DeltaCharlie

Are the dogs permitted to move behind the handler after the ffc (with whatever name you want to call the move) or do they have to do a post turn around the upright at 13? I would see the broad being an issue if you had to post turn at 13 and would rather turn my back on the dog and leg it to take that out of the equation.

Struggling to see how a lap turn would make sense in that situation? Do you have video of you doing it to show us?

Adults too!

We love getting updates and seeing photos :)

A bit of an update but nothing really to add. Urine cultures haven't managed to grow anything so they are looking at doing blood cultures. To do that he needs more blood drawn so will need to be taken back off the antibiotics for a few days beforehand. The vet is waiting to confirm with the specialist centre before that is done though, so at the moment he is still on the antibiotics to hopefully kill off anything that may be in there.

Given what I have seen over the last 12 months my first port of call from now on whenever anything changes in a dog will always be thyroid. It controls so much of the body that it can show up in so many different ways and impact on so many parts of the body. If it were me I would be running a CBC, biochemistry, and at a minimum a t4 (many vets can do that in house). That should show up if anything is going on in the blood or thyroid and will give you a starting point. We have an 11 year old dog who has just developed a thyroid issue so definitely not too old :) It can happen at any age. I'm starting to think it is one of those things that is always there, lying in the genetic makeup, but it takes something external to trigger the issue and activate those genes. That stress (whatever it may be) can happen at any age so no reason why an older dog can't suddenly develop a problem. Same goes for adrenal glands etc too. The other thing I would be looking to do is get to a chiro or massage therapist. They will be the ones to pick up if your dog is sore, a general vet won't necessarily be able to do that. I've had regular vets miss some pretty major hamstring injuries etc on my dogs, even chiros have missed it and only the massage therapist has found the problem. So I wouldn't rule out soreness, especially at her age.

Initial results have come back indicating an infection of some sort (they are not sure what yet) so he is starting on some broad spectrum antibiotics. They have also indicated neutropenia (low WBC) but the lab is unsure as to whether he is not making enough or is using too much. Either way, another indicator that something underlying is going on. So far nothing has grown on the cultures but wouldn't expect that yet regardless, it was only started today. His teeth are not great and never have been. He doesn't do well with bones so gets less than all the others, only 1 a week, occassionally 2. He is in need of a dental but too risky with his heart the way it is at the moment. The skin infection was pretty mild, the toes had rubbed together and opened up the skin between but it was being cleaned daily and he wore his splint to keep off the toes until the wound closed up. He was licking at where the vet wrap had held the splint on, which led to a few small hot spots. They were cleaned too and once the DMP was used the whole thing closed up and its looking pretty good now. Its definitely possible that an infection could have got in as it was an open wound, although the symptoms started about 2 months beforehand. The initial issue with his foot happened about 12 months ago, could an infection have got in then and lay dormant until some sort of stress allowed to resurface? A new puppy was added to the pack in early Nov (he is sensitive to changes like that, especially puppies as he hates them) so it would have been a possible time of stress. It is entirely possible that the meat he consumed contained thyroid tissue as it is not a human grade meat. One of the main reasons we have taken him off it. He did best on beef (he has always had a sensitive gut and doesn't tolerate many foods) so I would not be surprised if that contributed to the issue.

I had a similar issue with Charlie (although he was a 2yo rescue at the time). I ended up teaching it by luring him under my legs so he couldn't get back up.

Hasn't been vaccinated in many years, all the dogs are titred instead. Not sure of exact dates for this dog, the younger ones with the hypothyroidism have only ever had puppy shots and were titred at the same time as the thyroid panels were done.

Turning to the DOL Brain Trust here as we have a bit of a medical mystery. I don't have all the blood results so will ask my friend for them if need be, the dog isn't one of mine. Background: 11 year neutered male border collie who has always been about 15kg. Struggled on and off to keep weight on him, pretty much his whole life, but it has been pretty stable for the last few years. About Nov of last year he got really thin again almost overnight. Required about 3x as much food (raw diet) each day just to stop the weight loss but no real weight gain. He was down to 12.8kg. Due to issues with his toes he doesn't free run, rarely goes for walks and pretty much lazes around the house. So no chance of burning off 3x as much food through exercise. I suspect muscle loss from 12months of reduced activity has contributed somewhat to the lower kg, but you could easily feel spine, hips, all the ribs etc. Around the same time his thirst increased remarkably and he was drinking and urinating often. He has never coped well with warmer weather so at first it was put down to the heat. Urine was concentrated appropriately. He had started to breath much heavier but no coughing, which was also put down to heat initially. During January he went to the beach, was carried over the sand and allowed to swim, then carried back to the car. Unfortunately this was enough to aggravate the toes and he ended up with hot spots on his feet from licking, and later hot spots up the leg. He has never been a dog that has loved other dogs in his space, but he had become increasingly grumpy even with familiar dogs. Medical Stuff: In January he went in to his previous vet on a visit to Canberra as the symptoms were getting worse and my friend was concerned about the water intake and possible kidney issues. Vet detected a rather loud heart murmur (that hadn't been there a few months earlier) and his heart rate was higher (120, so in normal ranges but particularly high for this dog). She took bloods to run a biochemisty panel and to check for something cardio (not 100% sure what that test was). She also gave some dimethyl phthlate to stop the licking of his feet. The biggest problem that showed in the blood work was that he had a t4 level of 145! (normal range is 21-51). Kidneys were fine, liver was a little abnormal though. To ensure that it wasn't an anomaly she had the regular vet do an inhouse test for t4 (range 1-4) and he came back as >8. Thyroid glands were palpated but nothing could be felt. Given that hyperthyroidism is so rare in dogs to begin with, most cases seem to be due to cancer or nodules on the thyroid gland. So he was referred to the ARH in Sydney for an ultrasound of his thyroid gland. Nothing abnormal showed up on ultrasound or chest x-rays. He also had an echo done to check his heart murmur. They discovered that his mitral valve was inflammed and that is where the leak was. Apparently this is not what they were expecting though. They were looking for similar issues to what hyperthyroid cats get but he was completely different, so the specialist questioned whether it was even related to the high thyroid or a completely different issue. He had no fever so they didn't think it was worth trying to grow any cultures to look for a cause for the inflammed valve at that point in time, instead they asked for a CBC, biochemisty, urinalysis to be done at the regular vet. They are also going to try to grow something from the urine. Those results should start coming through today. If infection is indicated he will go onto antibiotics to try and reduce the inflammation in his heart. Where to from here? The vet is questioning something environmental as the trigger. There are 2 younger dogs with hypothyroidism so she finds it a little odd that there are 3 in the same household with thyroid issues (although a further 2 dogs have tested as perfectly normal thyroid). The thyroxine supplement is kept in the fridge so he has no access to it and he rarely interacts with the other 2 dogs so highly doubt he has been supplementing himself. They did share a toileting area so he has been removed from that area entirely in case he has been getting thyroxine through urine/faeces of the other 2. He isn't one to eat poo, but if he stepped in some he is a fastidious cleaner. Highly unlikely as he would need to be doing a lot of it and regularly to reach those levels but easy enough to toilet him elsewhere and remove the opportunity altogether. He very rarely leaves the property. It is a rental house so not 100% sure of any chemicals used previously, moved in in May. The owner said he used neem oil and a bit of derris dust near the fruit trees (which are nowhere near the dog area). Some of the other dogs would have much higher access to these areas but they are all fine. Inside the house no chemicals are used on cupboards etc as this dog likes to lick doors and floors. After communications with Jean Dodds she has recommended removing all raw, red meat from his diet and retesting in 4-6 weeks. The specialist had also suggested a diet change to a commercial food with no added kelp or iodine supplements, so a bit of research has been done into that and taste of the wild will be trialed, along with chicken/turkey mince. He has been taken off the dimethyl phthlate and will look into some bitter apple to deter him from licking his toes. There is also a scintigraphy that can be done to check for any abnormal tissue in the neck region, but the specialist didn't think it was worth doing at this point in time. Ideas? The vets are all at a bit of a loss at this point in time. Not only is it rare to see hyperthyroidism in dogs, its even rarer to have no obvious cause. The main questions we need to find answers for: What chemicals are linked to thyroid dysfunction? We have been doing a lot of research on everything that can be found in the house but nothing is coming up as definitive. The problem is that all the dogs would have the same exposure to most of these, so surely all would have issues? The main ones used are: - aerogard (timeframe fits as it wasn't really used until about Sept/Oct, Canberra didn't have a mozzie problem) - Aqium hand sanitizer (was used previously but not in the quantities it is now) - dimethyl phthlate (has been stopped as of this week) - teflon is used for cooking, but always has been and I would expect other dogs to have the same issues (and the 2 with hypothyroidism are never in the kitchen area of the house, in fact 1 hates being inside full stop). So that doesn't really fit. What bacteria/viruses could affect the heart? I know there is a lab in the UK that can test for more viruses than we can in Aus, but no idea where to start. Is there anything that we could be missing? His diet is the same as numerous other dogs in the pack who are showing no issues, he spends less time outside and doesn't venture as far as they do, and rarely leaves the property unlike the others. There are 3 dogs older than him and 1 only a little younger so not an age or period of exposure issue either. What other tests could we look at running? No expense will be spared with this dog (who unfortunately is not insured), but we don't know where to go from here. He is an otherwise happy, healthy dog. He is full of energy, his coat looks great, and other than the increased panting (from the heart issue) and extreme weight loss appears to be perfectly fine. Any suggestions or similar cases would be greatly appreciated :)

I'd be leaving her with her littermates and Mum for now :) She is still a baby and has lots to learn about doggy stuff that we humans just can't provide. If you are keeping her, she has her whole life to spend with you so an extra 2 weeks won't make much difference in the grand scheme of things. That's not to say she can't start to learn the crate though and learn to settle in it and amuse herself. Just make them short sessions or during naptime, and put her with the others for the rest of the time :)

We start ours from pretty early on. Our whelping set-up is a ccrate over the whelping box with an xpen coming off it as Mum's escape/puppy play area when old enough. At about 3 weeks the whelping box is removed and the ccrate remains with the vetbed inside and they have free access to their big play area. Then at about 4 weeks we replace the ccrate with a couple of 32" crates and clip the doors to the xpen so they stay open. The real crating starts about 5 weeks. To begin with they go into a crate with at least one other and it is only closed for eating and sleeping. As soon as 1 wakes up every is let out to toilet and play, doors are then left open (and they usually go back in there to sleep). From about 6 weeks they are left in there with lots of toys (and a buddy to begin with) and they generally just play or sleep. We rotate them all through as they get older so that by the time they are ready to go to their new homes they love the crate and are more than happy to sleep in there. We don't sell to pet homes, and all of our pups to date have gone to homes where they sleep in a crate initially. A new home is stressful enough, I figure at least they don't have to be stressed about being stuck in a cage all night too :)

Yep, that works :) Personally I have no issue with it, as long as people are breeding healthy dogs with relevant health tests and not just in it for a quick buck then I don't really care where they register their pups, regardless of what breed they are.

Missing 1 month won't make a difference :) It takes 6months for heartworm to mature enough to cause an issue and they can be killed at any point in that time. So even if your dog was unlucky enough to be bitten by a mozzie, who happened to have bitten an affected dog in the previous day or 2 to even be carrying heartworm in the first place, all in the month you may or may not have missed, then the following months dose would have removed the problem :) We only treat for heartworm every 3 months

I've seen the ad in question, definitely refers to independent breeders association but hard to tell if it is naming an association or simply referring to an independent association for the breed. Mind you it is a breed that I have never heard of another association other than ANKC, working versions of this breed are still ANKC registered so not like your working dog registries or anything. It is actually very cleverly worded full stop. Pups are 7 weeks old today and the overall feel is that the other 3 in the litter are already happy in their new homes, but doesn't actually say as much. Not sure what the age requirements are for that state when it comes to puppy sales (i don't even know what they are in NSW to be honest).

We always feed our bones frozen, a dog is far less likely to want to swallow large portions of something that cold. Especially with puppies, most of our adults are trusted with fresh bones if they have just been bought and no time to freeze.

Still no internet so limited in what I can do but here are my personal experiences. Litter of 3 pups from a repeat breeding (first litter perfect in every way and no issues known). Pup 1- started cluster seizures at age of 15 months. Put on phenobarb but had no impact. Has had cluster seizures every 2-3 weeks for the last 6 months and they were getting worse. Only ever cluster seizures, never single seizures. Sought a second opinion and it was suggested to test thyroid function even though the dog had absolutely no other symptoms of thyroid issues (other than the seizures). Everyone else said waste of money but went ahead with test anyway. Pup 2- all the researching of symptoms described this pup very well. Never looked like coming into season, behavioural issues, hyperactivity (which I had previously thought was characteristic of hyperthyroidism but apparently can also by hypothyroid in some cases). First 2 pups were tested and came back as being hypothyroid. Pup 1 quite low but pup 2 incredibly low. 6 weeks of meds and noticeable difference in pup 2 (whose levels have just tested as being in normal range now). Pup 1 had her last cluster a little over 3 weeks ago but nowhere near the severity (her levels have still come back a little low though). Pup 3- as of yesterday has now had a cluster of seizures. Thyroid levels will be tested (despite no other symptoms). Will keep you posted. Needless to say the lines were desexed.

The dogs are around 4 kilos or just over now & have about 4 tablespoons of mixed meat stew with vegetables & a little rice to thicken it, with added fish 2 or 3 times a week & a third of a dog measure cup of dry. Some roo bone or chicken neck/wing for teeth a couple of times a week instead of one of the meals. Appetite has decreased with age. They would be very hungry if I cut that down. If our 5kg poodle x ate that much she would very quickly become a 10kg poodle cross! God, if some of our border collies ate that much they would stack it on too! Their food can be cut down and they won't starve :) Maybe add pumpkin to make them feel fuller if you are worried about it.

I have no internet at the moment (telstra promises they will investigate by the 19th of Feb...) only my phone, but I will see what I can do. I know I have read studies on it, I just need to locate them :) The statement about 77% of seizuring dogs tested being hypothyroid is just that. No mention of them being controlled by thyroxine alone so not sure where that stat came from. Some dogs can be controlled with thyroxine and no need for anticonvulsants, others may need a lower dose of it. It would be a pretty useless stat though as every dog is different and will respond differently. What good would it do an owner to know that a certain % of dogs no longer require anticonvulsants but they are unlucky and still do? I think in that respect you would take each case on it's own merits and go from there. One thing I will say though is that thyroxine is no where near as harmful to the body long term as something like phenobarb, so even if it cannot be weaned off completely, if that dose can be lowered as a result of taking thyroxine as well then it can only be a good thing.

Fair enough :) I only suggested her as she is cheapest. There is also a lab in the UK that will do the autoimmune thyroiditis test. Interestingly enough the vet who initially suggested the thyroid testing is not a fan of Jean Dodds either, however, thyroid function is a contributing factor in seizures and cannot be ignored. The t4/free t4 levels can be tested in Australia, but it costs about the same as the whole package at Jean Dodds. Autoimmune Thyroiditis can appear in dogs that have normal t4 levels and mimics the symptoms of hypothyroidism so if the dog comes back ad normal that test then needs to be run, easier to get it all done at once. Phenobarb can lower the t4 levels and give a false reading, however it gas no impact on the free t4 levels so it is still possible to get an accurate diagnosis. It is one if the reasons why I would test thyroid function first though, because then the blood is taken before any anticonvulsants are in the system, so it becomes a non-issue.

I am curious, why would you not bother with a simple test that could provide answers to so many questions and symptoms? Given that research suggests such a high number of fitting dogs with thyroid issues (which is not a standard pre-breeding test in most breeds) I would be testing that first. I don't know the stats of fitting dogs with shunts or infections but can't imagine they would be as high as 77%. If they were people wouldn't even refer to "epilepsy" as the majority of them would have a diagnosis and only 23% would be idiopathic, less once you take out the brain tumours, dogs with severe allergies (i know of a dog who seized whenever he ate lamb), skull malformations, brain injuries etc. I think the key is to test for as much as you can, starting at the most common causes and working your way down (within your means of course, not everyone can afford an mri or ct to rule out tumours and malformed skulls etc). Having a dog with a severe seizure disorder is not fun, and you do everything you can to find answers.

Also get the thyroid tested. Latest stats are that 77% of dogs with a seizure disorder are hypothyroid, but it is not something that most vets know to test for. You usually have to ask. Jean Dodds in the US does a full thyroid panel including the test for autoimmune thyroiditis (which can't be tested in Aus) and it works out cheaper to send the blood to her for the whole lot than to get the tests done in Aus.

We have a few that were desexed later in life, no issues at all with weight. In fact, the 12 year old is currently on a "get fat" diet as she is too thin! In all honesty it isn't something we think too much about, we treat all the dogs the same. If they are too thin, we up their food, if they are porky we reduce their food.

My Cody was exactly the same, but it HAD to be one of those pimple balls with the bell inside (the bell never lasted long but had to be in there for the initial "getting to know you" stage or he wouldnt touch it). He usually only got a new one because the last one was lost or thrown over a fence so no chance of making it smell like the old one, we just had to wait it out until he decided that it was his "absolute favouritist ball EVER" and we could resume normal playing again. If only they could talk...