Erny

Hey!! MsJames!!! Practice, practice, practice.

A martingale is limited slip. A prong collar is limited slip. A check chain is not. And, when you think about it, a head-collar is not limited slip either (muzzle strap tightens infinitively). "Limited slip" is where the collar tightens when tension is applied by the lead, but it can only tighten so far. Not niave and don't be sorry for asking, S&B. We all learn by questioning.

Squeak - Winterpaws told me "Dural".

For those in Sydney who want to do the course, see THIS link to Winterpaws' thread.

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Can't advise you without seeing you or your dog. Make sure you obtain good tuition on how to use whichever piece of equipment you chose to use. I would suggest that it's your technique that needs some help, but agree that something other than a flat collar (example only: martingale; pinch collar) would help, but only if they too are used properly. If you're going to go for a head-collar, it is important these be used properly too, as they have very real potential to cause physical damage to the dog - even if simply by it struggling/scratching/clawing to get it off. By the sounds you need some help. Have you asked your dog school for a bit of specialised help to get you going on your way?

If people are using flat collars at training, I am often suggesting/advising them to check them to ensure the collar cannot come off. Also suggest they tighten the collar up one notch or two (depending how firm to begin with) and loosen it off when they get home. It is amazing how many people don't think to check this until it is too late. It isn't rocket science - just common sense. I used to do that with my girl. She had a notch that was for when the lead was on or we were otherwise 'out', and another when we were at home. IMO a slip collar is better, especially (but not only) for those with dogs whose shape and size of head compared with their necks can make it difficult if not impossible to hold a collar without it being too tight.

Totally agree with Haven. It's been what I've been trying to emphasise too.

As a dry food, I've heard a lot of reports about its good effects. I expect I will be including it as a part of my dog's diet when my next dog comes along. I agree with Kelpie-i. BARF is good, but I know I spent more time in the kitchen 'preparing' for my girl's meals than I ever did for my own!!!

Tonymc is pretty much on the mark where it relates to my definition of what "Passive Dominance" would mean. But still don't know if this was the intended meaning given by the person who spoke to you. Might have been right ...... but remember - it's an "over the phone" comment. If I were you I wouldn't take this as a "diagnosis" for your dog's behaviour. Having said that - "Leadership" .... yours, that is, IS required by your dog. I think I might have mentioned this in a previous post about him? Certainly won't do any harm. But if I were you, I would consider it very worthwhile to consult with someone who knows ..... and who will see your dog, yourself, assess your relationship and SHOW you what to do and when as well as explain how the dog interprets all of this. Still have no idea of "Grudge and Budge" or whatever it was.

Sorry I missed meeting you, Horus - but great that you are enjoying the course. Next time perhaps?

Bridgie Cat ..... we can all "guess" at what these people meant, but if we endeavour to interpret their meaning, it could be quite different to what was intended. Hence, I don't think it is a good idea to try. It could put the wrong idea into JonathonDB's mind.

My Dad, who is forever the Gentleman, used to say "better to have an empty house than a bad tenant". Sorry ..... no help to the OP whatsoever!

I agree with Haven. Ask them what they meant. I presume these people saw your dog?

You guys are so enthusiastic !!!! Makes me wish I was doing the course all over again!! It's great you are having a great time with it and by the sounds of it, getting so much from it. Keep up the good work.

Luvworkindogs ..... How come you posted only a quote?

Same here - and I retain no respect for the grandeur of trialling if it truley expects anything less.

I found the pan from the "brush and pan" set the best. Has the handle (so keeps hands out of the way) and its shape allows you to pop it down fairly low but still has heaps of room for catching lots. Pour the excess on the weeds in your garden/lawn. ETA: Another advantage in having trained to go to the toilet on command. :D

Tilly - As time has moved on since losing my girl 10 months ago, it seems that although my heart is full and understands your pain, helpful words that I might offer have dried up. Maybe because I realise there aren't any words that can make a difference to a breaking heart. I do know though that it helps to know you are surrounded by people who care and understand what you do and so it is for this alone that I post here now. I hope my contribution to your support helps, if only a little. Cherish the time you have together and know that your boy understands that you are taking care of him, that you hurt because of what's happening to him, and that you are doing and will continue to do all you can with his best interests at heart. The most we can do is give selflessly. Take care and enjoy the special moments that will still be there. Like you, I hold hope that maybe the treatment he's received will assist in some way.

Ok - that's a start to narrowing it down to something more conclusive. Was that behaviour in relation to YOU and ONE of the dogs leaving, or just one of the dog's leaving? You can narrow things down even further if you can arrange for someone other than you or your OH leaving. IE Someone outside of the family takes the dog out. Chances are it isn't separation anxiety. But it's not completely ruled out. Nor is 'anxiety' of some sort ruled out yet. Out of the 3 dogs, who is top dog? How long before the whining etc. began after you and/or the other dog/s leave? How long before the whining ceases? All these sorts of questions go towards more firmly determining cause.

Really? What has made you so decisive, Sky?

Ruthless - in short, yes, it is possible. But is it likely and to what extent? That depends on oh so many variable factors. The genetics of the dog. The reason for the aggression. How old the dog is. How long the aggression has been occurring (ie how 'ingrained'). When (ie in what period of the dog's life) the aggression began. How dedicated the handler is towards working on modifying it (including how consistently). How good the handler is/becomes regarding timing and reading the dog (and other dogs) body language. How much of a "leader" the handler (ie owner) is as perceived by the dog. Whether the dog has good pack drive or whether that can be developed. It also depends on what you might regard as "cured". It might not end up being a case of your dog enjoying actively playing with other dogs. Or if he does, it might be merely a select few. Some people would regard that as "not cured". It might simply be being content with a dog who has learnt to defer to you and who can more easily cope (even if not enjoy) with other dogs in proximity. When there has been a history of aggression I am always mindful of the potential for it being re-triggered. Successful behaviour modification merely decreases the threshold to aggressive reactivity. IMO I would suggest your "light at the end of the tunnel" always be for any improvement you can get - incrementally. And work to progress from that improvement to the next.

Kelpie-i .... what I mentioned was a generic statement. It was not aimed at MsJames specifically (as you already know, I will not advise on aggression over the net - nor can I support or refute a training method as being unsuitable or suitable without having seen the dog in question. Not that I know what MsJames has been prescribed anyway) and was a point simply to make because there are many times when owners give up too quickly. In addition I have come across those who specifically dot from one trainer to the next to the next on a weekly basis, simply because they didn't want to make the effort that was suggested by each one in their wake. And this is not to say this is what MsJames has been doing either (just in case it is otherwise read that way). You are right. The diagnosis must be correct at the beginning. And the behaviour modification method prescribed needs to be appropriate to the dog, taking the owner into account also. I think this goes without saying. Even though there are times it needs to be said.

It is possible (hence my last question to the OP) but not necessarily probable.

Cosmolo and Erny, I am a little concerned about your statements and whilst K9 agrees with you both, the major concern here is whether the initial trainer has actually diagnosed the dog correctly and has applied the correct technique. When it comes to teaching obedience tricks, there is certainly more than one way to skin a cat, however when dealing with aggression and severe behavioural problems, we don't have the luxury of this, worse still if the methodology/technique applied is not the correct one, the problem will worsen. Hi Kelpie-i. Both those quotes (above) are from me. I've adjusted accordingly for the purpose of this post. I agree with your statement and concerns - and thank you for bringing them to attention as I was talking on the assumption that the "initial trainer" has made the correct diagnosis and has given a program that is something the owners can handle safely (for the owners and their dog's sake). I guess I was also speaking with "manageable" or less severe aggression in mind. Of course, I should remember that readers can't be mind-readers and that assumptions can't be read - they leave loopholes for misinterpretation - something that does often happen here on DOL and many other internet communication sites. I usually try to avoid that, but in typing, omitted on this occasion. I did include "if they can" but that in itself is perhaps a bit of a flimsy and ambiguous statement. It goes to follow that if I am the (eg) second trainer consulted for the problem but disagree with the initial diagnosis and/or treatment methodology, I will endeavour to take the time to explain - with diplomacy where possible and appropriate - my thoughts to the owner and why a different way might be more advantageous. Whether that "different way" means "different methodology"; "boarding/training" etc. etc. With certain behaviour modification treatments, the liklihood of extinction bursts need to be taken into account and if the potential to prove dangerous to the owner is likely, then stepping in to lend a helping hand by boarding/training can certainly help and is something I will (and have) advise. ETA: I hope this eleviates your concerns with my statements, Kelpie-i. As a training/behaviourist colleague I respect your thoughts and comments.