Erny

MrsT ..... Welcome to DOL and thank you for posting. There are many people who will go to bed with lighter hearts for your up-date. If the well-wishes coming from here are to count, your new family addition will bounce to full recovery in no time. That is certainly what we all hope for and it is good to see in your pup's eyes his faith in 'hope' restored . And his name is ...... ?

I'm concerned about him being in the "garden shed". Aside from anything other reason, garden sheds normally contain all the gardening pesticides. A dangerous place for puppy to be.

I don't see 'nothing' in his eyes. I see hope. That's the part of dogs that amazes me. I think 'hope' is the very last thing they let go of. This is from a 'coffee table' book I've recently purchased : "A dog's demonstrative behaviour, far from indicating any inability to reason, is a measure of their enormous compassion, optimism, hope and a capacity for forgiveness that should leave us all withered with shame." I say "amen" to that, for it is so true. The book is "Why Dogs are Better than Cats" .... . The author is Bradley Trevor Greive and the book contains lovely photographs by Rachael Hale. I hope this little guy makes it and lives long enough to know the comfort, care and humanity that humans are capable of. I agree with the poster who suggested that perhaps the pup has been lost. I hope so. I feel ashamed at what insidious things some people can and will do to animals and we've heard so much about these things of late I am very concerned inhumanity is on the increase rather than the opposite.

Hey! I remember Gammawash! We used to bath our dog in it too. BUT ....... a friend of mine's father died as the result of washing his dog in a flea chemical substance. I can't say it was Gammawash because I can't rightly remember. It was one of those rare things, but it turns out he was allergic to it and it caused a violent reaction which led to a heart attack, which was, at the end, what actually killed him. In defence of the more modern parasite protections though ...... Our (childhood) labrador suffered something terrible from flea allergy. He was often shaved by the Vet on his back where the excema from their irritation (and his constant itching) became infected. I remember there being the first ever product come out that was given orally (it was a liquid and you squirted it in their food - I think it was daily, although I can't be sure if I remember correctly) and it was the only time that we were able to control the fleas that he consistently picked up. After a while we stopped giving this to him and the problem didn't seem to return. But we'd also moved properties and I think the flea infestation related to the soil condition where we had previously lived. So whilst I think our modern remedies/preventatives definitely have their use and their place, I think they do need to be used more judiciously rather than merely as an everyday thing that we do because the advertisements (and some Vets) tell us that this is the 'norm'.

Thank you, BM. I am following up on the Shootag company also.

How much and what sort of exercise (physical and mental) does he get on a daily basis now that he is with you? How much and what sort of exercise (physical and mental) did he get when he was with your brother (on a regular basis)? IE .... What is his lifestyle like (before and after your ownership)?

You know ..... good ol' ordinary mineral water (as opposed to tonic water) that you buy in the supermarket. It's not to say the mineral water will contain everything or all, but I do know of a few people who used it as an indicator of whether the dog was eating dirt through habit or whether they were only doing it because they were attempting to self-supplement. It's a cheap, sometimes successful but not necessarily reliable 'test'.

What do you mean by "looking like dirt". I'm imagining a stool that comprises a good part of dirt through and through. Is that what you mean? If that's the case, I wouldn't think that's good (although better out than in, so to speak). That both dogs are doing this indicates to me a possible dietary deficiency. She could try giving the dogs some mineral water. I've not needed to do this myself, but I know of others who have and their dogs stopped eating dirt as a result. If this improves the situation then it indicates diet does need to be adjusted.

Hope it goes well for you and serves your purpose (your training in general, Corvus .... not just the flirt pole game you play).

Yep. Sorry - but I missed that as an explanation of what Corvus was doing. Thing is, I didn't see her dog switching out of drive. A dog can still be in drive and drop simultaneously, so in the exercise as demonstrated by Corvus, I don't see drop as an "off" switch to anything, other than merely a position the dog has learnt that will get him what he wants (ie for the ball to come alive again) .... and with the way it is being taught I can see her achieving the opposite of what she is seeking. If what Corvus seeks is merely an automatic drop as a classically conditioned response, then yes, I see that the exercise she is doing doesn't much matter. But if what Corvus seeks is a switch out of drive, then I'm having trouble seeing how that exercise, with that timing, is going to achieve that.

.... Go away, Kavik !!!! LOL On a more serious note though, and perhaps relevant - using the laser pointers etc. can lead to obsessive compulsive "disorders". And perhaps the same might be said of chasing balls, or birds or whatever, from whence they do not get a drive satisfaction. "Disorder" might be somewhere different to the discussion of what we would consider "normal" responses (be that a cessation/reduction of behaviour -vs- increase of behaviour, due to no-wins -vs- wins).

I'm thinking there's two different things you are describing there, Aidan. One is "Successive Approximation". In other words, rewarding for the responses that are the closest to the desirable behaviour that you want, ignoring the behaviours that are furthest away from that goal. Continuous Schedule of Reinforcement is reinforcement that occurs for every time of the desired behaviour. You can use Continuous Schedule of Reinforcement with Successive Approximation. You can use Continuous Schedule of Reinforcement without using Successive Approximation. Yep - it's all this training termonology again . I know what you're saying, but maybe because we are talking different words for different meanings, I'm not understanding your point. IE I'm not sure how all of this goes back to the "Flirt Pole" and its use as shown in Corvus' clip, and the point she made about not giving wins, and me querying that.

I think the answer to this is working out what the dog's goal is.

My highlights. I agree about the letting the dog win ..... that was my point in the first place. But if the dog wins even more often than just "every so often" then this has to increase the dog's drive even more, no? Just to be clear, for training purposes, I'm not talking about making every 'win' easy (and "easy" is subjective .... it depends on the dog you're working with), as with the work I and many others do with their dogs, we want to inspire them to work for the 'win'. Are you talking about variable reinforcement, or intermittent schedule of reinforcement? - I am presuming the latter. (It's probably just my termonology - but I tend to refer to variable when I'm talking about low value reinforcement compared to high value reinforcement, as opposed to how often the dog acquires reinforcement.) Intermittent schedule of reinforcement does make the behaviour less prone to extinction. But "intermittent" in the sense of 'rarely' isn't necessarily the ideal for training purposes and I thought that Corvus put up the video clip to show the (her) use of the "Flirt Pole" as a training aid. Which is what got me puzzled.

Bokezu ..... I am very sorry for your loss, but applaud you for the courage of your efforts to help your boy. He's in a good place now and I hope that he has met up with my RR (avatar) girl who waits me on the other side of the bridge. RIP Jordan. I too have my girl's collar and tag. It is very special and silly as it might seem, I do not use it on my current boy. He too will have his special collar made up, just as I did for my girl. In the early days after saying goodbye to my girl, her collar and tags came with me and I too took comfort from this and I suspect that one day, when it is my current boy's time to say goodbye, his collar and tags will hold their special place and offer that comfort in the early raw days of parting, as well. My heartfelt condolences to you and your OH.

Yes, perhaps it depends on the dog. My boy used to be hell bent on chasing birds. I've noticed over time (he's never caught any) that his interest in the chase is waning and his chase is no where near as strong for it as it was.

Does the training of greyhounds in the preparation phase include not giving the greyhounds 'wins' ? When I worked at a greyhound racing kennel (many moons ago, admittedly) the training and practice included 'wins'. I'm just saying be careful, Corvus, unless barking as a learnt behaviour to 'demand' the movement/throw of the ball is what you want. I noticed in the clip that when he barked (which was when you'd stopped the game) you then started up the game again which in effect is reinforcing the bark. Oh. I didn't see that in the clip. I think he won it only once (and I got the impression that was by accident). Hence what raised my query.

Be careful that you're not inadvertently teaching him to bark. Oh - ok, so this clip was just to show what a "flirt pole" is and not to demonstrate its proper use? I'm sorry - I'm a little lost. Does Leslie McDevitt demonstrate the use of the "flirt pole" (is that her name for it?)? Does she recommend use of it in the similar way for similar purpose as I've touched on in my previous post? ETA: Just saw your edit : Do you think that you would play a game over and over and over again for however many months or years in your life, never getting to win it but learning that the best your could ever do was to only 'nearly' win it, that you would continue to be enthusiastic about it? Maybe one day you could come and work for me (you'd have to learn not to argue ) and I will 'nearly' pay you , or maybe sometimes pay you, occasionally, mind .... just to keep you interested. So, for you, the flirt pole would teach 'chase', at best, albeit that it might be fun :nahnah:.

It is fancy, Bub. It is a reflection of your good training :D. And that's always 'fancy' . And doing 'real life' activities as a 'proof' is a big thing - especially stuff like packing up, as that's quite often interesting to dogs. Many people don't go much past the 'walk out, turn and face the dog' stage of stay work. Congratulations and well done :nahnah:. That's great work :p.

Didn't know that was called a "flirt pole". I am using similar with a dog who isn't keen to get in close to his owner for tug work (through prior training experiences I think the dog finds it a bit intimidating). But I let the dogs 'win' as I want to build their drive. Is there a reason why you don't promote winning Corvus? Or was that just that particular piece of video footage? Or maybe your dog just likes the chase only?

With time your heart will mend and you will know that he is still here because he is in your heart, and that your heart kept him safe while you grieved. And you will be able to look back and remember the wonderful times and the joy that you both shared. And you'll softly smile. And you'll know you still miss him, but the raw hurt has gone. You did a wonderous and selfless thing, DW. Hold onto that thought and know it to be true. RIP Diesel. Say hello to my girl, who waits for me.

Your dog's drive for it is probably not strong enough to overcome the intensity the training environment provides. Go to training, but train at a distance (might be a considerable distance to begin with) and get the 'tug' going at that point. Gradually (not in same session) moving in as your dog is able to concentrate more and as he begins to get 'hooked' on the idea of 'tug' at dog school. Make the sessions (both the obedience training component and the tug component) short and finish before your dog wants to. Also look at your tug : I tend to find that the firmer ones are better for dogs once they are 'into' tug. The softer ones are better as 'starters'. So, your dog might be in to a firmer tug at home, but might benefit from a softer style tug (yep, a sheepskin tug may do it) when at doggy school and not AS into it as normal.

Sure thing, Sas. With Mandela, the hard thing about reporting is that I need to give it some time before I can hazard a guess as to whether things are improving. Over such a long period it has been a case of ups and downs, with the only difference being how long the 'ups' last for by comparison to the 'downs' and how frequently the both occur. But I'll certainly let you know what the diagnosis is. Chances are, I'll need some help from you guys to understand it myself! :rolleyes: ETA: Sorry to the OP for wandering off topic and focussing on my own boy. I'll start a new thread, or re-fresh his old thread, for the reporting of the hair analysis test results.

Well ..... I still don't fully understand what or how they do it. But the cost is $90. The analysis covers all organ function. More tests will be required (assuming I continue with their suggested meds, whatever they may be) to follow progress, but the $90 is a once off. At the moment, Mandela has regressed. Gone off his food again and has broken out into skin rashes ..... with a suggestion that he's about to have a full on break-out of hives. I'm hoping the Calendula tea will keep them at bay though. But he's too thin and I do worry about him not eating his meals. Don't know if there's a pattern. He was on EP for about 6 months when the no-eating; loose stools; skin allergy symptoms began. He would eat a different EP diet for a short while, enthusiastically, but it was short-lived. He's been on his Allerblend diet for 7 months - now it's got to the point of no-eating. Skin symptoms seem to be starting all over again but with what I know I'm hoping I can prevent them from getting as bad or lasting as long. He will eat the VAN "Premium Choice" Adult food happily enough. I don't know if, like EP, that will be a short-lived preference also. My layman's thoughts are liver function. Wondering if it's not functioning properly and the toxins from the food (protein source) build up to the point that his body doesn't cope with it. A change in diet and things come better ..... until later . I dunno ..... it's just me thinking and I'm probably way off course. Doing the hair analysis is at least non-invasive so I figure it can't hurt to find out what the results come up as. I plan to take the required hair samples this coming weekend and send them off. Should know by middle to late next week.

You're welcome Cowanbree. I'm always happy to pass something like this on where it will help (and moreover where I know it won't harm). But the thanks really needs to go back to Dr. Bruce Syme, who is my boy's Vet in Castlemaine VIC. I was very on edge over the welfare of my boy when he burst out into a bout of hives that covered the most of his body. I went into the very human response of needing to do something NOW to fix them. Dr. Bruce was the one who kept me sensible, told me to get some anti-histamines to give to my dog IF he should start scratching to the point of damaging his skin, but to bathe in the Calendular Tea if I thought there was infection (which I find is generally what causes the redness). I think the act of me rushing to the Chemist and purchasing the anti-histamines relieved the old time human instinct to act now. And the Calendula Tea did the rest. The anti-histamines still remain unopened in my cupboard . I'm really glad I've been able to pass on a tip that has worked for me and that helps others as well . ETA: My boy's broken into a rash again and I too am using the Calendula to calm it. Has eased what was last night very red, pustulous and painful skin down to almost nothing. I'll give him another go now before bed and I think that should do it to let this lot heal. I'm still trying to work on what's causing this, but with everything I have done in the past 7 months under the direction of Dr Bruce, his skin has improved a lot and we've been able to avoid (*touch wood*) using drugs/chemicals as part of the treatment for the symptoms.