Erny

Hi Am. I see what you mean but I think the big difference here is that withholding of food treat is a negative punishment whereas the "crittering", (whilst conducted at a low but "working" level it is also in a low intensity situation) remains a positive punishment. I see "crittering" as a calmer way of teaching the dog what TO DO to turn the stim off, making it easier for both dog to learn and handler to co-ordinate. I stand to be corrected by Lou on this - he would have far more experience than I in this field of behaviour problem solving. Hunger, or wanting a food treat, is more easily forgotten/ignored when its attention is taken by something more interesting. Have you ever missed a meal (eg lunch) because you were so engrossed in something that you enjoyed? I doubt that I would be as easily able to ignore a sufficiently annoying stimulation that didn't stop until I ceased my activity. I would enjoy hearing back from Lou though to my question about "quantum leap" (ie owner's presence/owner's absence).

I think the answer to that is fairly obvious . What's your angle, Cosmolo?

Hi Lou. Thanks for the link. Good info. I more often than not work in similar manner under these circumstances. It's a way of teaching the dog what response is required to turn off the stimulus, as well as a way of maintaining control of the situation to a lower and calmer intensity so that the owner has better opportunity to teach it that it is about IT showing interest in the (in this case) stock animal and not about the stock animal itself. Do you find that there is a 'quantum leap' to be overcome for when training reaches the stage when the owner is eventually not in sight?

Not banned. Restricted though. Can be used with consent of Vet AND supervision of qualified dog trainer. At least, this is how it is in Victoria and I think NSW too. Given the high quality self-reinforcement the dog has already received and would continue to receive for this activity I wouldn't have any faith in the "desensitisation" (not really the term I would use - more appropriately "negative punishment") as you suggest it, having any effect. The aversive must weigh heavier than the reward for it to even part way be successful. Apart from that it does not preclude the activity when the owners are not in sight. Agreed.

Agree, although there are circumstances based on the temperament of the dog where I have avoided a 'preferred' method altogether from the get-go. And for the same reason, even though a particular 'method' might be preferred by the owner, I will first discuss the pro's and con's if I don't believe that method is suitable.

Definately. And even if I have a 'preferred' method that has worked with every dog (that I have worked with) in a prescribed circumstance, I am very open-minded to the fact that I have not worked with EVERY dog and that there would remain the big possibility that I'd need to alter my tactics to suit.

Just want to add to my previous post something that I think is the obvious. That is, if the dog has shown fear to the tunnel I would first work to reduce that fear by working on something less intense. Eg. Going through a tyre. Only when it is comfortable with the tyre would I turn to working at the tunnel.

With your example of an unwilling dog through a tunnel - I agree that there is a degree of "flooding" if the dog is "forced". However, the way I see it, there is a difference here than to the true technical sense of "flooding". My understanding of "flooding" is to keep the animal in the situation it fears until such time as the fear abates. With the "tunnel" example the dog has an option of 'escape' and although this involves having to go through the tunnel (assuming it cannot return via the entrance due to eg. body blocking), it is a conscious decision by the dog to continue on as this is the only choice (save for staying where it is) the dog has. The act of having made the decision, and the subsequent "win" the dog receives as a result, serves to increase its confidence and I feel this is where and why there is such a high and quick degree of success in this method in this example. If it were "true" flooding, the dog wouldn't be allowed escape and it is here that there is the very real potential risk of sensitisation occurring. These are just my thoughts, my take, on the subject. :D Having said the above: My interpretation of "force" in this example is not one of dragging the dog through the tunnel by eg. the lead. (Just incase others interpret the word to effect a different meaning/vision.) Rather the "force" is only by removing one choice (ie backing out or avoiding the tunnel altogether) but giving the dog the option of two remaining choices. That is, to stay put or to go forward. I have had some dogs where additional encouragement to go forward has been required, but none where any efforts to this end have been unsuccessful. I can therefore only base my opiinion on my own experience. I've forgotten what the original question was with regards to the "forcing through tunnel" example given, so forgive me if I've gone off track with my comments. It's been a big week and a big day and I'm in for a very early night tonight!!!

Well ....... they're not "right" that often, so I guess we gotta let them play it up a bit!

I know that my words will not suffice to make you feel better right at this moment, DA. So please accept a . I am so deeply sorry for the outcome - but you gave selflessly and always with your dog's best interests at heart. Allow your feelings to nestle on this fact - it will help to take the edge off that horrible raw, sharp feeling of grief. Your girl has crossed the and feels no pain - just warmth and comfort. I'm sure my girl will be there to greet her and bear her welcome to the sunny tree-lined fields upon which they frolic, play and rest.

DA - I am really sorry for this devastating news. I can only imagine how mind blown you must feel, having gone from something you thought was 'routine' to this. What is the Vet's prognosis and suggestions? Are there options? Where did you go?

:p Yay for OHs!!!! Is Jonah happier now?

Yep - that's a frequently discussed possibility and the reason why many people are resorting to titre tests (to check antibody levels are adequate) rather than the stock standard yearly "let them have it" routine. Hope all goes well for your dog, DA.

Thank you Kris. I am not a breeder, but like to read up on things such as this simply to expand my knowledge. Unfortunately, I don't speak nor understand the German language so am unable to decipher the information on the platform you point to. But welcome to DOL in Australia .

I think physical health affects mental health, so IMO they are both just as importantly interlinked. I don't recall Otto or Jessie being that nervous of or snappy towards unfamiliar people. Is it just Vets that are the concern?

I know the state of mind you must be in. My girl had a tumour on the adrenal gland. The surgery was going to be extremely tricky with a 35% mortality rate. Not to mention very expensive ($6-7,000.00), but that was a secondary concern to me at the time. My attitude to it was that without the surgery she would not survive. With the surgery she stood a chance of complete cure, if she could survive it at all. All other things were pointing in favour of the surgery being successful, so I had her booked in for the procedure. She had to be administered with a certain medication for a minimum of 21 days prior to surgery, to improve survival chances. Seven days prior to surgery she began having nose bleeds and four days prior she began having Grand Mal seizures. After consultation with her Vet specialists at Werribee, we concurred that brain tumour was most likely involved as well. This being the case I cancelled surgery and kept her on palitive care for the next number of months. Sadly, I needed to intervene last July as it would seem that the adrenal gland tumour was worsening. If it helps you any, I first consulted with Dr. Russell Mitten at Werribee but was then transferred to Dr. Guy Yates (who was very patient, informative, sympathetic, understanding and sensible when it came to what was best for the dog), also at Werribee, when it became a surgical matter.

What Arya said :D . Timing is important here. Work it so the toy is given at the exact moment things are "right", even if that means a bit of "accidental training" to begin with. Eg. In the heel, the second your dog is in the right position, give the toy. Begin to teach the dog what positions and behaviour will earn the toy and what will not.

Dogangel ...... what is your plan? I am concerned about your girl. Have you had her temperature checked?

I'm also interested to know why you wish to switch to food. The dog's favourite motivator is chosen by the dog, not us. If a toy is what does it, I'd stick to that. If your dog will take treats at all (but isn't as interested as it is in the toy) you could have food on you as well (make sure it is 'special' - ie tasty; doesn't receive this style of food at any time other than for training) and use it as a secondary reinforcer.

Sounds like you, or more particularly your dog, has definately had (and is having) a rough trot. I know what that is like - I had a series of unfortunate and bad experiences with a string of Vets when my girl was very ill. I don't know where you are located, but if you post here with that detail, perhaps some people can recommend a specialist Vet that you can take your dog to. I can only say that I believe my girl was under good care when she was at the Melbourne University (Werribee) Vet Hospital here in Melbourne. Also, the Vets we had cause to consult with at our local emergency vet clinic here in Hallam were also very good. Mind you, it took me some time to admit this as due to my very bad run with wrong and/or bad advice and treatment (at the expense of my dog's health as well as my pocket), I was very cynical and slow to trust when it came to Vets. There are some good ones around. Still sounds to me like some sort of blood infection to me - but I reiterate, this is only my layperson, unqualified thought. My girl ended up with peritinitis following one of her surgeries. I'm not suggesting this is what your girl has, but certain things you mention sound familiar. Watery blood oozing ..... increasing to running like a tap, from her wound site was one of her symptoms. Not eating. Lethargic. Weak. Is her temperature normal?

Dogangel - I'm sorry. I'm not sure if I have the sequence of events right. Still - it's not as though I can help you, but it might be good if it is clarified for someone else more wise in the Veterinary field should they care to comment. So, 10 days ago, bleeding gums was what was presented to your GP Vet. There was also a Cyst (where?). Vet prescribes teeth cleaning under GA. Remove cyst at the same time. 6 days following this procedure your dog's health declines, showing signs of vomiting, lethargy and weakness. Off her food but drinking ok. I think it is then that you took your dog to the emergency vet who diagnosed dehydration and put her on an IV drip? Also took bloods and results indicate low protein and anemia. There is swelling that has not gone down. From the Cyst removal site? (Where?) The emergency vet has commented on the roughness of the stitching of the wound site. Antibiotics were prescribed. At what point did she begin the heavy panting and appear "spaced out"? Was this once the antibiotics were prescribed and administered? You returned to the Vet (which vet ...... the emergency vet?) and it is here that you are informed your dog is dehydrated. What form of administration was advised for the fluids that YOU gave? I'm sorry - I'm lost. You're probably worried about your dog and not concentrating on the posts (and I don't blame you), but the order of events and symptoms becoming apparent are confusing to me. Some full stops to indicate the end of your sentences would be helpful too. As I mentioned above, I am certainly NOT in a position nor qualified to advise. I would like to presume that your dog's temperature has been checked to ensure that it is normal, because what is going though my mind is some sort of blood disorder (infection?) - as a result of the surgical operation??????? I really don't know and I think your first port of call is as you suggest you are doing ...................... that is to consult with a Vet qualified to deal with more complicated issues, and quickly. In my own experience I have found the emergency Vets to be very good. I guess they have to be as they need to be sufficiently knowledgeable to deal with emergencies of all and any contingency. Please let us know how you get on.

I have no idea on what could be wrong ..... but as a "non-vet" something certainly doesn't sound right. Have you thought about going to a specialist for a second opinion? What is it that makes your Vet believe there might be a tumour on your dog's spleen? Ultrasound? Can a reaction to general anaesthetic cause the problems you are having? I'm not much use, I know. But like you, I don't like the thought of our dogs undergoing the knife unless the Vet has investigated as thoroughly as is possible and has some idea of a feasible 'plan'.

Ops! Sorry. I thought you were asking about whether your corrections should be consistent. I now think you were talking about the use of a long-line? Use the long-line at any and all times you are not certain you will achieve a re-call on command and/or when you recognise the possibility of the environment changing from one where you would, to one where you wouldn't. Even then, given his learnt behaviour, I'd be inclined to take a step backwards and return to long-line for practice work in environments when a recall is likely. This will grant you "error-less training" and you can work on pepping up reward for compliance. Seems to me that (a) you may not have generalised his training to this environment and proofed under this level of distraction; (b) that your leadership and hence his respect for your right to govern has dropped; and © that he has self-reinforced for non-compliance (so you now have learnt behaviour to deal with as well). This is not intended as a harp, nor a criticism, ILFC. I'm hoping my words will actually help you feel better about yourselves if you were to heighten your heirarchy status. Being a leader is not about being hard (or harder). It's not about being stern. You are still free to love your guy as much as you want - but it just needs to be done on your terms rather than his. (Eg. NILIF etc.) It sounds as though the behaviourist you had out gave you some sound advice. Don't waste your money nor simultaneously do any dis-favours to your dog. Remind yourself that what you would be doing by exhibiting leadership attributes is far more selfless than not doing them to feed your heart's needs. If it helps, I know what you mean. My girl (since passed) was ill for quite some time and especially in the latter months when I knew time was short, I wanted to give her the world - and certainly anything of me. I indulged myself with the usual cuddles/pats and spent as much time with her as I could, but I maintained leadership to the end as otherwise her stress levels would be increased and I had to remind myself that would hardly be a gift that I'd want to give her. Even asking for a shake paw or some small trick your dog can do easily, before attention etc. can make a difference. My girl used to act all chuffed when I asked her to do something before me giving something to her. Moreso than if I gave her something without asking for something first. Provided leadership is well and truley in place and has been for some time, I find little harm in the occasional passing pat (ie "freeby"), although I wouldn't advise this whilst trying to re-establish leadership nor for a while after.

Without prescribing to the form of corrections nor, in the absence of seeing you and your dog work in the recall exercise, as to the moment of correction, remember that consistency is one of the major keys in training. This counts whether or not you are in high, low or zilch distraction areas.

How come Melbourne hardly ever gets these people? Always Queensland or NSW. Can't blame it on our cold, wet weather either!!!! Having said that, it is RAAAAAIIIIIIINING where I am at the moment!!! Heavily!!!!! All my pot plants are out in it and the wheely-bins have their lids open to catch it!!!! Yay!!!!!! I even got drenched. Now THAT IS a novelty.