Cosmolo

Agree Aidan ETA- Aidan i'd love your thoughts on what i mention above- whether it's an issue you encounter and what you do to get around it? Perhaps for another thread though.

Mita while i haven't conducted studies I can answer part of your question. Dogs with a strong reinforcement history for 'bad' behaviour require X amount of repetitions of CC (for example) to overcome previous R history and develop new R history for the correct behaviour. We then need to determine how to get the required # of reps to change the behaviour. I find in SOME either small dogs (with small stomachs) or dogs who do not require much food for sustenance, I can't do the required # of reps with food without them becoming full or fat- i need to look at other options, either by finding an alternate source of motivation or considering the use of an aversive- with an e collar the removal of the low level stim is reinforcing so it can be useful when other reinforcers can't be utilised.

I am not a BC person and aside from my experience training clients dogs I have 5 of my own that are all different. 2 are herding mixes, 2 bull breeds and one terrier. The one with the best recall is the terrier who was taught using classical conditioning- he is the first of my own that i used this method with and it has been very successful. We do maintain a high level of reinforcement though in order to maintain the behaviour. This is another consideration- many people are not willing to maintain a certain level of reinforcement- they want to 'wean off rewards' etc. For dogs who find certain behaviours difficult, they will require a higher rate of R to be maintained in order to maintain the behaviour at that level. There is nothing wrong with this. Training is never finished and that is okay. Some (talking generally here) seem to think you have to get to a point where you don't have to reinforce the dog- this is simply not the case. Behaviour that is not reinforced is subject to extinction procedures- ie, it will stop. Reinforcement history and rates of reinforcement should be addressed FIRST before reaching for an e collar or similar. If an e collar is required to create a particular behaviour, it should be used to then allow you to create the reinforcement history required to maintain the behaviour without the e collar. (I am NOT talking about working dogs). One of my dogs adopted as an adult would NEVER have become reliable off lead without an e collar due to a number of issues she had. We made the decision to use the e collar to create the behaviour of coming to us but then worked hard to build her reinforcement history. Her recall is pretty great now and she hasn't had an e collar on in years- it's the reinforcement history that has maintained the behaviour, not the e collar.

I don't understand the argument of "when used correctly X technique is great". What is the likelihood of X technique being used correctly and what happens to the dog (ie- negative fallout) when it is used incorrectly are far greater considerations. I realise i'm repeating what i said earlier but i think it's important. If someone can't time a reward i certainly won't give them a tool that requires exceptional timing. I made a mistake a number of years ago where i was doing sessions with someone with their dog and an e collar. The dog was still on a long line and learning what the sensation meant etc with direction/ guidance from the handler. They were told not to take the dog off the long line in between training sessions. One day they did and the dog started running down a jetty towards a boat. The owners panicked and their timing was poor as a result. In 2 repetitions they taught this dog to run to the boat, the opposite of what they wanted. It was then a stressful experience for that dog when we had to undo this. Not fair on the dog at all. I am now extraordinarily careful about recommending e collars to people- i find classical conditioning exercises yield just as good a result in MOST cases. The only issue I have had with R+ training in this way is where the number of CC repetitions required exceeds what is possible/ practical for a given situation.

Bart Bellon is awesome. We went to a seminar of his years ago and learnt alot about e collar training methods- he was exceptional.

Have someone show you how to use the e collar PROPERLY.

Like Nek said, it's entirely possible he is looking at things going on outside rather than 'waiting for you'.

Disagree with you there Nek. I have used e collars and really like them for many different situations. But i do think they are a high risk piece of training equipment for the average person. Alot of people tout the line "when used correctly an XYZ piece of equipment is great"- this is true. But what is the probability of that piece of equipment being used correctly in that persons hands AND what happens to the dog when it is used incorrectly- these are both considerations to me. JMO

I 100% agree with what Megan said. Supervision is not the only factor Poor baby and poor family.

Same for us- we had two dogs attack our ACD x and she was badly injured. Had that been our JRT he wouldn't be here.

He doesn't do that when you're home because he has other things to do- following you around, playing, watching you etc. When you're not there there is nothing to watch inside so he looks out. Highly unlikely to be separation anxiety.

Having small dogs is very eye opening- your margin for error is just so small.

Hockz- those girls are stunning. I really like that type. Why would they not fair well in a show ring? What point of the standard do they not meet? Genuinely interested as i am not experienced at all in interpreting standards and comparing them to the dogs in front of me.

It's not just people who have a phobia of dogs or woth reactive dogs who get worried when seeing an off leash dog in the distance in areas where they are not supposed to be. I expect to see off lead dogs in designated parks/ beaches etc and if they approach without the owner asking that's okay when the dog is friendly. I'd prefer they asked in a perfect world but it's not a perfect world and this i am fine with and accept. However if i am walking down the street and see an off lead dog coming, i will do what i need to do to avoid it. I have no idea whether the dog is friendly, aggressive, rude etc. No idea whether the owner has effective control. And i'd rather not have my dogs within striking distance when i find this information out.

Pockets do you have some photos of the same dog, not stacked that you'd be willing to share? Interested to see the difference stacking makes to the shape of the dog.

I have three from 8 dogs i have had that i would call heart dogs. Very lucky.

While i don't have an issue with high prices for specialist services, my recent experience with a specialist was such that i came away believing that once they had my money they could not have cared less about the dog. The service received was so terrible that i made a complaint- to which i have received no reply. That, i have an issue with.

Terrible set of circumstances. With regards to suing- i am split down the middle. I went after a company and won after their gross negligence nearly killed my horse and has resulted in ongoing soundness issues, more than 15 thousand dollars in vet bills and a serious reduction in the horses value. Would i do the same thing in a situation with a dog where the financial impact is not the same? Maybe.

Thanks i thought so and asked them for clarification but didn't really believe their answer..!

In store minimax

There is a website that sent me some advertising info and I am trying to find out more information about them and their founder. They assure me that they do background checks on advertisers etc to ensure they aren't advertising puppy farms etc but i'm not sure yet. Does anyone know Dr Rod?

I understand the desire to weed out those without the experience for such dogs. But you also need to remember that experienced dog people have had more experience reading ads and become wary of certain phrases- especially when they occur without further explanation at that point.

So hang on a second. If that is the case does that mean that the potential adopters don't have to go through GAWS application procedures and policies then?

No ragdolls, pugs or cavs on the GAWS website. Which store was it?

It's not about being the dogs 'fault'. It's about certain breeds having drives and tendencies that are not suitable for the vast majority of people. While I have issue with retrospective BSL laws, i don't see a need to introduce dogs on the banned list that are not already here unless for specific and necesary purpose.