Erny

You've started bringing back the tug? If you're training in drive, where did the tug disappear in amongst your training regime? What did you use to provide her with drive satisfaction instead? Perhaps I misunderstand what you've written. Also, use TOT to help you.

You are training your dog whenever the lead is on.

Then I think you need to ask why she is anticipating another command coming immediately. If this is the case then it is a training issue and you need to remove her reason for the anticipation. Also you need to not reward her for the slow sits.

Training in drive promotes fast(er) command responses . Also, e-collar work (low stim - negative reinforcement) assists as well. But there is training behind this that would need to be done so your dog would understand what the stim was about and how to control it.

Don't be embarressed and I didn't necessarily mean you had to change it here, but thanks for doing so. What I really mean is that I think it would be a good thing if people became so accustomed to referring to it as a "Pressure Point Collar" (or PPCollar for short) both in speech (as well as in writing) the name would catch on more. But cheers, and thanks .

That's great, Paganman. But "PPCollar" :wink: . What it is called DOES count. Not because there's anything to hide, but I find that calling it a "prong" collar turns people off before you've even had a chance to explain to them what it is about; its effects. For this reason I think it would be very advantageous in the long term if people got used to referring to it as the "Pressure Point Collar". At least that way their minds have a chance of remaining a bit open - enough to then educate them on how it works on the dog. It's not me just being anal . ETA: Where have some of our emoticons gone? I notice that :wink: and ;) are both MIA now .

I'd just have pup on lead and collar. Have spot where pup may lay (ie mat) close enough to your chair. You sit down and simply hold the lead close enough to the collar to prevent him from making any jump up attempts towards you. Wait it out and essentially otherwise ignore him. He'll get sick of it if he's not getting anywhere. If he starts trying to mouth the hand that's holding the lead, either close your hand to a tight fist to make it harder for him or move your hand through to the top of his collar where he can't reach it. When he does give up on trying, leave it for another minute and whilst he is still on his mat not trying to get up on you, slip him a treat without too much fuss. Then be ready to do it all over again. He needs to work out the 'pattern' and that only comes with repetitions.

Get some private lessons. K9 Force ..... Kurrajong Heights in the Hawkesbury area. (ETA : Oops! Miranda already said this - sorry to repeat ) Only about 2 or 2.5 hours away from you. Would be worth its weight in gold for his instruction.

.... I think you just contradicted yourself from one post to then another.

No - by law, they are only banned from use in Victoria. However, there are some clubs/schools that won't allow them to be used on their grounds during training. But that is a matter of policy, not law.

IMO - engage a trainer AND at least discuss training equipment. It is no secret that I recognise and support the benefits the PPCollar ("Pressure Point Collar" also known to some as Pinch or Prong collar). Looks bad I agree. But contrary to what some people will tell you, it certainly isn't as bad as some other of the readily available and easily purchased training items which can be picked up even in supermarkets. But regardless of what training tool you use - it's always best if you engage a good 'all round' trainer to explain the tool to you (the good and the potentially bad) and to give you some tutoring/coaching on how to use it properly with your dog. A good 'all round' trainer should also be able to determine what training tool will work the best for your dog and yourself. I have had some clients who when they've initially had a lesson with me, I've kept them on their dog's flat collar (not that this is ideal for the dog either) until I've been a bit more assured that they're handling skill has improved sufficiently to be able to use a training collar properly. Sometimes I've even had them practice with the lead attached to some inert item such as a fence. This has worked just so as I can given them an idea about how to transfer the correct message through the lead. The latter is of course to save the dog from the mistakes during this initial practice. It doesn't take much until they have the idea. I have also had some clients who have said that the PPCollar in their opinion is what they needed, but when I've worked with them and shown them how to properly use the training tool THEY thought wasn't working (eg. Martingale or Check Chain) the dog has responded well. It was only that they weren't working the tool as it should have been. The PPCollar would have been fine (it is a collar that is IMO kinder to the dog physically than some others and I do prefer it to the Check Chain or even in some cases to the Martingale) but because of the difficulties and awkwardness that has been created by some organisations successfully pushing for and supporting it being banned from use here in Victoria (only place in the World where it is so banned), they've managed well enough with the Martingale or Chain that they already had, with the help of a lesson or two or three. It's isn't only about what your body does (eg. stop/turn) it is about what you do with the lead, how you do it and when you do it, that counts. (As an aside, a non-doggy friend of mine came over to visit me in recent times - haven't seen her for ages. She knew I had been heavily involved in submission to Govt to change our current dreconian law which bans the use of this very excellent training tool. Anyway, she wanted to know what the PPCollar was about, so I dug it out from the back of one of my cupboards to show her. She put it on her leg and tried tugging it - at first tentatively, then even harder when the first attempts didn't "do" anything. She looked at me with a "is that all?" comment. The collar's looks are certainly worse than its bite. I'd rather a good hard tug from a PPCollar than I would from a check chain or head collar.)

Corvus .... you always argue. You ask a question then argue with the answers even though you asked for them. And no matter the responses, you continue to argue the same argument. Are you like that at home to your parents? ..... I can imagine. The argument is won - it's just you don't seem to recognise when you've lost. And I agree with what has been written - no way would I 'play chasey' to my hand.

I've not long returned back for a walk and run at the park in the rain with my boy. It was actually super pleasant with no-one else around save for us and the water fowl . And Mandela went really well and also had a lot of fun running around. So I didn't even have "class" as a motivation. But if it were outside agility - I'd skip it. Too slippery. Too much unnecessary risk for injury. I think I deserve to now put my feet up, sit back and sip on a red wine. Wish the 'dinner fairy' would slip by to cook dinner .

I note I don't work for "focus" as often or as much as others do. I use TOT to begin this and the rest tends to follow naturally, provided I am not loading my dog by going too far too fast with distractions. So I don't really have 'tricks' per se to accomplish this. I also don't ask for focus when the dog IS in a situation where it is too hard/unlikely. Some how much emphasis has been placed on getting the dog's focus in times of high distraction as a 'behaviour modification method'. IMO, turning to look at you and hold your gaze whilst being under a passive command yet loaded by the activities in the immediate environment is danged hard for the dog and often fails. I don't train this way either. To me that is a 'trick' and one that is likely to wear off quickly and therefore also likely to fail. I will alter the position of a food treat pouch to encourage better position - but it doesn't have much to do with trying to get a dog under control in a high distraction environment IMO. And don't think for a second that just because your food treat pouch is on the other side of you that he can't already smell it and know it is there. As I mentioned - I think distance should be used as an advantage in achieving what you want to achieve in training. The food treats (assuming you give them) will be 'worth' more to the dog then, and this will help to retain their value. If there is some reason why I HAVE to be in a high distraction environment that my dog has not been trained up to, then I'd prefer to not worry about attaining the newer or more difficult exercises, I'd rather concentrate on my dog just settling down and tuning back into me. And that can be as simple as smart/quick loose lead walking exercises. In the earlier days, when I took my boy to class, it was only to get him used to being in the proximity of other dogs (and, amongst other things, understanding that did not mean play). I didn't do any of the exercises taught in class, other than lots and lots of loose lead walking exercise. I didn't ask for sit or drop or heel or look. I'd go a considerable distance out in the process of the LLW and then I'd produce the tug toy and have a game of tug. I did that with distance to begin with because I knew that his drive was not strong enough at the time to combat the other distractions (dogs). When he got better at this with the inclusion of sit/drop etc at home, I began to add sit to my "class environment repertoire". I'd practice the other things at home under minimal distraction. Perhaps easier for me because I am a trainer and although I might pick up some useful 'tips' from some instructors, I didn't really need to learn 'how to do it' myself. So I can appreciate how it can be difficult for you to learn if you're too far away. But if that's the case, be in a bit closer. Don't expect much of your dog - maybe a sit that you can hold him in so he doesn't break, and listen and watch the others. Then train for these new things back at home. Many people have the concept that their dogs are learning in class. As a spin off, to a degree they are. But IMO class is about the PEOPLE learning how to teach their dogs. The best place for the dog learning newer things is in the lower distraction environments. And then build up distractions and expectations from there. Some of what my dog does and does well at home, I don't expect that he's ready for when in a loaded state. So I don't ask for it. I'd rather work on his 'loaded state' to bring it down somewhat (LLW is good for this as there is no command involved; no finesse to position required), THEN ask for some of the obedience skills I've taught him under lower intensity environments. Sometimes, if I'm 'testing the waters' to see how much he'll give me (just the odd times of uncertainty) I'll ask for a handshake. If he doesn't give me that at least I've not weakened my expectation of command compliance to other IMO more essential skills. Rather than relying on tricks outside of yourself to tune your dog to, use yourself (your activity) to achieve this. Your dog is more likely then to tune into you rather than to the food you are carrying.

IMO his "inability to focus" is a matter of too high an intensity distraction that he hasn't been more gradually worked up to. Use your class as YOUR learning arena and then take home what you've been taught and work on the new things you've learnt. And use some of the class time to work on things that you have taught Demon at home and that he knows, at a distance from the other dogs in the class. In this case it is possibly that it was the poodle's behaviour (and maybe in a small part the way it looked ie unfamiliar). I use distance as my 'friend' and work my dog in easy exercises (ones that are well-known) and work up from there. I don't ask my dog to do things that I do not expect he is capable of doing when he is under 'load'. What I first do are basic things (as aforesaid) until that 'load' is not as much of a 'load' as it first was.

Office Works sell them. But I'm not sure that style would work for you because it relies on the button being pressed quickly and sharply to attain the louder 'ring' sound.

Thanks Huski. I do believe that's it .

I disagree. It is not on your terms because you express that you still have a problem with him biting you during the wrestle. So he's not playing the game to your rules/terms. If a person who had a dog who liked ball chasing and the person was playing 'retrieve'. The person started it. The person finished it. But in between the dog continued to run off with it. Do you think the dog is performing on the person's terms? Or another analogy : A game of football between people. The game started when the siren sounded (not before) and the game finished at the second siren. But in between times, one team broke all the rules of the game, king hitting members of the other team; excessively rough body contact. Do you think that team is playing to the terms of the game that were set by the people who made up the rules? I don't.

That's a very good point to raise. Many people with puppies 'think' their recall is in place, when really it is only that their pup is not independant enough at that age to want to ignore them. Although I tend to think the age to watch is 5/6 months and upwards. I agree. TOT will do this for you too.

If you have him on lead, then you have the control necessary to show him "recall means recall". And yes - be exciting and yes show/give him the reward that's in store when he comes over (even if you needed to use the lead to 'encourage' him) and then release him back out again. The "point" you seek is shown in your pup's recall responses. If he's not coming in less challenging situations, there's no point pushing the intensity of the challenge any higher yet. In the very early days with my pup, I rewarded him anytime he came over to 'check in'. No recalls behind that, just rewarding the fact that he volunteered to come over. That's really easy when they're pups as they tend to do that naturally, so I grabbed the opportunity to enhance that behaviour for 'later on' use. Sometimes when he was distracted by something else in the yard (which being a puppy, could have been something as simple as a flower on a plant; a leaf moving on the ground with the breeze - this latter being, back then, HIGH distraction level ) and off lead I would make noises - inviting noises. When I saw he was running on his way back to me and knew it was a 'given', I'd throw in the recall command. So in this, I set him up to 'win'. You do want to practice recalls when your pup is distracted as when you think about it, that's usually when we will need them to come back to us when later you are out and about. I did start with my pup's recall training using my hallway (which although I didn't plan it that way - it was something I didn't plan for when I was building, actually - is perfect for this sort of thing .... really long and narrow) with therefore obviously no distractions. This was only to get some 'word association' with the recall command happening. This is about using the dog's instinctual drive to the advantage of training. Prey drive involves chase and catch. Using a tug (I built up his drive first and got him 'addicted' to the game of tug) I would add in the commands I'd been teaching him. He was driven to chase the tug and catch it (I do not mean that I threw it - to the contrary, I remain in control of the tug). But learnt to know that his drive wouldn't be satisfied until and unless he responded to those commands. This includes the recall (in fact, is excellent for the recall). And because instinct (remember - this is an internal emotion which drives the dog) was on my side, it promotes fast command responses. There's a "Training in Drive" thread here on DOL, started by K9Force. I don't have the link to it but try a search using the DOL search engine in the training forum and it should come up. Or someone else might be able to put their finger on it for you - it's been referred to often when people have asked the same question as yourself. It is a lot of reading and fairly intricate but I think it will give you some insight to the topic.

That's not "your terms". It sounds as though he is confused. One moment you want to wrestle, next thing he's getting into trouble. Rather than that, I agree with Vicki - don't do the wrestling with him. Try tug; training in drive; stuff like that instead.

Don't recall unless you know your pup is likely to come. Otherwise you teach your pup that him being called to come doesn't mean he has to if he doesn't want to. Reward every recall well (not from your perspective, but from your pup's perspective). Train in drive . Set your pup up to win, not to fail. Be exciting/valuable from your pup's perspective. Be consistent. Don't practice recall to the point of boredom. Short training stints. When your pup recalls, reward and release him to go back to what he was doing (if that's suitable). IOW, don't always finish the fun on a recall. Be careful about taking your pup to off lead parks (or if he's not completed puppy vaccinations, ANY park). They are uncontrolled environments. You might be able to control your pup but there's not guarantee you can do the same of other people's dogs nor that they will or can of their own. Make YOU the centre of your dog's fun rather than pushing that privilege and benefit to other dogs. Otherwise you are likely to find that you'll have difficulties in the future in recalling your dog away from others.

I 'wrestle' with my dogs. But whilst it is play, I am also teaching them how not to 'go too far' and that includes NO mouthing. It depends on the dog in question - some dogs that I see when called out to a consult or private lesson have learnt to use wrestling (and rolling over tactics) to avoid doing something they don't want to do. For those dogs and for those people I generally caution against them continuing with it, until and unless 'harmony' (whatever problems are well and truly solved) resumes. But even then - 'wrestling' is to be on their (the humans') terms and that includes when it starts; how the 'game' is played; and when the game will finish. I run this game in the same manner.

And don't forget - it's colder weather now than it was. In some areas, enough to put many dogs who were 'sitting on the fence' with their toilet training, off from venturing outside. Of course, it's never a big deal when there's a game to be had .

No I hadn't heard of it referred to so specifically nor have I read anywhere (not to say it isn't written, but obviously haven't read up on it) that 20 weeks (5 months) is the 'magic marker' time where bladder control is sufficiently mature enough to be able to expect it. I presume that's what they are meaning by it. I'm only going by what I have found is reasonable expectation and even instinctively, 16 weeks is (if we're talking laws of averages here) fairly young to be able to expect and rely on the toilet training that has been done. But, when you think about it, around the 5 month mark would be a maturation period for many aspects of the dog. Entering adolescence is an obvious one - so it makes sense to me why bladder control could be part of that maturation process. Like you, my boy took somewhat longer and it is only in the last couple of months that he is trying to give me signals that he needs to go out (if the doors are shut). Of course my hard job is being able to recognise those signals (they aren't particularly overt). But I figure if he can learn to read me, then I will learn to read the signs he is trying to show that mean "let me out I need to go" and reinforce him by responding appropriately so that those signs will become more definite, more clear. Prior to that, if the doors were closed, he figured that meant "toilet inside". After all, what choice did he have?