Erny

Perhaps, Wyvernblade ..... but it may be that the dog ONLY seeks you out for protection because in THAT (unfamiliar) environment, it feels it has no other choice but to defer to you. Back home, or in familiar territory, the Leadership a person might have thought they had could well disappear ... completely, in which case, leadership really isn't in place after all. ETA: I have worked with some dogs who's owners are established "non-leaders" (as evidenced by the dog's behaviour towards them and in the environment). I can take the lead from the owner and walk away, but the dog wants to shuffle/scurry back to the owners. It's not because it views them as its "Leaders", but more probably because I might have change a rule (eg. made training consistent) and the dog is initially unsure of this, or even confused (in the very short while).

Have you taught this dog to know when he doesn't have to do something anymore? In otherwords, when you command "sit" and he sits, does he have anything to go by to know when he doesn't have to sit anymore? Many people don't think about this, and assume their dog should know when they still want them to sit and when they don't. . If you leave the dog to figure that one out for themselves, it is not the dog who is wrong when he/she gets up .... it is a training fault. KK: I don't actually agree with this either, sorry KK. By the sounds of it, the dog's not playing anybody. He's just responding to the training he's received. None of this is the dog's fault nor the dog's doing. It's not that I'm judging the OP here - congratulations by taking the responsible step of attending obedience school to learn. But I really want to make a point of getting it out of anyone's head/thoughts that the dog is doing anything else but responding to the law of learning. IE "For every behaviour there is a consequence." Take some time to ponder on that one. It is the answer for every reason behind every behaviour.

The problem with simply "asking trainers" for advice on one thing or another, is that when you receive a "tip" that's ALL people then do. There can be many different reasons for behaviour and a number of different things to do towards behaviour modification .... not just "one thing". Can't say I favour the alpha roll method, but that's not really the point of my post here. People with dogs with behaviour issues should, IMO, seek out a reputable and competant behaviourist and should follow the advice given, keep regular contact and take regular lessons from that person. That way you can be coached in dealing with your dog's behaviour overall. This is why over the net advice is not good. People insist on "hints" but take the hint and apply it singularly to anything else. And unless you engage a qualified person to coach you, "hints" in the literal sense of the word is generally all a person can give - and not even specific to your own dog.

IMO it is not a matter of "pups born with aggression". Aggression is a survival trait. It is whether the threshold for reactivity is low or high. Genetics plays a part here, but a great part is the role we play in providing our pups/dogs with an endless broad spectrum of exposure to those things we take for granted; in our demonstration as leaders; and in our early identification of behaviours that are not socially acceptable (either to us or to other dogs) and quick but clear and consistant guidance as to the behaviours that will better serve our dogs to get what they want.

Nope - no dog is that. It seems that his "teaching" hasn't been consistent, nor black and white. He thinks he can do these things simply because he's been able to before. Time to take control. "NILIF" as others have suggested. "Triangle of Temptation (K9 Force)" as also suggested. And when you want him to do something (eg sit and stay seated) be in a position where you have the control to follow through when he breaks the position. I haven't read right through all the posts, but if you don't go to training, or haven't been before where you have learnt HOW to train a dog to the level of obedience you require, I'd suggest you look into it. And, by the sounds of it, you need to do this soon. Remember always though, it's not the dog's fault. It's the fault of the training. ETA: Just caught the fact that you've started obedience training. Good. The reason your dog works for you in "fake" (as you put it) situations is because he is pairing your body language with that of what is required of him. In "real life" situations, your body language is different and I expect you move about, turn your back etc. etc. ...... all stuff he hasn't been trained in. This is the kind of stuff you need to do to proof your dog in training, so he will know that (eg) "sit" means "sit" even though you're doing other stuff. Dogs are simple thinkers, and they think in terms of images and sequences. They don't reason. If you teach "sit" when you're standing up straight and looking right at him, he'll think that's when he's supposed to sit. If you don't teach "sit" when you're doing other things (such as turning your back and focusing on Maise), Champa's quite right to think he doesn't have to "sit" or "leave" or whatever anymore. Sounds like you've taught him well ...... but just not in enough applications under enough distraction. Good luck. Keep patient. If you "lose it" remember, it's not Champa's fault. Go yell at a statue or something, but not Champa.

Try to increase your powers of recognising the very early warning signs that your dog is thinking about doing something, and your timing to act upon it first. Stopping your dog "while she's charging off to bite" is still later than it should ideally and most effectually be. Having someone video you and your dog for you so you can learn these prior signs will probably be a big help to you too. You need to teach your dog that charging off to bite is not intrinsic to her survival. If you don't, she will continue to believe that it is, and her confidence in this tactic will remain. Stopping the "charge" does not work towards modifying her emotions towards the "other dog".

Hey! Don't be too hard on yourself! You got the "Pat" bit right!. :wink:

I got the impression he ate the flannel as a "whole piece" ..... did he tear it into pieces as he's done with the above? That's the big difference and I think that's why some of us are alarmed.

His body is trying to process/eliminate the salt, I suspect. I worry enough over Kal swallowing things such as freezer bags (her meat wrapping), let alone the thought of a flannel. I can't imagine it disintegrating down fast enough to make the journey through both the large and small intestine. Don't just wait for your dog to poo. Faeces might pass, but the flannel may remain in the gut and rot, setting up toxicity ..... I know a dog this happened to. Swallowed some type of hard rubber ball (don't know where it came from). Owners didn't know until the dog starting fitting. Luckily, it was chance that the owner was home at the time. A rush to the Vet and surgery saved the dog, but only just in time. Going by the look of the ball and the toxicity levels, the Vet suggested the ball had been sitting in the dog's gut for approx 6 weeks. The dog had been urinating and defacating and running around normally until then. Whilst I hope that you and your dog will simply be lucky, I can only say that I wouldn't be waiting for things to happen. ETA: But then, that's me. I think I was put here on this earth so that Vets could retire early. :rolleyes:

Hi Noisymina Welcome to the world of "spot the good Vets ..... if you can". I know there's some good one's out there, and to them ..... - don't wish to tar you with the same brush as others, but I do know how difficult and how expensive it is to track them down, given that mostly it's a matter of trial and error, with the dog owner paying for both the trial/s and the error/s. :p I don't know that anyone could specifically answer your questions here on the net - to do so might be a bit dangerous as diagnosis could so easily be wrong. They may, however, be able to relate similar stories/situations of their own pets. But even then, your dog could be in a different story as theirs. I can't help you myself (though lordy knows Kal's had/got every other infliction going :cool: ) but I hope you manage to cut to the chase and solve this problem sooner rather than later. I will stretch to hazard a guess though (except pardon me, as I'm no Vet) ..... Is it possible that there is a foreign body that is/was the cause of the lump, and that it has 'migrated'? Would it be a simple procedure for the Vet to simply lance the lump? Or I wonder if there are any "drawing" properties that can be used to draw it out? (Human equivalent would be something like "magnoplasm"). Give a dog's tendancy to lick/chew etc., though, this might not be feasible and if it is in too deep could well be ineffective. My thoughts only, and possible well off base. Let us know how you go. In the meantime, I'm sure others might have some better suggestions and more helpful advice.

Were her back legs wobbly this time? Perhaps there is still something further amiss skeletally that requires a re-visit with the chiro. I'm not suggesting you shouldn't go for a specialist consult (in fact I think that's what I suggested in an earlier post), but if it does turn out to be a totally skeletal problem, physio/chiro consults will be far cheaper than an MRI, as your Vet had suggested would be next. Have you contacted the chiro and explained what your dog is still doing - the chiro may insist that everything is now properly adjusted, or might request a re-visit. ETA: I got to admit .... I'm thinking neurological issues, though.

Not quite the case, H. It was more the allusive and suggestive way you wrote it - the emoticon wink only served to confirm the tone. I don't see any posts that are defensive, though. We're talking about a prong collar. Nothing to be defensive about, IMO. If you were "wondering", would it not have been more helpful to the OP to have simply come out and say it, rather than posing it to allude to possible different connotations? I was going to suggest as K9 did. IE Dog asserting its perceived right to govern/control the owner. At times, it can also be through a state of confusion - not understanding what's being asked of it (re-directing frustration at the lead), but then that is usually more trainer/handler error in not being as clear to the dog as required. Would you agree K9?

Dang it ..... visited this thread earlier today. Thought the answer would be here by now. Waiting ........................................

Thanks Dan. We're both (Kal and I) doing what we can. She's come inside and is resting on her mat close by me. She just did a big stretch and fart. That's a pretty normal sign, me thinks. Hangin' in there for the blood test results.

Kal had another GM seizure late this morning. Not as violent as the first, but seemed to last longer. Resperation rate part way through was EXTREMELY alarming. Waiting for results of stimulation blood tests she had done last Thursday. Vet not in today. Expecting call tomorrow with results. I was going to wait until then to post the above, but the thread is turning out to be a handy record of what has happened and when. Other than the seizure, Kal is looking well, and has been a bit better on her 'up' days and not as bad on her 'down' days. Weigh-in (last Thursday) = 29.2kg. That's 0.8kg off her goal weight. (I don't want her too heavy, given that she is intolerant to exercise.) She's outside (her choice) on her bean bag, resting (under her blanket, of course ). I know she will be in your thoughts. I'll post as soon as I get the blood results via the Vet. Edited spelling error. Not a biggie, but it annoyed me.

I don't know. But I do know that in the absence of the Vet being able to determine, I'd be seeking a referral to a specialist. Does this only occur at night time? Hazarding a guess (stab in the dark, really) .... perhaps something skeletal is out of place? Uncomfortable to lie down and rest? Might explain the weakness you describe in the back legs? Could be one of a number of things. See a specialist, or at least a reputable Vet with sound knowledge of behaviour as well as of muscular/skeletal conditions. Go from there. Good luck. I hope your Mum's Dog's journey to recovery is short and simple. Please let us know how you get on.

:D :D :D You really know a person is a true dinkey seasoned dog person when they show an avid interest and excitement in dog poo. And, of course, I guess that stands for those who share in that excitement too! Great stuff Oscar! Congratulations on a good s#@t!

Glad she is home and comfortable, Rozzie. I sincerely hope she fully recovers and leaves the incident well behind her.

Helen - yes, it sure it a rollercoaster ride and that's an understatement. Prayers coming your way from me ..... I seem to be spending so much time talking to Him up there (points upwards) I must be one of his best customers, so I'm sure He'll be able to spare enough healing miracles to help Oscar, Lucinda, Margali, Ollie dog, Goldie and, naturally ..... Kal .

You're right ..... pity more people couldn't see that and fight the proposed legislation to ban BEFORE it came into power. The use of a prong is banned here in Victoria, so of course none of us use them here ..... :wink: (Funnily, they're deemed 'cruel' here but not when we cross the border. ) I'd love to see renewed vigour in reversing the legislation against this valuable piece of equipment. One day.

I think I read that too, DBS. I presume the diet was changed as well. "Increased" muscle tone? Or should that be "decreased" muscle tone? The problem with these symptoms is that they can be attributed to other causes unrelated to thiamine deficiency ..... just to make it terribly confusing and dang hard and expensive to work out. If only there was a simple blood test for thiamine deficiency. My Vet at Werribee says there isn't one for animals, but surely ........ ? Perhaps I should try to email Dr. Singh for an answer there. (I did go to, but couldn't find a "contact" addy. Will look again. ) There's got to be something more simple, rather than ditching all Kal's food in the freezer and changing her diet around again. :D

Hi Jodie! I hope you are feeling better. ;) If Ollie is seeking out the tiles to go on then I'd suggest he's not forgotten his toilet training, but just can't make it to the right spot in time. Of course, there is the factor that medication can affect their bladder control and when they've had an 'accident' once or twice, the memory of that might lead to a habit? Eg. Kal has been taught to go around to the back yard. When I had turf laid down to form a grassed track from the front to the back, I taught her not to pee on that (her pee kills grass something chronic). When she was feeling very down (after the seizure) and weak, she went across to the grass track and peed on it. I don't think she had the strength to walk further. Now, even though she can manage it quite well, I notice that she goes back to the grass track when she thinks I'm not looking. :D Oh well .... the spot she pees on has clover weed growing in it, so at least she's killing that for me.

Good point about the "residue". Do I ring the health dept direct without saying anything/asking further questions of the butcher? I'd hate to cause these butchers undue duress particularly if there is nothing wrong with the roo mince or if the butcher hasn't done anything with it. (Either accidentally or otherwise.) Thanks for your thoughts Staffyluv. I'm off to have a quick read of your recent post .... trusting that everything is going well for yours.

Yes - for approximately the last 18 months, save for the vegies and soaked rolled oats and omega blend oil. Yes - that's pretty much been the catalist for her putting on weight. I put that down to the increase in fat content, which the roo meat doesn't have. :D I agree ..... except the wholesale butchers that I purchase through tell me they get the kangaroo in whole, and mince it there for me when I order it. On occasions I've forgotten to order ahead, and they've told me "it's frozen, so we can't mince it". They also told me (I asked when I was trying to locate a stockist) that they don't add anything to the meat when they mince it. I thought that was when SD is added .... IE - when it's minced? How else could they add it to a carcus that's in whole pieces. Also, there is no labelling on the package. At all. I wonder if I should keep the plastic it came in, for evidence, should I need it? (They vacuum seal it.) Thanks Abz. ;) I have the next couple of days off. I will enjoy spending it with my girl (and re-catching up on the housework .... a little bit, at least ).

I received the Sulphur Dioxide test strips, ran the test and sent the results in. This is what they've reported: "The test was not calibrated for roo meat but for lamb and beef, so I cannot be absolutely certain that you have found a high level. There are some amino acids in meat that release sulphur dioxide and so can confuse the test, and I don't know whether roo meat contains higher levels of these. That said, I would be very suspicious that there is in fact a high level of sulphites in the mince. Sausages can contain 300ppm and are regarded as high, so 200ppm [which is the result of the test I ran on Kal's meat] is certainly a concern. I would suggest that you consider changing your butcher for a time - find one who is willing to grind your mince from fresh meat that you buy from them un-minced ... and make sure that they understand that you don't want any extra things put in - no "salt", no "meta", no "white powder" (these are all names for sodium metabisulphite that butchers use ... ). See what happens over a period of three or four weeks. Obviously there may be something else wrong with your dog, [yep, he's right, but I wonder if thiamine deficiency has contributed to Kal's poor health]but trying this cannot hurt at all. And you are right, adding extra Vitamin B doesn't help if there is sulphite there to break it down." Why can't things ever be simple?!!! I only just purchased 8kg human grade roo mince. I had a hard enough time as it was finding someone reasonably local to supply human grade roo mince, so I don't expect it's going to be easy to source out another stockist. What about chicken fillets? I wonder if I take Kal off the roo mince altogether and simply (but expensively ) increase the chicken fillets to make up for it. Is SD added to chicken fillets? I wouldn't have thought so, but I guess I could run another SD test. :sigh: ETA: I'm taking Kal back to Werribee Vets for another blood run tomorrow. There's a few tests they're running (as a result of the info from USA) - they have spoken to a local lab who can do them. IF the results of these tests show an increase in certain sex hormones, there's a possibility Kal's condition can be treated (although not simply) with drug therapy (Mitotane). IF Kal has a brain tumour, the Mitotane MIGHT have an effect on that too, but this would depend on what type of tumour she has (if she has one). If the blood tests DON'T show a rise in these certain sex hormones, there's nothing much more I can do than I am already doing. An MRI or CT may be indicated, but these are expensive (especially the MRI!) so we are going to wait for the blood results first and then plan from there. There is a blood test we can't do out here - only in USA. But the result of that one blood test would only be of benefit academically speaking, and would not impact on what we are now doing. As the USA blood run would cost in the vicinity of $700.00 (including transport costs), I'm not going to do it just for the fun of it. The costs for the blood run we're doing tomorrow are exhorbitent enough! :D