DeltaCharlie

12kg is not that small. We have a 2yr old border collie that weighs 11.5kg (500mm at shoulder) and an 8yr old that weighs 12.5kg (490mm). Obviously a border collie is not what you are after but just pointing out that 12kg doesn't mean a small dog.

Our entire male smells, the desexed boys and girls don't.

interesting point, DC. Would that also cover 'fashions' or 'trends' that are favoured ... but nothing to do with the standard? Even in my breed of interest where all colours & mixes are accepted in the standard, I was once told that 'chocolate' colour fell out of being 'favoured'. I'm no expert so don't know the detail (nor if it's in the past). But the remark made me wonder about the issue generally. I can only speak for my own breed but an example of what I mean would be the coat length in a BC. The "typical look" for a BC is quite heavy coated but the standard only specifies that they are rough-coat. Ours are not smooth coats, they are genetically rough-coats but do not even come close to the coat of a show dog. In a working sense however, you would run a mile from the show coat as it is too long and heavy to be practical. It would collect burrs and grass seeds and would weigh down easily in heavy rain. It also requires regular grooming to prevent matts etc. Our dogs are lucky to get a brush once a year and a bath every 5 years. Both types fit the standard as it was written, but only one would be able to achieve success in the show ring. That is because over time one "look" has evolved for the show ring, for whatever reason. Perhaps it looks flashier? I'm not entirely sure. Or perhaps a heavy coated dog did really well at one point, was bred often and produced more heavy coats. People got used to seeing them do well and the "heavy coat" got paired with that and people started to prefer that look. Does that make sense? I believe that BCs also have certain colours that do better than others and I know symmetrical markings are preferred but I really don't know enough about it to comment too much sorry.

absolutely. hence there are some dogs that fit the standard, yet are likely unable to do the job they were meant to. hence the standard is not enough to 'preserve' the working side of a dog breed without the test of work. I agree, and it is why we will never buy a dog that is not from proven working lines, nor will we breed from a dog that cannot work. Simply meeting the standard is not enough. But that doesn't mean a working dog bred for its ability to work shouldn't also have good conformation. The standard should act as the base, then you build all the desirable traits, instincts and working abilities on top of it. We are lucky enough to own a breed that is still able to perform its original function I guess. I can't imagine the difficulty breeders would encounter with a breed designed to bring down a lion :p

I think the point some people are missing is that a dog can meet the standard without looking like a show dog. Our dogs are MR but if we were to walk into the show ring with them we would probably be laughed at. That doesn't mean they don't meet the standard for BCs, it just means they don't have the current "desirable look". The standard was written to reflect the build of a dog who could perform the required job efficiently and without breaking down. The show ring has its "types" and a certain look that wins, but that is not to be confused with the standard. It is possible to breed within the standard without breeding for the show ring.

Is she otherwise healthy and normal? If so, I wouldn't worry too much, especially if they are late maturing lines. Our lines tend to come in about 14-16months but can be longer. The only exception is one bitch who tested as severely hypothyroid, she was desexed close to her 2nd birthday and the vet said there was nothing to indicate she would have ever had a season, it was like desexing a very young puppy inside. She had a myriad of other symptoms though so if your girl seems otherwise healthy I would just let nature take its course.

IMO quality time is more important than quantity. As long as the time you spend together is well spent, playing, training, hanging out together then I have no issues with leaving a pup. If you get home and ignore her then that is a different story. I'd be making sure she has plenty of things to keep her amused while you are gone. Frozen Kong's, toys, etc to give her stimulation. You can hide bits of kibble around so she has to search for it. If you are really adventurous a small kids pool filled with sand and bury her toys.

The nobivac one is supposedly potent enough to knock out the maternal antibodies too (which sounds like a risk in itself to put that much into such a small being). Only experience I have had with the nobivac is one of our puppy buyers used it at 10 weeks, did a titre test at 12 weeks and the puppy had zero immunity. It had knocked out the maternal antibodies (or they had worn out themselves) but hadn't taken itself so puppy was very vulnerable at that time. Had to end up using a regular protech c3 on the pup anyway (which was tested to ensure the pup did respond, which she did).

Jumabaar already did :) In a nutshell, puppies receive immunity from their mother. For some this wears off as early as 6-8 weeks but for others it isn't until 16 weeks. If the maternal antibodies are still present then the vaccination won't take. Unfortunately there is no way of knowing when the right time to vaccinate is. You could strike it lucky with a 10 week vaccination and have your pup fully covered and not needing any more. Or your 10 week old pup could still have maternal antibodies present, making that vaccination useless and leaving them at risk until they receive their 16 week shot. The idea behind the 3 vaccinations is to try to minimise the time between maternal antibodies wearing off and the next vaccination. By only having 4 weeks between shots you reduce the window of risk. I think for most pups the maternal antibodies wearing off between 9-11 weeks and I consider this the biggest danger period.

Small black male named Hype (Justice All Hyped Up). When we finally get internet back I am going to be making a photo thread for him. He and his brother Wookiee have been enjoying catch ups at the last few agility trials. They are such funny little dogs, I would own a whole pack of them if I had the money :)

We have a 10 week old pup who is going absolutely everywhere at the moment. Agility trials and training, petbarn type places, local markets, the boardwalk, lots of visits to the vet clinic etc. He just stays in our arms and never goes on the ground. He can still get treats from people, have cuddles from vet staff, listen to traffic, hear kids screaming, watch other dogs, etc etc. He is a pyrenean shepherd and they are a breed where early socialisation is critical. With the BC puppies they still do all of those things but not as often, being a more robust breed and more accepting of the unknown. They would get maybe one or two outings each week as opposed to the four or five that the pyr shepherd is currently doing.

But there are plenty of main registered BC's with pricked ears in Aust. and plenty of main registered non allowable colours too. It seems acceptable amongst the community to main register them and breed from them...they just don't show them. I think its even more the case overseas. The BC's shown overseas are predominantly Aust lines & their deviation to the original working dog seems even more exaggerated. That is pretty much what happens anyway in BCs, despite the limited register I have owned 2 main register BC's with ABCA/ISDS pedigrees. Has this changed now? ANKC registered both of mine. Yes I know of many smooth coated MR border collies and plenty more with pricked ears or incorrectly registered colours. If anyone was to ever alert the ANKC to the particular dog though they can have their MR stripped. Vickie your girls are the same as ours. MR and also ISDS. The reason they get ANKC registration is because their parents have KC registration overseas. ANKC will only MR register them if they have another KC registration, whereas other countries will give them KC registration them if they have ISDS only, doesn't have to be KC in another country. Eg we bred a few litters that were only sporting registered in Aus but could be exported to another country with ISDS registration. That ISDS registration would allow them to get KC registration in the new country (as other countries recognise isds). Then they could be reimported back to Aus with their new KC registration and be given MR here. Its really stupid...

The gap is just as wide over seas, in fact some of my friends in the US suggest it is wider as the Aust Show BC's seem to have retained more of their working working ability than in other countries. The difference is that most other Kennel clubs will recognise legitimate ABCA/ISDS pedigrees and include them in the register. Aust won't. Legitimate colours and coats are included in the register, Australia restricts the colours/coats it will allow. So either a. we miss out on some great dogs or b. dogs are registered to fit the standard. And that's an interesting comment about development of the BC. I always thought BC's were of Scottish descent. Perhaps it was the show standard that was developed in Australia which is why some of the true working dogs are excluded? ;) In a nutshell, they are a UK breed and were for a very long time. It was Australia who decided to call them Border Collies (as opposed to simply sheepdogs) so they go down as being an Australian breed :laugh: From a KC point of view Aus developed the breed, even though they originated in the UK.

In Border Collies the big problem is that the ANKC standard is so restrictive that it is limiting our gene pool. Smooth coat is allowed all over the world but ANKC will only allow rough coat. At the moment 8 of the top 10 bcs in the UK are smooth coat but Australian breeders can't make use of them. Pricked ears are permitted all over the world but ANKC won't recognise them, so gene pool is limited further. Then the big one is colour. The rest of the world recognises any colour (with white not dominating) but ANKC only allows a selection of colours. A chocolate/white is acceptable and so is a blue/white but if they produce a lilac/white it can't be registered. A black/white can have tan points but not a choc/white or blue/white. A blue merle is allowed but not a choc merle. Yes, the wheels have been in motion for a while now to have the standard corrected to match the rest of the world but it is not an easy process.

I've tried sending her friend requests but she doesn't respond. Does anyone know her personally and could let her know the backstory?

Ok, I can now reveal the truth. The friend I referred is Tailwag (the other half of Springloded :p ) Yes, we have crossed over to the dark side and got ourselves a show dog :) Justice All Hyped Up (aka Hype) is a Pyrenean Shepherd and together with his littermate Wookiee they are the only 2 of their breed in Australia. There has been one previously so all the ANKC registration side of things is already sorted thank god.

God, we have runs and everything set up under our back verandah, never even occurred to us to seek approval. Landlord has been out plenty of times and even commented on what a good idea it was to have them for the dogs.

Hahaha loving some of these! I had the opposite problem. Took a 7month old Whip in for a regular chiro (along with about 5 other dogs) and the first thing the vet asked seas "what is wrong with your puppies neck?" We looked at each other confused and told her we hadn't noticed anything. Turns out he had a grass seed embedded (presumably swallowed and went through the throat). He had a lump the size of a tennis ball on his neck and we hadn't even noticed! In our defence we were assured it could have grown to that size in a matter of hours and in the rush of organising 6 dogs for an afternoon vet visit could easily be missed...

We went with a tricky trailer instead as the Toledo trailers are quite heavy. Other than that though I have only heard good things.

I have done the walk twice, once with my dog club at a regional branch and then the following weekend when I picked up Charlie (he was an rspca dog and the weekend I was traveling to get him coincided with the postponed walk of another regional branch. That was in 2007. I have competed in the flyball comp at the ACT MPW but never actually walked there. I am not a fan of the RSPCA and will not donate to them, but for many years the ACT RSPCA was actually a decent organization who worked closely with rescue and opposed BSL. Unfortunately I believe they are now just as bad as the others

I would be wary of using it on pregnant bitches. I read some pretty nasty reports (published by the company themselves) about all sorts of birth deformities etc during the testing phase. Not high enough incidence for them to have to declare "not suitable" but I wouldn't be prepared to risk it with my litters. I love the power of celebrity marketing. There is no way in hell I would feed my dogs the food they are currently marketing. I know Kelly and her dogs quite well, but that doesn't mean I would give my dogs something just because Kelly is being paid to promote it :) BC Crazy, I would steer clear of this with Stella. It is a neurotoxin and not safe for dogs with seizures.

Have a look at lagottos. Correct me if I am wrong but one of the primary goals for the cobber dog breed is to make useful, non-shedding service and assistant dogs. A friend of mine relies heavily (literally) on her assistant dog to assist her in getting up off the floor and back into the wheelchair. I highly doubt a lagotto would have the size nor strength to hold the weight of an adult resting on their back.

Thank you :)

Good to hear, I think it has been around for 12 months or so now. Am I right?

Interesting that. The dogs in question are nearly 16yo (5kg) and 13yo (2.5kg). For the most part they are pretty healthy, active little dogs but age is certainly not on their side. I think to play it safe we may look at using Advocate on them instead, it comes in 3 packs and they are due for worming anyway so will just save us buying more milbemax and work out similar price wise. If it was for the border collies we probably wouldn't hesitate to use the activyl, it seems that problems with products are more likely to appear on small, elderly dogs. We have finally sold the place near Canberra so already on the hunt for somewhere to buy that is not quite as coastal. Fingers crossed we won't need to worry about it for much longer, it was definitely not an issue last winter and we hope to be out of here in the next few months. I think we found the first flea in late January? That would certainly coincide with when the bunnies started to inhabit the yard. Although it would also coincide with when we finally got the dog fence panels up here and the dogs had more access to the grass rather than being kept in concrete runs so perhaps they were here all along. Someone also mentioned raising the lime levels in the soil? Not sure how you go about that though.