adopted, but this isn't always the case. Standardisation does not necessarily equal loss of information or smoothing over details. That's all in the design. It does mean the ability to make comparisons and test for validity. This is useful. You can limit external variabiles till the cows come home, the point I'm trying to make is the internal variables within each dog can't be standardized, not without making some fairly large leaps of faith such as timidity being a significant problem, it may be a problem in some dogs in others it may just be a natural reaction to a highly stressful situation, not necessarily indicative of a significant fault in temperament.