Erny

for giving a dog in need a home. Dogs are better than humans - they don't blame. The person who told you this was being anthropomorphic - in other words, assuming a human based emotion from the dog. No - he doesn't blame you but he is exhibiting a behaviour as a symptom of something he 'feels' when you are not there. This could be indicative of : Boredom Anxiety at being left alone Anxiety in particular because he is separated from YOU Self-rewarding Learnt behaviour The first quest is to work out the cause for the behaviour. This can be quite an exhaustive exercise and is far easier dealt with by having a behaviourist (one who knows) observe the dog and your relationship with it as well as by asking questions (the above, to which you've provided answers, are an example). By the sounds of it he receives a good amount of stimulating exercise - at least I can only presume so based on your answer to "exercise". Anxiety in particular because he is separated from YOU. To check this one out you need to ascertain as to whether he would exhibit the pulling washing off the line behaviour when there are others around. You can one by one eliminate each member of the family by having one member of the family leave (beginning with you, seeing as he has a tendancy to favour YOUR clothing). Finally, have the whole family go out but have a friend (one who isn't a family member) stay with your dog. If the dog does not exhibit the behaviour throughout any of this 'testing' it would suggest that your dog is not behaving due to a strong connection with any one person of the family and would lend me to suspect that the behaviour relates more to an anxiety at being left home alone. Learnt behaviour does not need to be an exclusive 'cause'. It can be a case where the behaviour began first as a result of anxiety; the behaviour was self-rewarding in that it helped reduced the anxiety; and therefore the behaviour has become 'learnt'. By no means am I drawing to conclusion here - I refrain from making those in the absence of my own observations as mentioned above. But for the sake of this thread, let's assume that the behaviour is based in anxiety at being left alone -: Firstly - ONLY setting up to correct or self-correct will not remove the cause. Doing so might prove to only increase anxiety and you could be left with a dog who manifests its symptomatic behaviour in other ways (and may not completely quit the pulling washing off the line either). You first need to address the cause and to save me writing a book, I'll refer you to a discussion that is taking place in another thread in the "puppy problem" forum. The link to this discussion is HERE. Please note that it only provides 'tips' on what to do should the cause of the behaviour be anxiety based. If you are not clear - and even if you are - it would not be unhelpful to arrange consultation with a behaviourist who has a broad base knowledge and experience in dealing with this style of behaviour and cause of behaviour. Whilst you are working on a program to remedy the cause of the behaviour you also need to remove the Learnt behaviur element, otherwise even with the cause removed, the behaviour might still continue simply for the pure pleasure of it - in the absence of anxiety your dog could still view the washing on the line as a great fun toy to play with and be amused by. In the initial stages of behaviour modification I usually prescribe 'prevention'. The aim being to later progress to eventually being able to have the dog around the clothes on the line without any problems. Of course clothes on a line are fun - they move around, flap in the wind etc. and this can engage many a dog's prey drive. I would suggest this is still a remaining possibility for 'cause' on its own. It might be that your dog has been 'caught in the act' by its previous owners and has simply learnt that he is not to do it when they are home but that he is allowed to do it when they are gone (they learn this by the mere fact that nothing tells the dog NOT to do it when there's no-one home). This is the occasion where you WOULD set the dog up to self-correct by creating bad taste etc. etc. as a punishment. You could, in the isolated instance of self-rewarding provide the dog with an alternative such as a *Home Alone Toy (google Aussie Dog). But it's not just about whacking that up and expecting the dog to understand that he CAN pull and tug on the Home Alone Toy but not on your washing - that's something you need to teach him. The method explained here is stimulation control and is similar/same as those people who have dogs who love to dig, so they provide an area such as a sand pit where the dog is allowed to dig. The dog is taught that he is not allowed to dig elsewhere. You can probably already see how convoluted working out your dog's issue can become when one is trying to cover as many contingencies as possible. As I have said above, it is often far easier and more expedient and accurate to engage the services of a behaviourist. Of course, the 'quick fix' to this is to simply not allow the dog access to the clothes line on wash days, or not hang the clothes outside at all. Don't laugh at this - sometimes it is easier for people to go the 'quick fix' path rather than to put in the hard yacka to fix the cause. But then, if the behaviour is anxiety based it is POSSIBLE (how possible I cannot guess - especially without seeing the dog) that its behaviour might manifest into other forms of unwanted behaviour such as barking; digging; destructive chewing etc. etc. I don't know if these schools of thought and explanations are of any help to you - I hope they are (took me long enough to type them down !!!! ). I'm hoping, though, that it might give you an insight as to recognising the cause of the behaviour. Narrowing this down makes it far easier to reach a solution. You could take 'pot luck' with application of a method - and it might work. But it also might serve to make the behaviour worse or even more difficult to resolve.

Hi Liz. What do you do inside that 'exercise time' and for what time frame is each exercise period? Do you train as well? Any other activities? When does he try to grab the clothes off the line? (eg. When you're home or when you're not - or both.) When did the behaviour begin? What have you already tried to remedy the situation? What type of 'toys' does he have? Is he selective about which or whose clothes he pulls off the line (ie is there a preference)? ETA: Sorry - just re-read. Seems to have a preference for your clothes.

Many people diagnose "separation anxiety" too quickly - probably because they don't realise the difference between that and anxiety at being left alone. SA is where the dog has a strong attachment to a person (or sometimes to another animal such as a 2nd companion dog) and regardless of other company, feels it cannot function properly in the absence of that person or animal to whom they are so attached. SA is a very strong emotional and complex issue. Anxiety at being left alone is simply that - the dog becomes anxious being left alone with no company and is often reasonably happy if alternative company is provided (such as another person, be it friend etc. etc.). The anxiety normally becomes symptomatic the moment the dog is left alone (or the person of strong attachment leaves) if not in the preceding minutes before hand (eg. dog cues onto the signs that indicate being left, such as picking up car keys; putting on shoes; etc.) Either way the training for each is similar - ie teaching the dog that it is ok to be without the person to which it has a strong attachment or teaching the dog that it is ok to be alone. The steps described in the posts throughout this thread - such as disappearing behind a 'blind' (eg. door) and re-entering BEFORE the dog has begun to whine/bark/create .... and gradually building up that time in increments is the common methodology for it. It is also good to ignore the dog for a full half hour prior to leaving (paying NO attention) and to randomise the 'leaving cues' the owner might have otherwise inadvertently taught the dog. Also teaching the dog that "denied access" is ok too - this is incremental training and starts simply by having the dog (eg) in a pen (can be inside) and the owner sitting outside of the pen at a small distance - whatever the dog can first cope with. Without going into the step by step process, the owner works up time and then distance, eventually being able to be out of sight of the dog without any fuss. Of course the dog is rewarded by being allowed to regain "access" to the owner only when it is quiet. I would avoid making a big fuss of the dog at any time of re-uniting - regardless of how incremental the training step is. Pinnacle : (A) Everything should be on the 'pack leader's' terms - and this includes initiating contact. A dog who clearly understands its position as 'follower' is relieved of the responsibility to guard and protect its pack. Being a 'pack leader' of your dog is good for any dog - but essential when working through anxiety based issues. (B) Ignoring the dog on re-uniting also helps to relieve anticipation of the owner's return and any excitement that may otherwise come with that. A dog should by all means be happy to see the return of its leader, but not to the point of busting. Excitement in itself is a form of stress. Initially ignoring the dog also removes the possibility of the owner inadvertently reinforcing the dog for any stress that may still momentarily remain on being relieved at having its owner return.

The other advantage of private lessons - at least initially, is that the owner/handler learns TIMING more accurately. In class environment I frequently encourage the attendees to release and reward their dog for improved behaviour when it is appropriate for THEIR dog. But I can only presume that some of the more novice people are not confident of exactly what and when they should release because I often find they'll insist on waiting until I call out to release their dogs. In a class environment it's very awkward if not impossible for the instructor to tell each person individually (to the second) when to do this. (The same applies in relation to corrections - whether that be P+ or P-.) In private lessons this can be done and the handler, as a result, learns more readily to recognise what to release for and when. In a class environment people do pick this up and manage but I think initial private lessons prove for more expedient learning by the handler (and, as a result, the dog). Also, some people strike hurdles in class time training and a few one-on-one lessons can serve to get them through and beyond those. In addition, a private lesson here and there for those who might already attend classes often helps to imprint what they've already been learning but haven't understood with clarity and certainty. I think classes are great for people and their dogs and there aren't too many places that are easily accessible where one can work amongst so many dogs in a controlled environment. But there are some people who simply want the basics without the constant interaction in higher distraction environments. They might also want to be able to progress more swiftly with less lessons. For the all round reliable dog and handler education however, I don't think you can go past the combination of both private and then (if not also inbetween) class instruction.

When I go away my biological toilet 'habits' tend to get a bit inhibited too . (So - now you all know .) You've only had him 6 hours. Give him a bit more time to settle and relax. A little play, when and if he's up for it, might help him with his movements.

When I adopted my girl (who has sadly .... years on, now passed), she really hated the 'squeak' in toys. So I used to use the squeaky bit and put them under my doona cover. Served to help me get her out of the habit of getting up on my water bed when I wasn't looking. Kal wasn't, and never became, toy oriented. She enjoyed tasty food treats, but I was her primary motivator.

Hi Ashan I wouldn't be too quick about pointing the finger at the "fear impact period" .... if my memory serves me (from a previous thread?), there are other issues which this guy exhibits. In the absence of being able to observe, it does sound as though timidness may be an inherent issue - or at least one that has been learnt through whatever experiences (or lack of) he's had in his very early days/weeks. I think I have also mentioned that changing homes can also impact on a dog's behaviour and his change of circumstances might in part have contributed to his present behaviour. You definately need a behaviourist - I long to be able to begin prescribing a program for you here and now, but I cannot do so responsibly as what I prescribe may not be completely right for this individual dog and/or the possibility that my words might be mis-read and misunderstood. Essentially though - this guy needs a 'safe haven' as already suggested here and crate training him can help there. You also need to make sure that you are not inadvertently rewarding his fear behaviour but are rewarding his more confident behaviour. He also needs a desensitisation program to help him overcome his evidentory fear of loud noise/boisterous human behaviour. I can't recall how old your 'pup' is, but I don't think it will hurt him to take some gentle foundation lessons at agility. Working over agility type equipment can do wonders to boost a worried dog's confidence. If he's too young, avoid jumping and weaving, but otherwise some gentle hands-on guidance over and through other obstacles shouldn't hurt a young pup. Agility is not all there is to it, though - so please don't clutch onto this as the be all and end all. The other things I've mentioned also need to be designed by way of program, and applied. I think I've mentioned 'leadership' to you elsewhere too? A search of this DOL forum should give you loads of information, starting with (but not exclusive to) NILIF (Nothing In Life Is Free) and everything on your terms (including instigation of contact). I know it is easier said than done - but if you can manage to scrape the finances together, a consultation with K9 Force will help you immensely and I very much doubt you'll regret seeing him - except maybe some regret for not seeing him sooner.

I agree with Cosmolo here. Reading this thread I couldn't help wondering what people really expect in a class environment and whether they wonder if their expectations are realistic. With all the different 'wants' it sounds to me as if some people would like the luxury of a private lesson for the price of class lessons. The other thing that crossed my mind as I read was the suggestion that customers who do classes should have things explained more fully to them - even by way of a separate class without dogs. I completely agree with explanation (I'm an "explainer trainer") but one of the problems I have is that many people don't want too much explanation, they want to keep working/practicing in class. So it leaves me to wonder how any one dog school could appease to the requirements of all. Consequently, it is a good thing that there are a variety of schools providing different methodology - the main thing is that those schools have a thorough understanding of dogs and dog behaviours as well as a good broad knowledge of the methodologies they use. Whilst ADT do tend to prescribe to the use of check chains (they 'relaxed' on this for a while but found many of their doggy clients were not progressing in their training and were becoming a bit out of control) they will speak singularly with certain people for who the equipment and/or method is not working for them and will seek to come to a solution by exploring other options - both in equipment type and training method/s. They have assistant instructors who are trainees (but who must be at a certain point in their training) who coach 'one-on-one' within the class and also will arrange a behaviourist see their customers before or if possible during class to also assist them with their individual problems/issues. I think the services ADT provide are more diverse than many of other dog schools that are around and that given those services the fee they charge (which is for the life of the dog) is very reasonable. For the poster who mentioned that they didn't appreciate ADT's methods, did you cancel your membership within the first 30 days? ADT have a cancellation policy which allows you to do that with a good part of your money back. So I am not criticised for not announcing it, I am engaged by ADT as an instructor. I am also a trainer and behaviourist in my own right and when I provide private lessons on a one-on-one basis it affords me the freedom to adapt a method of training to suit the dog/owner combination and I can direct all my instruction and advice tailored to that individual. ETA: Again in the same vein as what Cosmolo has written, I have found many people advantage greatly by arranging a few private lessons in obedience training first, and then heading off to a good training school. This way, the "show and tell" .... not to mention practice under exclusive coaching can afford the human part of the 'team' to learn and practice co-ordination and technique AND the dog gets to learn basic obedience skills before being exposed to the increased distractions of a class environment. This might sound like 'sales hype' to some, but it is something that I'd recommend regardless of my own commercial interests.

I would hedge my bets that the above is what's happening - ie that she is achieving her goal merely by the fact that your attention is diverted to her, even if only to return her to her mat. I never used a formal "down/stay" command when I indicated to my girl to go to her mat (assuming it was simply to 'settle down' for a part of the evening). My 'informal command' was "lay-down". If she later got up to move, I didn't worry about it. Don't know if this suits your circumstances but if it does then for the purposes of your problem (ie getting up for your attention) I'd only give her an informal command for her mat. That way, if she does get up you can completely ignore her (without having the need to address her obedience to the command) - and that means no speak, no touch and no eye contact. Fold your arms (still without looking at her) so she can't nudge under your hands. Also, be aware of any other time/s that she approaches and nudges for your attention - you may well find that what she's doing now has been being reinforced in more than just this situation.

He wouldn't like what I've heard about him - and not third hand either. Use the search engine under both his name and franchise name - you'll get a fair bit of reading on the topic.

:D Know absolutely nothing about rats (other than the wild ones who used to infest my horse feed shed in plague proportions ). I presume you are referring to the rat in the far right end of your avatar? Why is it called a black downunder hooded spotted? Looks brown to me .....

Ian Dunbar does this - although he more 'butts' the dog/pup at the front of his nose (and says loudly "NO!"). He also first builds a word association with taking the food (eg. "take") and the dog receives the rebuttal for trying to take the food without first receiving the word.

I'd be asking your daughter if they were doing everything oh so right, why are they experiencing problems? If her answer is that it's everyone else that is the problem, then all she has to do is effectively control her dog to avoid them. And if she can't effectively control the dog, why not, seeing as they are doing everything right (supposedly speaking)? Generally speaking, dogs behave in response to the things that we do. If we want dogs to behave differently then we have to change what we do.

It seems you are saying what I've said above (ie the 'big picture'), although I'm not sure what bearing this has on your statement that you don't like equipment such as the martingale etc. because it "only teaches the dog what NOT to do". I'm not bringing this up as a debate to suggest you should like collars such as the martingale etc - that's your personal choice. But I'm not sure where what you say above (bold highlighted) supports your above reason for NOT liking them. Again - I support this as mentioned in my earlier post. Show the dog what TO do as well as what NOT to do. But I am further confused as to how what you say here supports the reason you've stated for you not liking martingales etc. Please understand I'm not challenging you for your not liking the named equipment - that debate can be found in countless other threads. But I'm not sure what you mean by "I am personally not a fan of choke, martingal or any other type of collar that can hurt the dog or works as some sort of punishment because ... it will teach your dog what you don't want but not what you want." My earlier post was to try to point out that to not like the equipment styles you mention "because they teach the dog what not to do" is taking into account only half the equation and therefore wasn't an accurate argument to support or refute preference. A flat collar on a dog doesn't teach it what TO do either. It's what YOU do that counts. I'm now a bit confused about what you're trying to say in regards to martingales etc. :rolleyes:

Edited ..... because I've just caught on to the facitiousness expressed in your answer. Sorry - a bit sluggish today. :rolleyes: Ahah! But we all know that Kryptonite is your weakness! :rolleyes:

K9: Never had that happen......... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: ;) Are you saying you've never had your ego scratched, K9 ???? Naaahhhh ...... surely not.

I see we're talking on the same page, PF. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Just an additional thought - sometimes some people reject the idea that they aren't already recognised as a 'leader' by their dog - I think they assume that their own self-image is compromised by this thought, although it shouldn't be - the fact that these people have sought help in the first place puts them up on my ladder, at least :rolleyes:. Not infrequently I've needed to enter into explanation about how the dog perceives things and why, so that a person's ego isn't scratched.

I don't know Am, but can only guess that it's got something to do with our modern day human society feelings about 'equality' and the emotional rejection of anything other than that. I think also that people think that being and assuming the rights of a "leader" has a 'selfish' flavour to it too. But if they'd realise the responsibilities of a leader they might more readily understand that assuming the role of 'leader' is far from being selfish - often it's quite the opposite.

It goes without saying that it's what works for the dog that is the best method. Anissa - I'm aware this is simply your preference and to which you are of course entitled and I have no argument with that, but there is one part of your statement (highlighted) that I think deserves additional explanation so the OP can understand the bigger picture and not merely a selected part of it. Learning by consequence is a principal of learning in the animal kingdom. Any one who knows about dog training, equipment and its use will also know that generally, training is not simply about the application of negatives, but also about positives. When you work to make the message black and white, it makes it easier for the dog to learn. The easier it is for a dog to learn, the quicker learning will occur and this in itself widens the window of opportunity for the dog to receive more positives more quickly and more frequently. Teaching the dog what TO do is done by the application of a desired consequence for the desired behaviour. Teaching the dog what NOT to do is done by the application of an undesired consequence for the undesired behaviour. I do like to show the dog what TO do first, though. This makes it easier for the dog to 'default' (couldn't think of a better word) to that behaviour when he/she receives a negative for the undesireable behaviour. Teaching what TO do doesn't have to be that complicated nor even time consuming. It might be as simple as 'preventing' your dog from being on the couch (eg. tether) and then rewarding because he/she isn't there nor trying to be there. So whilst there is truth in your statement, Anissa, use of the equipment as referred to only is simply one half of the equation. Having said that, whilst I don't frequently indulge in use of the clicker for training, I see no problem with using the clicker as a marker for the desired behaviour if that's what anyone has the inclination to do.

I have? Certainly my pleasure, Swain ;). Hope things kick-start for you to the point where the inspiration you receive from your dogs' improvements will serve as a never ending upward spiral of motivation for higher achievements.

Be calm, assertive and consistent. On more than numerous occasions, people with their problematic (eg disobedient; not mindful of their owners; sometimes fear aggressive type dogs) will hand the lead over to me (or some other trainers) and sometimes without having done anything, the dog is immediately a different and 'better' and in some cases more confident dog. If I had a dollar for everytime I've heard someone say "but whenever the trainer is there my dog is better behaved". I often joke and tell them they need to buy a training shirt. But IMO the dog is simply picking up on the natural assertiveness that I and other trainers carry and exhibit. If people who aren't naturally 'assertive' at least first begin by outwardly showing assertiveness through (primarily) body language and (secondary) use of voice, the assertiveness that isn't initially natural has a chance of growing to become second nature and more progress into their dog's behaviour modification may be possible. ETA: Giving people "leadership programs" to follow by way of 'regime' not only helps change the dog's perspective of heirarchy status but also sometimes and simultaneously helps their owners to unconsciously learn 'assertiveness' when they otherwise don't know how to or wouldn't. That is, of course, dependant on whether people follow through with the program in the first place. Amhailte: I agree. I have gone from referring to "Being dominant" to "Alpha Leader" to "Leader" because of the connotations people prescribe, over time, to the words. Even now I'm tending to ascribe to the words "Pack Leader" because it sounds more "teamsy" and I'm hoping it paints the right image in people's minds. Being a good leader is about being firm but fair and being consistent about it, IMO. But even the word "assertive" is becoming a dirty word to some. I guess this has something to do with the ever evolving politically correct society we're all pressured into living in.

Speaking generally here - IMO getting a dog working where he/she has the opportunity to apply his/her inate 'drive' to its intended use is one of the best things for stabilising a dog's temperament/mind. That and general, solid exercise. Many of the people I speak to in my work tend to tell me their dog receives plenty of attention and affection and a bit of exercise. This is fairly typical of what we humans want and need and therefore we (most often innocently) apply the same to our dogs. IMO for dogs it should be the other way around - plenty of exercise and some attention and affection. (But not to forget in between and always - providing boundaries and limitations.)

What I mean is to teach each dog 'leash manners' ie. that the rule about having a lead on is to not pull on it. There are a variety of ways to go about teaching this and I'm sure a search in this forum will result in an abundance of reading. I generally tend to use the "tension on lead; turn away and pop/check" method (coupled with encouragement and appropriately timed praise for giving a loose lead), but there are others who might prefer for their own reasons a different method. What method you use much depends on your dog, his/her temperament, what equipment you use and ultimately what works for your dog.

As for the excitement over seeing the lead :- This is a common occurrence because people inadvertantly teach their dog that every time he/she sees the lead it means he/she is going some where. So the lead becomes a precursor to exciting things happening and the dog anticipates it. Make a point of devalueing the lead. Pick up the lead at varying times (where the dogs can see you do so) and put it back. Pick it up and hang it around your neck and walk around with it, then put it back. Pick up the lead and put it in another spot. Take it back up and return it to its usual place. When the dogs have settled (because they've learnt there's nothing to 'anticipate' from it), then pick it up and clip it on. Then clip it off. Repeat this exercise multiple times throughout the day or whenever and as often as you can. Avoid putting the lead on your dog and going out for a walk until the dog is calm. (And I'd probably be inclined to take out the dog who was the calmest first.) When you're doing all of these 'exercises', avoid making a big fuss about it - keep everything low key and 'matter of fact'. With the little POM ..... I'd start (as I usually do with most dogs) with loose lead walking exercises. That's normally my priority. If there's no respect/understanding of the lead, then it can sometimes be difficult to attain other exercises. Definately train the dogs separately until their skills are better developed. The one who is dog aggressive needs some specialised training and in this you'd do well to get some one-on-one professional advice and coaching. Hope the above has helped to some degree.