Erny

Its a style of Head-Collar. Made by Black Dog.

It does seem that way, Tapferhund. The VCA are listed as a "Key Organisation" to whom they consulted. Yet there is no apparent input by the VCA directly pertaining to prong-collars. For that matter, the only input by even the RSPCA evidenced in the docs I have is that the ban is "in keeping with [the RSPCA's] policies", but even then they are not specifically referring to the prong-collar and seems to be a bit of a blanket statement. For the VCA, the only thing I can recall being written is that the "VCA expressed support for these proposals in so far as they relate to dogs" .... They'd be entitled to their opinion of course, but it would be good if they could back it up with sound reasoning and evidence. Afterall, that's what the government call for when anyone choses to object to the passing of a Bill or legislation review. There are numerous specific mention of the e-collar. But not the prong-collar. :rolleyes: I really need submissions from everyone. I also specifically need submissions from professional trainers. Please everyone - don't assume the next person is doing it .... because that's what the next person will be assuming too.

Did you ask why? Did the trainer explain why?

Hi Kavik - what I've mentioned above doesn't need to wait until your new babe becomes a toddler. In fact, it is designed FOR new babes. When your baby cries, call your dog and reward (assuming you can afford to let your baby cry for a small minute first). Note : you should do the same for those moments when toddler takes an accidental fall in proximity of the dog - assuming your toddler isn't hurt. In this way, you are teaching your dog not to rush to toddler (as you would NORMALLY do) as its first reflexive action. If you train your dog to do this and achieve your goal (ie that your dog automatically comes to you at the sound of your child crying) it can be a handy exercise for those times when you might be outside and you don't initially hear your baby crying. With any luck, your dog will come find you.

I need to leave this to your judgement - having never had the opportunity to meet your dog myself. You need to work out what is the highest reward to her. This might be a ball being thrown (although my preference is for not throwing). It might be a piece of cooked chicken. It might be a game of tug. Once you've worked out Holly's favourite motivator, then yes .... I'd keep this for those 'special' training sessions. You can use lesser value activities for other occasions. But remember to have her do something for you first - before you begin play. And remember that YOU should be the one who decides when play concludes. Also remember - sometimes "high value reward" changes. Eg. You might think it is cooked chicken .... but on a day or time that she is not hungry, a game of tug might be the preferred reward.

Hope you rewarded your dog for at least stopping . You can train your dog for desired behaviour in response to certain actions by your kids. For example .... your two year old cries - unless he's really hurt and needs your absolute immediate attention, rather than rushing over to him call your dog over to you, fuss your dog (reward; treat; quick play; whatever ...) and then tend to your son. You can apply this philosophy (which in effect is a bit of reverse thinking on your part) to many other things/occasions - such as when the kids start playing, call the dog to you. Train your dog to give you the response of coming to you when your kids do certain things. Of course, to achieve this it relies on you making sure that your dog receives high value reward to have made it completely worthwhile leaving the kids for. Begin training with easy things first (ie actions by the children that are not too interesting or of value to your dog). You could perhaps engage your kids to help in this training. Frequent but short training sessions are what are required - so this should suit the kids too. You could perhaps start by getting them to pretend to cry, and then YOU call your dog over. Your end goal of this training is for your dog to come to you whenever she hears either of them cry. The technical term for this is "counter conditioning".

Generally speaking Head Collars are not recommended for dogs under the age of 6 months. You need to know how to fit and use a head-collar properly to avoid harm to your dog. Your dog is showing signs of its perception of being a higher ranking animal than your children are. You need to exhibit leadership - this is most often established by setting boundaries and guidelines and ensuring your dog works within them. Also by being in control of valuable resources. Without knowing your dog and your family it is remiss to advise what to do over the net - as even the most basic of leadership exercises can result in challenges by a dog upon 'its humans'. A responsible trainer/behaviourist ordinarily would not do or advise anything unless they are self-assured that the possible side-affects will be capably and safely managed. However, one of the thing you could do in relative safety is to follow the NILIF program. This stands for "Nothing In Life Is Free" and is simply where you have your dog do something for you first, before you do something for your dog. Your children are only 2 and 4 year olds. They are babies themselves. So you need to teach everyone (the dog included) how to interact around each other. Given that they are all babies, you (as leader to them all and bearing the role and responsibility as 'protector') must be right there to supervise .... ie IMMEDIATELY on hand. You can use the TOT program exercise and can include your children in that. For safety reasons, holding your child in your arms during the exercise raises them to a height beyond that of the dog and increases safety. That your child is with you assists in lending a perception that they too are involved in the exercise. When your dog has an understanding of what is expected of him (ie learns the exercises you are teaching him) you could then, with immediate and direction supervision of your children, begin to have them give the commands (and releases) to your dog. But the overall thing here is that YOU be the dog's leader and that YOU control all interactions between the dog and your children.

You need a permit to be able to import them. Even when they were permitted to be used here in Victoria, it is not as if they were generally available via your local pet store. I presume this is because they were too expensive coupled with the fact that they look awful to the many who don't understand how they work and the benefits. I therefore expect 'turnover' too slow for the average pet shop to hold them in stock, to be worthwhile. I have high doubts on the effort a 'disgruntled employee' would go to that would be required to 'modify' a prong collar. I don't think the other States in Australia have any problems, Cazz and even before the ban in Victoria, the main people who sold them were trainers/training organisations to my knowledge.

There are more than just a few people out there who mis-use and abuse (innocently or otherwise) other freely available training tools to the detriment of the dogs they are used on (example only : head-collars) ..... yet the highlight for their banned use has never been suggested.

Cazz - any modification of the prong-collar of that nature with intent to harm would be an act of cruelty. As would any modification of similar nature to ANY style of dog equipment (training, restraining or otherwise). The change to legislation that is sought is from "ban of use" to "permitted use with restrictions" .... the restriction essentially comprising of its use being under the supervision and instruction of a qualified trainer .....

Any way which you chose, Cazz. Refer to the original post for the categories.

A *bump* to keep this thread close by with the other one I'm running. Deadline for anyone wishing to contribute in this thread is coming up. Note that the invitation to express your opinion even if it is AGAINST the use of prong-collars (but please be prepared to back it up with evidence and/or sound reasoning) still stands, but time for you to do so is now limited.

Things are moving along ..... DEADLINE for submissions is 1ST FEBRUARY, 2008 I need as many of these as possible. If you've been meaning to prepare one and send it over to me (refer original post for details and for where to send them) please give this your urgent attention. 1st February, 2008 sounds a long way off, but with Christmas coming up (and you all know how hectic that time of the year is) and then New Year festivities, the date will be upon you before you can say "Jack Rabbit". So if you can, aim to get your submission to me BEFORE Xmas, if you will. Help will be appreciated. I'm doing what I can this end.

Artist.doc

And just as well ..... as without additional input continued learning ceases ..... But amongst other things, I wish I could learn more your 'art' of explanations ............................ And you're right - my post was made having my own imaginary 'fido' in mind. In case it was mis-understood, I don't run to every person telling them they must have a prong-collar on their dog. It does depend on dog/handler combo as to what is best.

And IMO this is the key .... many people stay on a 'static' level correction and somehow expect a change in behaviour. The problem I have found, however, with using the "up scale" level of correction with other collars is that the dog can learn to brace against the correction, so the next level/s does not have the expected effect. The dog cannot "brace" its skin against the stimulation from the prong-collar. This is my own philosophy - but it makes sense to me.

K9: Yes, you may well have, but given your experience & mine, I would have delivered you a level ten correction with the prong... :D ..... that's almost sounding kinky K9. Careful ............................

Yes. And as a result the handler is not all pent up/frustrated with the exertion that might otherwise be required in the use of another style of collar. Dog's pick up on their handler's body language. If the handler can keep their body language quiet and calm, this too can "rub off" on the dog and helps to calm him. So you really have a couple of things happening. You got it.

And I would have said b%$gger off and come back when you decide to stop mucking around . Only kidding K9 - good analogy. And thanks for joining with the explanations, for in those I feel I hit my own limitations at times.

I don't think it was intended to make you feel that way, Seita.

I don't know of one. Leerburg has a DVD but the work he does with a dog is focused more on its application (timing of correction etc) for a dog who is aggro to other dogs. It is a strong working drive dog and IMO wouldn't be appropriate to the general pet dog. I don't even necessarily agree with everything that is said by Leerburg. You can use the prong-collar from levels starting from "guide" through to "correction". The correction doesn't need to be applied to the same degree as would a check chain or martingale for effectiveness. You fit the prong-collar on to fit snug around the upper limits of the dog's neck. To fit, you add or reduce the amount of links. So you could purchase a collar with a few additional links and add them in as your dog grows. It is a training tool. It should not be viewed (although it commonly is) as a "stepping up" in severity. Put very simply, flat collars, check chains and martingales all work on the dog's neck skin and muscle (with the high potential of affect on skeleton). The prong-collar predominantly works on the dog's skin with the dog responding before muscle tissue or skeleton is affected. So the prong-collar should (IMO) be viewed as a DIFFERENT training tool because the focus of its action is different to that of other collars. IMO "training" means teaching the dog what behaviour we want. Ideally the end goal of training should be that the dog exhibits the behaviour we want in the absence of any training aid. So where possible, I like to think we can wean off needing to use of any specific training aid - whatever that training aid happens to be. Many people work to this goal and achieve it (I have found, especially with the prong-collar). Some people obtain the behaviour they want with their chosen training aid and don't continue beyond that. IMO this applies to anything - not just the prong-collar. But I have found that success in weaning off has been more predominantly achieved after training with the prong-collar. But that's just me and my experience and I do not represent a majority.

Is it possible that your dog actually has a perforated ear drum/s? Did your Vet actually do a thorough investigation/examination of her ears? If your dog has a perforated ear drum you should never put liquid down into the ear canal. I'm not saying this is the case for Daisy, but there is a possibility that this could be a reason why she is objecting so badly to the treatment. My girl was exceptionally sensitive to one ear more than the other (it caused her pain). I could not use normal ear cleaners with her and I refrained from pouring the liquid into her ears. I used to use cotton balls soaked (and then squeezed out to damp) in white vinegar (diluted with a small amount of water). This served well for general maintenance.

Too far too fast, by the sounds of it. As a rule of thumb, housetraining is incomplete until the pup/dog is taking themselves outside for the toilet AND that there have been no accidents inside for at least 4 weeks beyond that. THEN you can BEGIN to relax bit by bit, but still maintain a degree of vigilence for a little while until you are certain.

Blood in stools can be evidence of things ranging from serious illness through to merely a bit of a short-lived upset stomach/irritated bowel. Were there any other signs of being unwell? (Eg. vomiting, lethargy, listlessness etc.) Have you spoken with your DoggyDayCare as to whether there have been more signs of the blood in his stools and to check on his behaviour? This thread might do best in the "Health" forum here on DOL (you can ask Troy to move it for you), but I would suggest that unwell pups need attention pretty quickly and certainly if there have been any more blood detected in his stools and/or any signs of not being 'quite right', get him to a Vet fast.

Me neither. And it does nothing towards teaching a pup/dog that you control this 'highly valued resource'. Not to mention that dogs are not 'grazers' by nature.