Mrs Rusty Bucket

rajacadoo After your description - I was looking to see what had happened to this dog to make him distrust humans... Hmm, these stand out... I think Hubby mistreatment of your dog may have happened first and been ongoing. Did hubby train this dog "stand for exam" or judges table? If my dog had experienced this kind of treatment - I think she would have done me serious damage. She also doesn't like having her feet clipped at all and I get a professional groomer to do it who has all the right gear and heaps of practice. And evil hound gets heaps of treats during the process so it's a good experience for her. She's still not exactly relaxed until it's over but she forgives the groomer. I did manage to train her to roll onto her back in my lap and let me play with her feet - using lots bits of roast lamb over many sessions but she still was offended by actual clipping. I think the clipper was squeezing the claw and causing pain even if I didn't get near the quick. And her claws are black so that doesn't help. Have you tried to train any of these things (including the muzzle) with rewards? I don't know if this dog is at all excited by food but there must be something he likes - ear rubs, praise, peanut paste? But if you have to pin him down while he screams - you're only going to make the behaviours worse. Send a PM to Aidan3 (that's his current incarnation). He's in Tas. http://www.dolforums.com.au/user/34354-aidan3/

yeah, I agree with that - that's why I was suggesting they get a vet note to say it's ok. Tho I know that some vets are in the "dodgy breeder" category too. So that's not a 100% guaranteed way of fixing the dodgy breeding practices either. I think some changes would be better than leaving things as they are. Given that even when animal neglect and cruelty cases look really obvious from the outside - they get really hard to prove when people get to court with lawyers and I think a few changes would fix that.

could we agree on requiring the breeder to make sure all the puppies are micro-chipped before they can be rehomed... ?

So are all the responsible breeders who think that a puppy should stay with the mother and litter until 8 weeks - wrong. Some of the small breed breeders argue for 12 weeks because that way they send out a more robust puppy... I think there must be some way of pointing to a puppy farm with 300 bitches and 2 human staff and saying - that's wrong. I think it's wrong. Somewhere between 1 human and one bitch and that - there is a shade of grey... so you keep stepping towards where it's a bit more black - and outlaw that. Is registering ten litters from one facility a year ok or wrong? Or having 10 different litters of puppies available all the time of various breeds - does that result in good conditions for the bitch, dog and puppies and then a well adjusted puppy going to a new owner? Always? Sometimes? Never? It depends? What happens to these puppies if the breeder doesn't sell them all? Would banning puppies in pet shops (or broker equivalents) work? A bit? What about banning puppies being sold at markets? Or anything that means that a browsing shopper - can see those big brown eyes and fall in *lurve* and buy a flea ridden bad mouthed bandy legged ball of white fluff?

My council does this. I think it's easier on the ranger and costs less than locking the dog up until the owner pays the fine. I agree - I don't want to see the good breeders doing the right thing punished for the bad actions of some breeders. And I also agree about the rules relating to concrete breeding pens and hosing them out every day. Yes if they're being farmed intensively - you'd need to do this but if it's one litter in the breeder's home... and that can be kept clean - I'm all for that. They're even putting carpet in hospitals these days so it must be possible to keep those environments sufficiently clean. It is a bit like all dogs being banned from the park because some owners don't pick up after their dogs. And that's a clear and measurable offence that strangely does not get enforced... I think I'd make it that dogs have to be on lead at the park after dark because I suspect that's where the majority offences are happening - owners can't see their dogs pooping and what they don't see they don't have to pick up (hope they step in it - karma crap).

yes, most accidents I've seen with Labs is when they're excited and playing chase the dog, and don't look where they're going. Making a lot of noise on your part will help a dog that's not looking - avoid a crash because they will hear you yelling (I tend to yell OI OI OI and bend my knees...). My dog makes herself into a pancake on the ground when she sees an excited lab blasting up. She has a sneaky habit of wiping off a pursuing lab by dodging around a human and the lab crash tackles the human. So I don't let her zoom through groups of humans. With the door thing. My dog is prone to getting very excited at the front door. Especially if the door bell rings. So I have played impulse control at the front door too. Ie she has to be nice and calm and wait for permission word and not blast out (barking is worse)... if she does that, if she is at all excited (hacklebacked) even if she's quiet, I will drag her back in and shut the door and make her start over. I reckon you could combine that with someone to ring the door bell and do some training there too. It got really bad - the blasting out the front door - because I figured she was on lead and it didn't matter... but it does matter. Much better to have a calm dog going out or when you open the door. I am a bit naughty when it comes to door to door sales guys but they don't come much any more. I've got a do-not-knock sign on the door. So the only ones I get now are the "free brake service". yeah right.

Steve if all breeders were more like you - then maybe what you say would be fair. But it doesn't really offer much to solve the problem of puppy farms supplying pet shops with puppies bred with no concern for their environment, their parents' environment or the future of the puppy - behaviour wise. It is reassuring to read that most of these dogs would benefit from training - and councils do offer discounts for owners who get their dogs trained to a very basic level. Making it harder for people to dump their dogs - is not going to solve problems into the future unless we change the laws about where you can take dogs - eg to the retirement village, or on the bus so that someone who can't stay in their current home and can't drive any more can still care for a dog. Maybe a lot less dogs would get dumped if they changed the laws about rental properties - ie that prospective tenants cannot be excluded if they have pets and they do not have to disclose up front if they do have pets. I think if it was only about unwanted dogs in shelters that's one thing. But for me - it's about providing easy to measure and enforce ways to make sure that things like Oscar's law events do not happen. Or are easier to stop. Personally - I'd like to see the rows of dog runs with breeding dogs and puppies that do not get nearly enough people time to be friendly - be banned. Maybe puppies removed from that kind of environment at 6 weeks do better - but they don't do as well as the ones that stay with their litter (not their breeder, their litter), until they're older. The stress on a puppy removed at 6 weeks is HUGE. And then you're depending on the training skill of a new owner. Who if they had a clue would not have bought a puppy from a pet shop or puppy farm in the first place.

I think you write some conflicting things - he's really laid back and not phased by anything. And he gets over excited when meeting new people etc. So he's phased (excited) by new people. I deal with excited - good happy and excited - angry scared - the same way. It's all about teaching impulse control and gradually increasing the excitement level so your dog can practice staying calm and in control in front of something really exciting (in a good way). So pay attention to everything that gets him excited (besides children) and see what you can do to use those as distractions when you're trick training. Eg train the trick like a really nice drop stay - somewhere not exciting like the lounge room? Then up the excitement - and ask for a nice long sit stay - in front of his dinner. Ie he can see his dinner, he's excited about dinner time - ask for the sit stay - time how long he can do it before he goes over the top and either tries to steal his dinner or starts barking or just loses it in some way. That's your threshold. put him back in the sit stay - start over but release him almost straight away... so he knows what the job is and you reward with something really great like his dinner. So places where there are lots of new people and you can take a dog - eg footy games. Stand far enough that your dog can still pay attention to you and ask him to do all the tricks he knows, then move a bit closer and repeat. As soon as he gets excited and stops listening - you know where his threshold is (in that place) and you can work on the edge of it - further away, closer, further, closer but gradually getting closer while he's calm. Keep it short and easy. Beware of kids that will barge up to you to say hello. Some will ask nicely and you might be able to use that as a training opportunity if they're with their parents.

What I did with my dog when introducing her to small children was ask her to hold a nice drop stay, show the kid where it was safe to pat (chin, chest, back) and prevent the kid from poking my dog in the eyes. Toddlers go straight for the eyes for some reason. And I have to keep telling them "not a toy". Any inappropriate behaviour from either and I separate them (move the dog away fast). It helps if you have a child wrangler to help (parent) and you concentrate on the dog. Explain everything and show everything as you go and it's all good. Ie the child wrangler will know what you're doing and why and help prevent eye poking and nose poking and kisses and hugs. And definitely always supervise. A 40kg dog zooming around - can break an adult by crash tackling them, let alone a small child. You could possibly teach your lab some body awareness tricks and some kid pleasers too. Like shake hands, licky, back up, and perch work (put your feet on the phone book wrapped in a towel)... drop and roll over are good too - but watch the paws during a roll over ie a dog needs a bit of room for that one or they can punch a kid's head on the way round. Nose targeting and leg weaves - tho he might be too big for that. Are fun. Do not let the child sit on or ride your dog. Not a toy. Avoid hugs and face to face contact on the initial meeting too. pay attention to what your dog says about that, lots of lip licking when there's no food, and looking away... are signs of stress and time to end the interaction.

Steve That's what the RSPCA said about the milk. I didn't do any extra scholar.google.com to see if it's supported. I have a vague feeling that immunity is mostly passed along by the milk in the first couple of days and not so much after that. But I could be wrong about that. As for the 6 week, 8 week thing... I'm just not going to agree that 6 weeks is ok with a puppy intended to live as pet in someone's home. I'm just going by what I see at our local parks and beaches. The ones that don't get enough time with their litter - don't know how to behave, they do all the things that study said - bark too much, bite too much, have separation anxiety and get attacked or bullied by other dogs. Combine that with new puppy owners who are also a bit clueless and get no support from the breeder (because it's a puppy farm)... and you end up with a dog that never gets to leave the back yard. I'm living next door to one. And I can point out heaps of others in my burb.

Bit puzzled about how they think those rules would stop dog attacks - especially if the council norm (Victoria excepted) was not to enforce.

There was more than one study that claimed different and they were not all quoting the same source for that info. I would agree that a puppy taken at 6 weeks to a puppy broker and then a pet shop glass box - has the worst chance of being a well adjusted puppy. And it would do better if it went at 6 weeks to a home with people that are home most of the time. It's not going to do so well if everyone is out from 8am to 5pm. Those ones can get very fearful - or it makes the nervousness they were born with worse. But the puppies that do best are ones that live with their litter and their mum in the breeder's home (not out in the paddocks in sheds away from people), and go to their new home at 8 weeks or older. That is a point - if breeders knew they could not sell their puppies to pet shops or brokers - that might do a lot to cut the profit out of it too. But with the internet classifieds - breeders don't need brokers or pet shops as much as they used to. And puppy buyers do not have to learn anything about puppies before they get one.

I know you have something, but I use one of those big flexible plastic tubs from variety stores or hardware stores. In it I put a bag for food, a bag for toys, a bag for admin / record keeping / saca folder and poop bags. I also put in it a drink bottle for me, and a drink bottle for her and sometimes her drink bowl... I also have a sample square of astro turf for targeting practice. And I empty it out and repack it fairly often because it seems to accumulate leads and hats and coats and the toys escape and wander into the bottom... and some of the food does the same. Dog loves helping with the repack. The good thing about this kind of tub - is that if a horrible dog with an a-hole owner - should pee on it, it's easy clean up. And yes - when I'm training other than at dog club - this happens.

Well done DDD.

Steve It is pretty easy to find stuff on the net about the problems associated with removing puppies from their litter and their mother at 6 weeks. The RSPCA says it adversely affects their immunity. http://kb.rspca.org.au/How-old-should-a-puppy-be-before-they-are-adoptedpurchased_311.html But this one sums up the most damming problems. That puppies need to be with their litter until at least 8 weeks AND they need lots of human contact at the same time - so that they grow up knowing - good doggy manners, bite inhibition, how to play nicely with others and not to be scared of humans. Ones taken at 6 weeks to a pet shop - are far more likely to have behaviour problems. Most of the studies I looked at were based on interviews with puppy owners doing training with their puppies. And doing training - helped reduce the chance of puppies ending up in shelters - but the problems arrived with the puppies and are PREVENTABLE in most cases by the breeder. It's a bit hard to compare a Maremma or livestock guardian which is not originally bred to live as a family pet - unless the family lived in the barn with their flocks... dog to dog manners and even human friendliness is much less important with a dog that lives with its herd out in the paddocks. I would guess a Maremma that understands and speaks "dingo" would be a better guard dog than one that doesn't. And if it leaves the litter too young - it's not going to be as good at reading signals like "I'm no threat" and sending ones like "piss off, these are my sheep".

It's clear to me that we have puppy farms in South Australia - two that I don't like are actually registered with ANKC. And they do things I think are inappropriate for the breeds they have. And there's plenty more who sell sick puppies out of their car boots. And people buy those puppies. People who can walk into a pet shop and impulse buy - don't always think about the consequences of their actions. Don't see too many of them here because they get hounded for mentioning "designer cross breed" names and buying from pet shop. Another forum I hang out at - we get about three or four of these puppy owners seeking help a week. And it's not a very active forum. Another forum I hang out on - tech based - has an off topic section that also gets people asking for help, they bought a puppy with no idea about the impact it would have on their lifestyle. They should have bought a gold fish. Saying that they should not be allowed to take their puppy to a shelter and "dump it" is only going to increase the number PTS at the vet (which is horrible for the vet), or the ones mistreated and neglected at home. It's like saying no more divorce allowed because that increases the divorce rate. Well hello - people who feel they are trapped in their miserable marriage are also more likely to suffer abuse of various sorts. I would just like laws that provide easy to measure and prove conditions to good dog breeding practice. It's all very well to say we have animal welfare laws - but they are difficult to measure and enforce. As for the health testing of parent dogs - I think if there is some measurable expense added to the cost of breeding - that it will be done less by those with two whole dogs looking to make a quick buck out of their pets. Not if they have to microchip every puppy and keep them until they're 8 weeks not to mention - do the DNA tests. And maybe hip scores on breeds prone to problems - tho the research is still inconclusive as far as I know to how well a good hip score in the parents means good hips more likely in the puppies. You can still get a puppy with dodgy hips. But I did say the limit on the cost should be for the first year (or other time limit) and to the cost of the puppy. And if things go wrong - the money should go to the treating vet not the owners (unless the puppy dies of the breeder caused problem). What I would like the legislation to do - is to take the profit out of dodgy breeding practices.

I couldn't get Rural Pug's link to work - too much facebook tags stuck to the end of it and the page wouldn't load. but this one did. If people want to share with not dol members. http://www.caninenation.ca/archives/primecontent/guest/the-project-dog

I took my puppy to my favourite vet. They held the puppy classes after clinic was closed so there wasn't anyone else coming in and they held it in the front area which was cleaned and disinfected. And my puppy was in the middle of her three vax boosters ie she got the last two at that vet, including one after puppy class. There is a risk but I'm sure if the vet had a dog in there with suspected parvo or anything else we vaccinate for - he would have cancelled the class or done an extra thorough scrub down. And being at the vet - bonus - if any of the puppy pre-schoolers look sick - he's right there to check up and isolate - but that didn't happen in our class. I learned a lot, puppy learned a bit. There was only four puppies and usually two vet staff supervising. No fights tho we were told how to break up fights before we let the puppies greet each other.

Here I think you can appeal to state court to override council directives / bylaws. Council are supposed to comply with our local government act but are frequently confused about what "providing for the needs of residents and rate payers" means. And both State and Local will cater to big corporations and stomp all over residents in the process. A lot of state law including the Australian road rules - which each state had to pass their own version of (so much for national)... allows for councils to make local rules eg about allowing parking on verges in some areas instead of the national no parking on road verges which can be very dangerous in some places. So it's probably similar with the Local Government act in combination with the dog and cat management act - there might be something in there that allows them to make additional requirements or freedoms on top of the state laws. I think our council has a 2 dog limit but you can apply to have more dogs, and if the neighbours are agreeable then that's fine. What they don't want is the animal hoarder in suburbia with 50 noisy dogs or more on one house block all living in fleas and dog poop.

Someone has put a sign up at Almond Tree Flat Reserve at Warwick St, Largs Bay saying that they are putting baits out because there's dog poop there. Police and RSPCA are investigating. I hate when people don't pick up after their dogs but I'd rather post them their dog poop than this.

Why - because if the dog is rehomed or separated from its litter at 6 weeks it never learns good dog to dog manners. They're the ones that barge up to unknown dogs at off lead parks and jump on them. http://thedogsnobs.com/2013/07/30/your-dog-isnt-being-friendly-hes-an-asshole-and-so-are-you/ Not in SA there aren't. Or the ones they have are unenforceable - too vague. There are definitely some genetic problems that can be prevented with current tech eg PRA - if the breeders are not testing for those - in my opinion - they should not be breeding. It's true there is some grey in how far you go with putting the onus for healthy puppy on the breeder but some breeders are outrageous. Yeah but if it costs them more than they get back by doing it - there is no incentive. It's like if you had to pay to go to work somewhere instead of company paying you to work. And usually the first two weeks - you don't get paid - so you do spend some money up front but you get it back at the end of your pay period. But if the cost of going to work exceeded what you could make - you'd either be a "volunteer" or you would not work there. The current pattern with "selling puppies" here is if the breeder hasn't sold them by the time they're 14 weeks old - they give them to a pet shop, if the pet shop doesn't sell them - they dump them with rescue like AWL or RSPCA - at 5 months old roughly. And then they're really hard to home. If it was true that all puppies got sold to responsible owners... there'd be no puppies or dogs 6 to 12 months old at Rescues and Shelters. "Registered" under this proposed legislation means with Government or local council. Not ANKC or MDBA or PIA

Susan's freecallers will include the critical core so stuff like its yer choice collar grab crate games call once game http://www.brilliantrecalls.com/freecallers-sneak-peak.html release day is June 29th (Toronto time).

6 months - cool. The original cheap version of recallers - which included all the games - was 3 months. It was pretty intense tho. Once it got rolling there was a new game every day... and too bad if your foundation was a bit flakey and really too bad if your dog would not fetch a tug. Sigh. They've come such a long way since then, with lots of tug alternatives and also how to train the tug and FAQ for the things that go wrong with us "normal" dog owners.

here's another one in a basketball stadium She's taped up all their feet, and a couple of them have "what did you do to my feet?" moments... Samantha Valle and a bunch of farm dog cattle dog mixes

I've got mixed feelings on desexing. I'm happy for there to be a registration discount for a desexed dog but some dogs need to be desexed much later than the current convention for good bone and joint development eg 18 months old (not 8 weeks like my dog). I do think that owners should get a licence before allowing their dog to breed. And if a boy dog jumped a fence to get in with the bitch - then maybe the boy dog's owner could be (equally) liable for something. The fine for breeding without a licence? Given it's possible to use DNA tests now to prove which dog was the father of each puppy. The fines should cover the costs of DNA tests... I don't think a responsible owner who doesn't intend to breed and manages their dog so it doesn't - should be forced to desex their dog just because some people are reckless with their dogs and breeding. It's like saying nobody is allowed to have a car because some people deliberately drive dangerously.