Erny

A *bump* to level this thread with its explanatory 'mate'.

Yes - the submission is still very much alive and well . Numbers is what will continue to give this mission strength and to this end, I refer you to the post above and to post #175 in which I included THIS link from which you can access the petition/s. EVERY signature counts guys and it would be a boon if you would send the link around to everyone in your email address book whom you think might have an interest in signing it. Please note that there are moves afoot by other organisation/s to encourage Governments to disallow the PPCollar (aka "pinch" or "prong" collar) AUSTRALIA-WIDE. Your efforts now, although for Victoria, will assist for the State in which YOU live should the need become critical. Hugh Wirth of the RSPCA is seeking standard laws on a national basis. What has (and continues to) occured in Victoria is certainly not unlikely to occur in your home State. Please don't be complacent. That's what others are relying on you being. Cheers! Erny

Ummmmmm, well .............. "more interesting"? Maybe. I must admit, I think pups would be easier. You just get up and take them outside to wee and poo. Babies ya gotta do the nappy bit and they sick on you. :D ETA: Although I'm sure Haven's will be well trained

OMG!!! Thanks Rysup for pointing this out. Not that I am interested in any discussion about pinch collars :big grin:, but I have kind of been focussing on the discussion here and not people's sigs. Good luck Haven ..... and BTW - happy Birthday for a few weeks ago!!! Make sure you let me know when your baby arrives ................................. and when I can book him/her in for puppy socialisation classes!!! Seriously - I do wish you all the best and hope everything goes well for you all :D. Cheers! Erny PS - Rysup ..... sorry for the :D interlude.

I tend to think the opposite of this. I do not seek to train a dog to heel until it has first learnt to walk on a loose lead. I think the PPCollar will help you but I would recommend some tutoring (one-on-one is ideal) both before, during and after to ensure that your lead handling skills are what they should and need to be. Your dog's 'slinking' can be indicative of confusion, which generally comes from not having understood our training. This can be from numerous things, not the least being our timing of use of equipment and praise. I'd like to know that this has been checked before thinking about training equipment.

Sardog has said that cheese affects the scenting ability of dogs. I'm not sure how or why, as I've not been able to find any documented studies on it, but perhaps she would have more information on it? Given the work she does with her dogs, if anyone would know I expect Sardog would.

I know of a dog (staffy) that chased a roo ...... and the roo ripped her stomach for her trouble. She lived, but it was serious.

I think that the point is though, and as Erny alluded to, that the future of dog training may come under some threat under those influences that seek to ban some methods or tools that 'work, work, work' and we may not be able to legally use them for the best benefit or welfare of dogs. Ahhh, ok. LL - what do you mean by "proof is in the pudding" ????

Actually, I don't think it is necessary to have USED a tool to be able to ponder its good (or bad, depending on your view) uses, and to be able to join in on discussion about it. In fact, I'd prefer that, as to use a tool WITHOUT having discussed and perhaps clarified queries could prove detrimental and is often when tools (read : various training equipment types) are used incorrectly and from which false opinions are formed. It's not even necessarily wrong, having discussed at length the correct use of a tool, the way it works etc., to form an initial opinion as to whether one might be comfortable (or not) in proceeding to use it. The only thing (IMO) that is wrong is to decry a tool and impose this opinion to all and sundry (especially in the face of so much evidence which supports its beneficial use), unless broad experience with that tool dictates this should be so. From what I read, I don't think that is what Corvus is doing.

Hi LL I'm a bit confused by your post and what you're trying to say. Is it cryptic, or am I simply tired and not thinking clearly? Would you mind expanding to explain please? For example, are you trying to tell us that you know of past conferences by the IACP? If so, what do you mean by the "proof is in the pudding"? Is there something about IACP that we don't know and that perhaps we should? "What works WORKS" is a pretty broad statement (and a safe one ). I guess you could say with equal confidence "what doesn't work, doesn't work". But I'm still puzzled by what your point is here. Look forward with interest to your responding post and hoping it manages to clarify for me what you mean by the contents of your post. ;) Cheers! Erny

A good point, Squeak. When I read that position statement this was my interpretation : "That just because one is a qualified professional trainer it does not go to follow that you have the right to train in the name of "assistance dog training" in public areas where dogs normally are prohibited, unless that trainer was training under the umbrella of a recognised and authorised "assistance dog training" organisation (eg. such as "Assistance Dogs Australia")." However, I agree that this point is not entirely clear and re-reading the position statement after your comment, I recognise some area of ambiguity and that my own interpretation isn't exactly what it says. I think this is a point that could be easily clarified and if the intention is as per my own interpretation, also easily rectified with additional wording. Remembering too that the IACP is not an Australian based organisation so perhaps their "Position Statement" has been written to accord with the laws and issues they recognise in their own Country. Good call, though.

Willow - the point behind training with an e-collar at working level stim with R- methodology is that the dog learns via foundation training that it has the control to turn off the annoying stim by compliance to command. It increases compliance reliability and with that affords the dog more opportunity for off-lead freedom. Many and most dogs will respond to the word/whistle in certain circumstances, but often this breaks down when the dog perceives doing something else is more worthwhile (read : fun; interesting) for him/her. And sometimes it is impossible for the handler to offer anything more "fun; interesting" when they're up against quirky distractions that randomly occur in the environment. It is good that you are enquiring - it is IMO indicative of an open-mind.

As you know, ROM, I think the terms in the Codes of Conduct, Mission Statement and Position Statements given here are some of the more sensible and balanced than I have seen of numerous orgs currently available in Australia. I think we would do well with an organisation such as this one in Australia - one with a balanced voice and not riding on and imposing their own personal bias and agendas as several other more well known organisations here do. In fact, I often wonder if some of those well known organisations currently in existence here in Australia have not lost the plot and lost focus on the point being about 'dog-welfare', even though they commonly use the words 'dog-welfare' as some sort of guise to suit their own agendas and bias.

Four Paws K9 Training I think they would be close enough for you? Trish does private consults/lessons too.

Could be numerous reasons - perhaps the other dog has been taught verbal more than visual. Perhaps the rewards were perceived as higher for the verbal than the visual. Visual is easier - doesn't mean dogs don't/can't learn the verbal and that one or the other doesn't/can't evolve to be stronger than the other. It's all in the way we teach them.

Dogs think in images. They are 'visual' learners - it is easier for them. So it's natural that visual is going to be the stronger cue.

Prolly doesn't want to have it get dirty first.

There can be numerous reasons for copraphagia. Rather than go through the list, I'm first thinking you need to concentrate on diet. Your dog may be trying to self-supplement for something that is missing (and this might be the reason he is thin?). It's only been a couple of weeks since you have had him and perhaps you have taken diet into account. Has he gained any weight since you have had him? What is his current weight? Has he seen a Vet? What are his stools like (the dog's .... not the Vet's)? Assume he's been wormed? This also could be a habit developed from his prior home, but IMO we should leave off with the other possibilities until diet has been considered/discussed. In the meantime, clean up behind your dog as quickly as is possible. Don't lose sleep too much, at the moment, about the copraphagia behaviour. Generally it in itself is not harmful to the dog (although I know we find it disgusting - just don't be letting him lick your face!! ) Focus on eliminating ill-health as being the cause of the behaviour, though. Once that is eliminated, there are other suggestions that can be offered, but I didn't want to confuse the issue by going into those at the moment.

This is what I was thinking as I was reading your post, Jaybeece. That, coupled with the possibility that there may have been times when you should have ceased the harrassment on behalf of your own dog?? (not sure .... only you would know). Leadership to/over both dogs is required.

I think that is more my "I just got up" in the morning look!!! But I'm always a "she" .

Are you expecting LM to say "yes"? . (And would that mean that LM was actually AT the awards presentation and saw me WITHOUT makeup!!! :D) Tread carefully, LM. Tread VERY carefully ...... . LOL .... ONLY you can be allowed to get away with this. Until I get to catch up with you . PS .... I take my hump off when I go out . Troy ..... I want the old *big grin* emoticon back please ..... it was cheekier and used to blink its eyes :smurf:

And the good people from the general forum would normally (at some stage) direct the person to the Training forum, if it is not picked up in the general forum beforehand. People who write in the general forum about training/behaviour issues are posting in the wrong forum. The training forum is for the type of thing you describe. Thanks for the idea. Perhaps we can do that in the extra left over spare time we have :wink: .

Oooh, Tony (BTW ) ...... VERY well said!! :rofl:

Agree with Kelpie-i. And Cosmolo is correct too - I often find the same. Which is why so many answers to the training/behaviour issues they post about end up in the answer "consult with a trainer/behaviourist". There can be so much more than what meets the inexperienced eye.

Why do we need more forums??? If it's a training/behaviour issue .... post in training forum. Quite often the training/behaviour issues posted in General get picked up anyway. And for searches, it only means searching in 3 forums (general; training; puppies). Heh ..... Duss'n madder. Add more forums and you're gonna find you'll have more forums to search in, because people will still get mixed up. I think most manage ok, don't they??? Why create more work and more regulation? I think DOL does well enough . JMO