Erny

Fingers crossed here that you see some success/improvement inside the next week, WP.

Where there is an option I would rather the Australian made and produced brand. I don't think Sojo's is, is it? With the second one (the "Superfast Natural Home Dog Food") .... that's more the additive they are selling, isn't it? With you making up the actual food mix?

But that's exactly what some "camps" disagree on. So you see, even when you embrace them all (as I and others do), you are also simultaneously saying that those that don't are in your opinion incorrect. IOW, you are in the "embrace 'em all" camp :D ETA: Wow! That was exciting! Have only just noticed the new "group hug" emoticon and I got to use it .

I think you need to ask "what experts"? By that I mean, what do the "experts" who you think are "actively critical of him" or are "lukewarm about him" have in common? Could it be the training methodology they prescribe to that actually prevents them from acknowledging any good about him?

Difference being the specifics. I agree. And anyone who says "I am not comfortable with the notion of using an e-collar on dogs I work with even though I acknowledge that for some it can be used successfully without evil consequences" (or words to that effect) then I say "fair enough". If someone came out and said they felt the clicker was cruel (even when being used correctly) then I'd argue that concept out too .

Staranais always writes good posts .

"Hounded" though, Kavik? Questioned, sure. And probably by a reasonable number as many have had such good success with them, which is probably why it feels like being "hounded". And whilst we're on the subject - I don't think people have any concerns about people not wanting to use one. But it's when they make untrue/inaccurate statements about the e-collar as their reason for not wanting to use one, that will definitely bring the people who understand the e-collar more, out of the woodwork .

I am inclined to agree with Nekhbet on this - that your dog perceives itself as still controlling you. Why do you have to have a "bone, treat, filled kong in your hand" for her to go to the downstairs area? And I'd certainly not be inclined to throw any of these yummy rewards to her if she were barking at me. That in itself is an instant reward and reinforcement for her behaviour. Why not take her downstairs before people leave and if she has done so quietly, then leave her with one of those treats? You might be doing some of the leadership 'tactics' but it sounds to me that your dog is working around those and still perceiving that she does control and dictate your moves. Think about it - is it possible you are doing the 'leadership dance' but to 'her tune'? My disclaimer being that I don't know you or your dog.

Quite often the difference is that those forums don't permit for views which are contrary to what they prescribe to. And even if it does permit it, often a 'contrary' contributor is hounded down for their view without any discussion about the why's and wherefores and without entertaining any notion of having a conversation about your view point. DOL is different. All views will be discussed. A person might not like the fact that their view is dissected and discounted as a result, but at least it will be talked about. I've been an active participant on another forum and you can 'whisper' the words "e-collar" in a post ...... you should see the hoards running to the thread and their first words are one of ridicule, disdain and personal insult and attack. They ignore any description of the methodology you use behind the e-collar (eg negative reinforcement/low stim) and they yell you down with cries of "cruelty" "shock the dog" "fear" "high zaps" and so-on. And for every one of your posts, there will be an army of ten to guide attention away from the fact that you are posting matter of sense. They don't answer questions posed yet they will loudly demand that you answer to every one of their questions - and then grab hold of part of what you've said, quote it back and throw it in your face. They do everything they can to steer the thread off track and due to their numbers they are usually successful. I've been accused of having a mental disorder and so on and so forth. It does take some courage to speak out when you have a contrary view as when you're swimming 'against the tide' you risk feeling silly for your view. Usually that's a personal notion, I find and for the most part here (law of averages) the majority of people will either counter your view with the support of explanation, or will agree with it. Agree 100%. Generally any 'digs' is towards people who contribute in a fashion that is not congenial to the flow of the thread. But definitely, making it personal should be avoided. As I've mentioned above, sometimes that is the person's own fear and not the fault of the forum (ie the people who make up the forum). If anyone posts, they need to be aware they are writing publicly and therefore anything that forms the content of their post is open to challenge or refute. They need to be able to accept that. The backward and forward banter that many people refer to as 'argument' (in a negative context) is actually people working through the supportive debate/reasoning so that either a conclusion can be reached or so that others who are reading have a range of supported views available to be able to draw their own conclusions. With forums that are closed such as those which exist for (eg) 'positive only' discussion, learning IMO is limited as it is like talking to the converted. The best way to learn (again IMO) is to view a countering 'side' and begin to compare it with what you know (or think you know).

We don't know your dog but I agree that getting the trainer back and asking him to demonstrate what to do so you can see how the behaviour will improve would be an advantage. I'm not sure how you can keep her on lead and you leave at the same time. I'm puzzled by that, but regardless, I think your trainer/behaviourist needs to come back to help you. He has the advantage the rest of us don't in that he has met your dog. And you chose him for the lifetime guarantee he offers, so I'd utilise that .

There are numerous things that I could think of you trying but without seeing and knowing the dog I don't know if they'll prove to be a futile or even worthwhile exercise to do. It does sound like a control issue and your leadership work that you have put into place can do nothing but help you. The other things I have in mind relate to devaluing exercises. In other words, devalue the signals she is triggering off - have them not mean what she thinks they mean. What is she like, though, generally speaking? Is she always the hyper vigilant type? What is her general health like? What diet is she on? Coat condition? Weight (skinny/lean or fat)?

And there's a good chance that you begin to become stressed knowing that visitors (or yourself) are about to leave and the anticipation of your dog's behaviour. And then that rubs off on to her.

What's the first 'trigger' that sends her 'off' ? Visitors walking towards the front door? Or does she become aroused at earlier triggers such as visitors rising from their chairs and carrying that body language/making those movements that suggests they are going to leave? Have you tried walking her outside on lead before your visitors leave? Of course this would not be the be all and end all as it doesn't yet address the matter of you leaving the house, but it would be interesting to know whether her behaviour diminishes when this is done.

Have you tried putting her into a drop when people are leaving and/or when she is carrying on? IE Control her activity at the same time training her to a new one. When she is barking/carrying on as visitors leave, what's her body language indicating? Try using "TOT" program for meal times. It can prove to be a very powerful training and leadership technique. ETA: And I agree with Cosmolo (below). It really is best if you follow through with your trainer/behaviourist to advise (a) in what areas the techniques are working and/or not working and (b) to see if further advice may be given on those areas that need more help. Regular and frequent contact with your trainer/behaviourist informing them of progress/changes helps with them being able to 'tweak' programs they've set to suit what is occurring/changing.

Huski - Excellent post #34

Midnightmint ..... have you tried putting this question to NDTF? They would be the best ones to ask about RPL I think? Or have you put it to them but awaiting a response?

Did you get to a Vet today, Aussiedogs? How's your pup?

Ok - thanks for the clarification, but it was difficult to not assume you were directing to me given that I am a Pro-trainer and am active in this thread when you made that comment. And honestly - I'm not being and haven't been *touchy* and re-reading, I don't think my posts have come over that way. But the written word can be mis-read so I'll assume they sound that way to you, but please be assured that any *touchiness* that you detected was completely unintentional. That's ok. I know what you mean by "turns of the screw" and I guess the part that I'm trying to express is that trialling dogs are no different to any other dog whose owner aspires to accuracy and spontaneous, willing, happy and reliable command compliance. But we've done it to Seita again. Can we leave it off at that for the sake of this thread?

Prodigybxr - do you understand the concept of (a) Negative Reinforcement or (b) Low Stim? By your comment you don't seem to but it is worth checking . It's just that I don't think anyone has talked about "a dog being shocked for slow sits".

This is my supposed "blanket statement" that you say is untrue? It was made in response to a quote that used correction collar and e-collar in the same sentence, so one could only assume that the op wanted to use it in an aversive manner.....for a relatively easy problem to fix using her already established drive training. Previous to this post, I had not even mentioned an e-collar let alone made comment on whether various levels of stim may change the validity of my post. That was dreamed up by you guys. I wouldn't say "dreamed up" but obviously misunderstood by more than just me. Refer earlier responses from others where obviously it was thought you were saying that you can't combine e-collars and drive training. Ok - this one is about "slow sits" and wanting to fix the problem. You suggest I've never trained for that? Any others that I might have questioned on subjects I've supposedly "never even trained for" please point out to me, because I don't know which ones you're talking about. Secondly ......... how do I know who is a "highly experienced trialler" or not? Thirdly ........ do you think "highly experienced triallers" are above being questioned if someone has a valid reason for thinking or even knowing from first hand experience they might be or are wrong? Not even sure where that is valid in this thread. This is what you've said earlier (just putting it here so it is easier to reflect back to) : Which subjects have I commented on (not sure why I shouldn't comment anyway) that I "really know very little about" and which I have "almost never encounter[ed] in [my] profession"? I'm sorry Dogdude - I've often respected things that you've said in this forum, but what you've said above to my knowledge is uncalled for and in essence untrue. IMO no-one is above being questioned but it seems you do not share my point of view in this respect. And like Cosmolo, I'm not being *touchy* about e-collars, but given that you've raised the comments that you have above, I'm getting the feeling you're being *touchy* about something. Quite what, I'm not sure. I'm really sorry to the OP for this thread being taken OT as it seems to be, but I feel that the assertions Dogdude has made - assertions that are certainly not complimentary to people such as myself, Cosmolo or others who might be considered "pro-trainers" - warrant a response and refute at least until they can be evidenced and verified. Perhaps, Dogdude, you might like to start a new thread out of respect to Seita if you wish to continue this line with a response.

I'm hearing more and more where medication is being turned to with more haste than I would care for. Not just for behaviour ..... but for everything and anything, it seems. I'm not against use of drugs where they will best assist, but we seem to be jumping to the medicine cabinet faster and more frequently. Slightly OT but to give example to what I'm saying : Recent Vet attendance with her dog by someone I know. Dog has a clean injury. Vet prescribes anti-biotics. Friend asks why. Vet's response "to keep you happy". Huh? Another example but behaviour based : Fear aggro. Inside one consult much improved. Previous trainer/behaviourist suggested valium (which is not indicated for aggression anyway). Four lessons in and dog is vastly improved and only slightly reactive (reaction threshold about 1 metre and even then, not much reaction). No drugs. I'm not blowing wind into my own sail - but for this dog the question of drugs didn't even occur to me and you could have knocked me with a feather when I was informed of previous recommendation.

What Rappie said, and also a good "Power Walk" (where YOU take charge of the walk - no stopping unless it is for a proper toilet break, but then only one; no sniffing, save for when on the toilet break). Finish off the power walk (little dog/9mo .... ummm, a good half hour - would 40 minutes be too much for an under 12 mo little dog?- , depending on how you think he is fairing) with a game of ball/fetch/tug in the back yard. Oh - and TOT. 3 x daily.

when do you think any correction should be applied, when your dogs already flipping out or before he gets to that uncontrollable stage. Who were you quoting above, Nekhbet? I can't find it.

Thing is, I covered that in a previous post by explaining that I wasn't saying she had to have an e-collar to do it, but simply responding to things that could work with her problem. E-collar mention was after drive work suggestion. Then of course came the suggestion by Dogdude that e-collar work will knock drive out of the dog - and as a blanket type statement that's something I disagree about. It was afterward that Dogdude suggested that pro-trainers who don't trial shouldn't give advice to people who do trial with their dogs. I don't really understand that attitude, apart from in matters such as questions about trial ring etiquette, if it is that they don't know it.

Thanks Dogdude. Obviously I'm one of the pro-trainers that you refer to (as being one of the one's who advise/help others even though they trial their dogs and that because they do, then I shouldn't). Response to your second question first. My previous avatar girl (bless her cotton socks) had behavioural issues and although these were overcome in a big way, she would not have enjoyed the intensity of the show/trial arena one little bit. My current boy is 1 year old now. I am working on his obedience skills and my aim is to trial. In between his training he has been beset with some health issues which has caused some delays. I am pleased with how his skill training is coming along but he's not ready for the distractions of the show/trial arena. My question back to you (nicely) is however : Why do you suggest (and use the OP's situation as an example) that what has been suggested by me (ie look at drive training; e-collar, in the method I've described is an option that can be incorporated if possible) is not good enough for a trial dog? In otherwords, what is it that you think I need to know about trialling to understand where my suggestions are wrong? I've already explained that e-collar training used the way I've described is quite complimentary to drive training so the "knocks drive out of the dog" can't be part of the answer to that. (Well it can be, but it would be your opinion which of course you're entitled to. But I have first hand experience that tells me otherwise and can therefore attest to it.)