Erny

What you suggest Faolomar is in brief along the lines of a program that is commonly followed to rehabilitate a dog who suffers separation distress. Although it is not always as simplistic as it sounds and by the sounds of this dog needs to be combined with other additional behaviour modification techniques as well. Although I do not believe that "drugs" by themselves is the answer, SOMETIMES they are required in more extreme circumstances and if so should always be in conjunction with a behaviour modification program. I agree that simply administering drugs by themselves in the absence of behaviour modification techniques generally masks the problem (if the drugs are effective at all) rather than treating the cause. I still recommend the OP engages the services of a behaviourist who will be able to personally observe the severity of the distress and guage the temperament of the dog, investigate leadership and design a program more tailored to suit.

This is not just about drugs (and depending on response to behaviour modification treatment, may not need to be about drugs at all) but is about emotional behaviour issues. Engaging a behaviourist qualified to deal with these sorts of issues would be of best assistance. The dog does need to be taught that being alone is ok. This involves incremental training and is established over time. The success rate and how long this will take will depend on numerous factors, the main being whether or not this dog has ever been alone before and from what age. In the interim, allowing the dog to become an indoor dog might help also. As it stands, he has not only lost his friend, but is also being isolated from his pack. That in itself is a punishment to dogs not taught otherwise. Having said that his owners MUST exhibit all leadership attributes and I would also recommend they be firm with the guidelines they set him. But a behaviourist would be able to cover all of that and show them how to do it and what guidelines to put into place.

Good question!!!! No physical corrections. Ever? Not being picky .... just clarifying. Won't be rude and stick my tongue out or anything ......

Don't believe there is any such thing as purely positive. Even denying a dog from doing a 'run' is negative punishment.

The section highlighted (by me) could be said of any piece of equipment fitted/used on an animal. Is this the best the RSPCA could come up with as a reason for disliking the prong in particular?

Can you get over to see Steve at K9 Force?

Ummmmmm ..... maybe your "at ease" pose was actually your escape from injury? Think I'd rather give way, than take a head butt to closed legs from the horned sheepies ......

Or what you are doing (or not doing) when the two dogs are walking together. ETA: Glad that Chopper is at least fine for walking on a "one-on-one" basis.

Where are you located, ICAD? As I think already mentioned in this thread (?) ..... even just one private lesson can make a huge difference to your technique and the subsequent result. :rolleyes:

Ruthless .... ask him to provide you with a link and specific direction to the relevant piece of legislation which states that the USE of pinch collars is prohibited in NSW.

Thanks Rom. The link worked straight away this time. Don't know why I only got the first part the initial time I tried. Maybe I need more patience. :D

Rom .... the link you gave seems only to come up with a page of law references. Have heard of this story/event, but would be interested in the full read, if you have the link for it.

Thanks Arya ...... I am sure to take you up on that offer. I am simply accumulating documentaries, as well as testimonials/attestations from those who have had experience with the prong (and the difference it made to the dog) at this stage. THEN I will need to get my head into how to start off with the submission. Usually, once I get 'rolling' I'm ok. I don't want to make the submission so much focussed on the damage a check chain can do if used improperly etc. etc. - in Victoria that's pretty much all we are left with that has effect with some dogs. And admittedly, a check chain used wisely and properly CAN work well with many dogs - admittedly not all. I don't want the govt to view the submission with the only result being that these too are banned, although I wouldn't care about that too much so long as they reverse the ban on prongs as well. But that's a risk I want to avoid or at least minimise. Once I have my head into gear and know how I wish to go about this, I will most probably call for people to email me with their situation/circumstances and advise their thoughts on the prong and how it helped their dog.

Hi Denis Would you mind sending a CC to me too? I am accumulating documentation to assist for when I compile a submission for re-introduction of allowing the prong to be used here in Victoria - at least on a restricted basis (similar to the e-collar). Thanks in advance. Erny

Haven't read all of it but note that the RSPCA speak of Head collars as being positive - but that the person must know how to correctly fit and use it. Then it says of prong collars "If used roughly, they could cause injury to the dog ... " Funny how they don't use the same style of wording for the Head Collar. Obviously they are batting for one team over the other, rather than being fair and open-minded. IMO, Head Collars can be a continual aversive to a dog - an aversive that does not cease until it is taken off the dog, not just when it ceases undesirable behaviour. This is not to suggest that they don't have in certain circumstances a "place" in our training tool-box. Ruthless - Naturally it is your choice as to whether you wish to return to the dog school you speak of. Must admit that their short-sightedness and lack of knowledge on which they base their bias would concern me ....... What other application are their bias' likely to influence? IMO, a prong is kinder than a check-chain. YOU should not feel ashamed. But THEY should - simply because they don't know what they are saying. The prong might well be prohibited from use within their club (and whether we think those reasons are right or wrong is irrelevant - it is their privilege), but that does not render the equipment illegal. Except in Victoria. But I do intend to try to change some victorian bureaucratic minds ......... it will be a long haul though.

I understand we don't live in an ideal world ..... BUT, what would happen if one day Ivan can't be with Chopper? Independance training is valuable and sometimes critical. It is something we tend not to work on until we HAVE to have it, by which stage it's too late to work on incrementally. Also, is it possible that Chopper is making you work around him, rather than the other way around? I note that you're doing what you think are the right things to do leadership wise, but I wonder if you're really following the "leadership" thing through sufficiently enough for your dogs to believe in it. A "one-on-one" session with a good trainer/behaviourist will I believe help you enormously. This person would prescribe a program for you to follow. It may not be easy at first as you will need to take steps to alter your dogs' current perseption of you as well as previously learnt behaviours, but if you do the work now rather than later it will take less time than it otherwise would to achieve a harmony that will have you wondering why you didn't address this sooner.

Believe me, your personal exercise won't be lacking if you follow good instruction (being shown/personal coaching is far different and IMO a bigger learning curve, than simply reading). Simultaneously your dogs will learn more efficiently and as a result, it will be fairer to them. Ultimately, your walks will soon end up in being an enjoyable event for all concerned - you AND your dogs.

Edited

It's not just about the equipment you put on your dog, it's how you use it and when that counts.

Lynlovesdogs - without looking up and quoting the proper medical technical definition, a hot spot is a spot on the skin that has erupted due to some sort of toxin within the body. It comes up similar to a pimple and then erupts. Can become quite large sores. Contributing factors can be internal (diet; suppressed immune system etc.) as well as external (eg. allergens, pollens etc.)

No worries Puggles. Congratulations on the owners for their continued efforts and sensible approaches to this situation. Ralph is indeed a lucky dog to find a home with people who care enough to dedicate the time, effort and unfortunately money towards finding help for him. Am interested in knowing the outcome of their persuit to this end, so would you mind up-dating this thread with instalments regarding progress, as and when you know it? To Ralph's owners I wish them good luck in their endeavours.

You can, Puggles. I'm not sure what more I can add though - especially as it's exploratory information and questioning via the internet. These people interstate (ie not in Melbourne)?. In addition, if it is possible that it is medically based, I think someone like Robert Holmes (he's in Melbourne also) would be the guy to consult with. He at least has the Veterinary/medical credentials AS WELL as behaviourist qualifications and experience. But I am happy enough for Ralph's owners to email me ..... provided they understand the above. :rolleyes: ETA: Something I can think of that the owners can at least try (by way of experimentation towards determining cause). Have Ralph with them in a COMPLETELY DARKENED room. Whilst dogs have a superior night vision to ours, I am informed that there are times where their night vision is insufficient to see. And that is when there is complete darkness. I can only assume (I have no veterinary credentials) that if spots/shadows in front of Ralph's eyes are the cause of the barking behaviour, these should not affect him when in complete darkness. This would require more than just pulling blinds shut. It would require blackout curtaining, without outdoor street lights and/or moonlight etc. etc. being able to penetrate. Just a guess ..... but maybe worth a try. No harm done, in any case. :rolleyes:

This does sound a complicated issue - one difficult to determine cause. Assuming the new owners' timing of reward for not barking has been appropriate and assuming the dog perceives them as leaders (ie is not barking by way of 'demand'), the physiological cause previously suggested (ie ringing in ears) may be something worth investigating - particularly considering prior problematic history. One other thought - It seems that a good part of Ralph's early life was spent in darkness (ie blind) and deafness(?). I wonder if his improved sight is resulting in (a) shadows/spots still remaining in his vision and/or (b) he is responding to sights, movement AND sounds that perhaps he has been unused to seeing and hearing? ETA: Does Ralph continue his barking antics when he is out on walks etc.?

Yes, although it's more that "Over" is for sending the dog clockwise out and around the sheep and "Back" is for sending the dog anti-clockwise.

Well, I went to the Herding Workshop - the one that was set for today. Must say it was a very informative and fun (if dusty!) day. :rolleyes: Thank you, David and Kelpie-i for having/inviting me. It was not only good to see you again but also great to watch you guys in action. Timing and ability to 'read' the dogs' drive behaviours was excellent and served as a reminder as to how important these factors are. Watching the dogs' previously dormant drive be enticed into action and subsequent confidence in the dogs as they began to understand the work required of them (under David's expert tuition) in such a short time frame was fascinating. I expect there are many satisfied doggies now sleeping very soundly at their respective homes. I now know some herding words too . Thanks again - it was a great day and by people's faces, input and participation, one that was enjoyed by all - expecially the dogs.