Erny

Flank sucking is an OCD and is not uncommon in dobes. OCD's generally occur as a result of anxiety (and sometimes boredom) and can become a learnt behaviour as well, perhaps even being inadvertently reinforced by their owners.

Hi SLLH .... "TOT" = Triangle of Temptation It is a program that Steve (DOL Name = K9 Force) has pinned to the top of the training forum for people to view and utilise.

Thanks SM. This is what I'd like you to try, if you will. But know that you MUST be consistent with it. Ignore all of the dogs' attempts to initiate contact. Extend what you're already doing. Act as if they don't exist. Get home, make a cup of coffee or whatever. They aren't there. Wait until they've gotten sick of waiting for your attention and snoot off someplace else to sniff or lie down etc. Wait another 30 seconds. Then do a recall (and, if you like, a sit at the end of the recall). Release your dog from the sit and THEN interact. Whilst it's good that Eddie will sit when you ignore him, think of it this way. EDDIE CHOSES to sit to get what he wants. He's not doing it on YOUR terms. He's doing it on his. In his own way, he could still be perceiving HIS actions as having initiated your attention. NILIF Program. I'm sure you're familiar with this. IE "Nothing In Life Is Free". No pat; No car ride; No walk; No play; No food treat/dinner; etc. etc. without him FIRST doing something you ask for. No getting up on the couch. At all. At the moment, at least. This is something we MIGHT be able to relax later down the track, but when we do, it will be on the basis that the dogs ONLY get up on the couch on YOUR terms (ie on a command that YOU give them). You've got it half way there .... the dogs will get off when you tell them, but THEY are chosing when to get on. No getting on the beds ... at all. Same deal as the 'couch'. We MIGHT be able to relax this later on and allow them back on the bed but only on a command. YOU eat before the dogs. I know many people don't believe this makes a difference and I recognise their arguments (in fact, many people don't believe being on the bed etc. makes a difference either), but I'm not here to argue what the dog is literally thinking. I'm here to 'wipe the slate clean' of ANY doubts either of the dogs (especially Eddie, as he is the one with the behaviour issue) might have of your "right to govern". (Note: It doesn't have to be difficult to "eat before the dogs" .... mix the dogs dinner up where they can view you; have a biscuit you can eat to one side of their bowls; when ready, pick up the biscuit and in full view of the dogs, eat it. Give the dogs their dinners once you completely finished eating your bicky. Make it a chocolate Tim Tam .... it's a good excuse anyway! You can follow the TOT program as well, if you wish to. It can't hurt and can only help. If you're willing and able to follow ALL of the above, I'd like you to do so for a MINIMUM period of 2 weeks. Doesn't mean you'll be able to stop at 2 weeks. I just tend to find that 2 weeks (give or take, depending on the dog/s) is the period by which behaviour changes can be expected to be noticed. If there has been any perception of doubt in your leadership, the 2 week period gives the dogs the time to (a) recognise the change in your strength as leader and to (b) learn to trust that it is not temporary ... that you ARE and will REMAIN their leader and they can RELY on it. In the meanwhile: Work on drop/stay exercises ... especially with Eddie Avoid having Eddie in a position where he can see you working with Molly. We need to avoid "learnt behaviour" continuing to become ingrained as habitual behaviour. SM - as I mentioned .... I'm suggesting all of this without observing or knowing your dogs. But I don't believe there is or will be any harm in putting this into action. It can only strengthen their belief in your leadership whether it is needed or not. Assuming you're willing to give this a go, please alert me once you've followed everything through for the block of 2 weeks. Remember, it is important that you are consistent, especially during this 2 week period.

Good work, SM. Now I need to ask some questions in relation to your leadership over both the dogs. What is your interaction like with them? Do they jump up at you? Do they nudge you, push you for attention, games and such like? What is their reaction to you when you first come home after an absence? Where do they sleep? When at rest during the day, where do they lay? (Assuming they are indoor dogs?) General obedience to you? When walking in (eg) heel .... do they lean/push against you? Etc Etc. Please answer just for Eddie at the moment (or I think I might get confused ).

TGD ... I haven't posted here before and until now, haven't followed your thread. I did see your original post but at the time did not have the clarity of mind to respond due to my own heart wrenching loss of which I know you are aware. But please know that, in amongst my own grief, I did send well wishes to you and to King and continue to do so to see him out and through his relapse into full health once more. Sounds like King is receiving all the help and good nursing one could wish for. Get well soon King .... we're all rooting for you. PS I too Vote 1 for thermomaster coats. My girl (who hated the cold) had one and no matter the weather, always felt toasty warm underneath it. In times when I had to go and train in the coldest of weather was envious of her coat and daydreamed about having one made for myself. She had the 'dry-as-a-bone' variety which was great as it was both waterproof but breathable.

Great work, Rom! TOT is great, but I'd also suggest that a good part of what is happening is the trust he's building in YOU by everything else you're doing too and the 'bond' that's growing as a result. Once you feel he's ready to cope with it, don't forget to introduce 'strangers' (eg. your friends) to him and building positive associations with them (and don't be afraid or embarressed to let your friends know exactly what you want them to do - I did this with my friends when I adopted my frightened girl .... they generally enjoyed being part of the 'behaviour modification' process). By then, it should be a bit easier, because his trust in you and your presence will make him feel more confident to approach and be around them. ETA: Once he's confident with the lead, try a little 'agility' work. I don't mean formally .... just coach/get him to step up onto a box and then off, of course letting him know how clever he is for doing it. Sometimes the dogs need a bit of guide, show and place to get them to do it at first, but after that, many's a time I then couldn't stop them! And to see their faces and their eyes shine with their new found confidence was a priceless gem!

I'm glad he's feeling well enough and is around to fart, as I'm sure you are too! Have you tried adding juiced up/finely chopped up parsely? I know that helps with breath .... not sure about farts, but it can't hurt.

Try working this separately to the TOT. Leash on. Treat (as you've been doing). Reach down to pat (eg. start with a pat to his body, rather than at the neck). Treat. Repeat, gradually bringing your hand forward to pat near his neck and head. Treating each time for NOT dropping to the ground. The goal always in your mind, of course, is to be able to unleash without the drop. You may or may not achieve this in one session. Don't treat if he drops and if he still drops when you remove the leash, simply walk away. When he gets up (as if to come towards you), immediately mark/praise and offer a treat. I think you're doing very well.

Ok - thanks for the info. Please do try the scenario I mentioned above. The purpose is to try to isolate the link/trigger to Eddie's behaviour. Eg. Is it Eddie's denied access to you? Is it Eddie's denied access to the combo of Molly and you? Is it a 'pack' thing and/or attention seeking? I've read your post regarding heirarchy. Heirarchy between dogs can be quite a subtle thing and I agree that, from what I read at least, it is difficult to tell. But don't rule out that Eddie could well be holding the higher status here. They are both 1 year old and at "that age" when heirarchy is becoming important to them. Be careful that you're not inadvertently reinforcing Eddie's sooking (eg. "... he starts little sooks but a rawhide bones can distract him"). I presume you're giving the rawhide bones to him BEFORE he starts sooking and not ONLY and ONCE he starts sooking? If so, this is ok. (You seem conscientious about avoiding inadvertent reinforcement.) I have a couple of (small) ideas/suggestions that might assist - at least as much as I can give with an "over the internet" style consult, but would like to refrain from expressing them until we know the answers to the scenario's.

So Eddie only behaves this way when he sees you working with Molly? Can you give us details of Eddie and Molly's relationship? Eg. Age; Heirarchy Status; Anything else of relevance? ETA: How does Eddie behave if he's tethered/crated and someone else (ie not a family member/familiar person) is working with Molly, both when: 1. You are absent from the scene. 2. You are close by to Molly.

ROM ..... :D to what you are doing for this dog and from what I read of your post, I couldn't fault a single thing. This dog needs time and you're giving it to him. He'll come 'round gradually. Good for you. Sounds like you're doing a great job with quite a lot of forethought.

Sorry to steer off the main topic, but I can't let the warm "welcome backs" and :D for my post to pass without comment. Thanks guys. Julie - need to catch up with you. I'll look up your number and will call asap. Oh .... and yes. Weather was 21-25 degrees. Loooooooovely! :p And Kelpie-i .... will catch up with you soon too. Hope pup's doing his stuff and you're both (all!) having fun. Apologies to the OP and to HR for the interruption to your thread. I trust you don't mind too much. :D

My turn to thank you, BOI.

Hi Baja. Without forgetting that 'avoidance' training involves negative AND POSITIVE training methods (often overlooked when a discussion takes place on this sort of topic), it's not that negative methods are used to attain co-operation ............ Rather, it's the negative consequences that teach the dog which road NOT to travel on (in its best interest) and the positive consequences that teach the dog which road WILL achieve good things. I've just returned from a trip from QLD, at which I visited Sea-World. Whilst watching the Dolphin 'show', the commentator made particular mention that when the Dolphins do their trick, they receive a reward (fish), but that sometimes, they simply don't want to do their trick (fish or no fish) in which case they'll just swim around on the bottom of the pool and avoid surfacing. Apart from the points that HR posted (above) in response to your post, Baja, I'd like to add here that Dolphins, Killer Whales etc. etc. are hardly mammals that we adopt and expect to blend into our 'civilised' community as we do our dogs. We might expect the Dolphins (or Killer Whales, as in your example) to 'make mistakes' and refuse the 'tricks' (in which case, the spectators normally laugh and regard as 'cute'), which is fine. Their interaction with humankind is limited, given the natural limitations of their watery world. But who will pay the price when a dog does not behave in "OUR" world in a manner which is acceptable to the general public, amongst whom we thrust our faithful friends? And who pays the price when a command to recall away from a (eg) busy road is not met? Can we afford to accept that 'cute' mistakes might occur when the price could be as high as our furry friends' lives? In those instances, do we accept that merely withholding the dogs' "fish" (so to speak) is and will always be sufficient to attain the higher degree of reliability we require in face of the fact of their high interaction amongst us humans? I don't think it's that we are "one-eyed", Baja, but perhaps that the broader picture has some permanent unpleasantries that we seek to avoid.

Thanks, you lot. I 'ran away' for a week .... to QLD to stay with some friends. It was a break, rather than a holiday. It gave me days to forget that my missing Kal was so real, so hurtful. During those days, I re-gathered some strength that I needed for me. It was difficult to get back in the car, let alone return home knowing she would not be here to greet me, and yet once here and over that initial tearful and heartbreaking moment of time, I am actually comforted with Kal all around me. Oh, but I miss her more than words can describe. There are times when it all simply feels unreal ... like she hasn't really physically gone from me - like it's all just 'pretend'. Then, there are the other times when reality hits like a sledge hammer. These feelings come and go like ocean waves crashing to the shore .... then receding. But I know Kal is 'around' .......... and this heartens me, and lends me to look forwards and onwards. The Vet who made the 'home visit' (the first and only time he'd ever met Kal, her specialist Vets being too far away) had popped by while I was away. He left a sympathetic note and an Azalea plant by way of condolence. That was special and touching. I have some things to 'face' in the next week or so. Part of the 'forwards and onwards' process. As hard as it will be to do, I know that Kal wouldn't want it any other way. But I will take my time and deal with things as and when I can. Thank you everyone - you have all contributed to make this thread into something very beautiful, though sad the outcome. I continue to receive PM's and emails and I am over-awed by the kindness of you all. I am one who has often said "The more I learn of human kind, the more I love my dog". However, let it be known that whilst I expect I will say this on more than numerous occasions into the future, you have all helped me to learn that there are many more lovely and generous hearted people out there than I had first thought. So to you, I raise my glass.

:rolleyes: You make me feel like dancin' ..... Fantastic news, Jodie! Good on you, Ollie.

This is the part that bothers me.

Thank you, IR. I was uncomfortable with the OP's description of his/her dog's ailment, although I was beginning to doubt my instincts given the other posts. I reflect back to dogs in the wild .... they would go for days without food. I wonder how their survival would have fared if they vomited because they didn't have breakfast AND dinner each day. Research tells me dogs' digestive systems haven't altered THAT much with evolution.

When I adopted my girl 6 years ago, I used to come home and she would cower .... not shaking with fear, but just cower and would approach me very hesitantly and slowly, with tail wagging but lowered and head lowered. I noticed that she would raid the garbage bag, in those early times (anxiety) and I can only deduce that she used to get told off for it when her previous owners saw the same/similar on their return. She was such a sensitive sole .... it took me a long time to get her to become confident that no matter what, there would never be any admonishment aimed at her when I got home after an absence. Sweet Kal. RIP

Questioning this (and not picking on you directly, CnR .... just chose your quote to bring up ). I know that the yellow fluid is bile, but from incidents I've seen throughout the various illnesses my own dog has endured from time to time, the bile can be present either with food (having just eaten or eaten a little while before) or without. What I'm questioning is the vomiting being due to an empty stomach. My understanding is that in a normal, healthy dog, it is good to allow their digestive system to have a break, so I wouldn't think it normal for a dog to be vomiting bile only because its tummy was empty. If it were me, seeing as this has been occurring for a while and is becoming more frequent, I'd have the dog checked out by your Vet.

Oh, Jodie! What a relief!!! I was about to telephone you ..... I was so concerned for you and Ollie dog both. Thank goodness for this news and good on you Ollie for your strength. He obviously loves you very much, Jodie, for he fights hard to keep returning to you. I wish for you and him a smoother road than has been for you both of late. May you both continue to enjoy the joys of life together for some time yet. Please give Ollie a loving pat and kiss from me, and tell him to sleep well to build up his strength. Love Erny

Spot on, HR! People MUST learn that human emotional instinct is at odds with dogs, and that if we are going to interact with them as we now do, WE MUST acknowledge they are dogs, and interact in a manner THE DOGS understand. We have the power to communicate at their level - we need to exercise that.

I'd like to know who they are. I'd like to go over to their place, point at them and demand gruffly "Which of you do this?" and then give whichever looked the most guilty a flogging. And I'm talking about the humans, not the dogs. Or maybe I should telephone them and say in an eerie voice: "I know who you are and I saw what you did ........................... " and spook the hell out of them. Only those of you who saw the movie would understand this last part. What was it ..... "Dial M for Murder" ????

Jodie ..... thinking of you and of Ollie dog, as I have done many times over the last couple of days. Post here when you can .....

Jodie ..... thinking of you and of Ollie. All my wishes for strength and healing go to him now, and to you. Hold strong. Hold positive. Love from Erny.