Erny

Ruffles - If Loki is not 100% housetrained, then he still shouldn't be left unobserved. IF your own observations are reliable, then this might be marking, rather than housetraining issues. If it is, then I'd recommend you investigate your heirarchy status as perceived by him. :rolleyes: Also watch you don't use ammonia based products to clean up the mess.

Staffylover: :rolleyes: Sounds like he's got you sorted out already....... ..... and that he's learnt how to get YOU to give HIM what HE wants, but not the other way around. It's not JUST about stopping the behaviour at THAT moment, but about generally weakening the behaviour as time goes on, so the pup becomes less and less inclined to mouth. IMO 'Sin-binning' (as opposed to what many people refer to as 'time-out') is a good method, provided it serves to reduce the frequency and intensity of the behaviour, until the behaviour is extinguished altogether. Housetraining takes vigilance. You need to be watchful of him when he's inside ... looking for those early warning signs that tell you he's thinking of toileting. Restrict access to any of the other rooms of the house other than the one you're in. That way, you can keep better watch. Take him out first thing; after play; after feeding; after sleep; and at any other time if he simply hasn't been for a while. If you're vigilant, housetraining GENERALLY takes about 2 weeks (can be earlier for some, a bit longer for others) before you see the signs that he knows what he's supposed to do. Once he starts to take himself outside, don't think housetraining is over. A dog shouldn't be considered "housetrained" until there's been no accidents inside for at least 4 weeks after the pup has shown the initial signs that he understands about going outside. Make sure you take your pup to the same spot each time and as much as possible, get HIM to walk out (call him out or use lead, for example) rather than pick him up and carry him. Naturally, lots of praise when he wees outside. You can also introduce a 'cue' word - this will be handy for you later on. There are still many people who believe this, and I will not start a debate on the subject here, as it has been done in length on DOL before. However, IMO, pups lose valuable socialisation time within their critical period this way. (Critical period generally, but not always, finishes at week 16.) It is my opinion, and experience, that dogs end up much more prepared for life if sensible and positive socialisation begins from 8 weeks old. I see your pup has someone with him the majority of the time - don't forget about independence training so your pup doesn't become dependent on the presence of someone all the time and then become panicked when this is not possible. Ruffles: I'd suggest house training was not completed (read response to Staffylover above). You should continue house training and not allow your dog in the house where he cannot be supervised.

As with any equipment, the user should be schooled in how to use it properly. I hear what the OP says about not going to classes because of dog aggression issues, however I feel that for the dog's sake, working on obedience, receiving the appropriate tuition on "how to" (re the equipment and teaching of obedience) as well as on the desensitisation/management of the dog's issues would be for the best. Having in-home lessons to begin with is good - but they will only work if: 1. You engage a trainer/instructor qualified for the job; and 2. You follow through CONSISTENTLY with the advice given. If you do consider going to classes, you will need to check first that the school you're going to go to have instructors equipped with the knowledge to help you deal with your dog's aggression issues. Provided you're prepared to follow through with the advice given, both in relation to obedience training and behaviour modification, I'd be surprised if things did not improve for your mum, assuming she goes to the appropriate training club for her dog. Of course, I can recommend one .... you're in Melbourne, right? Australian Dog Training If you're a member of this training club, in-house training can be given at a discounted rate. Feel free to PM me if you have further questions. :rolleyes:

Apart from the usual training commands (sit; drop etc.) and of course, trick commands (roll over; pray; etc), Kal knows: 1. Wait - to this she will stop and wait for me - it is different to "stand" as she knows I don't care if she sits to wait or turns around to face me etc. 2. "Wanna go for a drive?" 3. "Want your tea"? 4. car - which to her means she can get in. A handy command, as when I got her, I found she'd jump in any car that had its door open. 5. through - another handy one if I need her to go through doorways etc before me (she'd otherwise wait). Also used in agility at tunnels. 6. Dougal - her best friend 7. Monty - her 'cousin' 8. Mum & Dad - her second most favourite people 9. Kerry & Sue - other human friends 10. bath 11. guard the house/car (ie you can't come with me). To this cue, if she's home, she'll trot off to her bed and wait for her blanket to be put on. It's a separation anxiety coping strategy we developed from her early days with me. 12a. off the garden. 12b. off - (ie get off whatever you're on .. don't return) 13. hop off (ie move, and I'll fix your bed ... then you can get back on ) 14. up ya get (ie you can get back on now ;) ) 15. puss, puss, puss - always gets her ears pricked 16. yes 17. you can come - always gets me a tail wag 18. wag your tail - sometimes gets me a tail wag (depending on her mood ) 19. You wanna surprise!? - gets very excited (for Kal) .. knows a special treat is coming. 20. out of the kitchen 21. oiy! a very mild aversive - ie you'll get in trouble if you don't stop that. 22. Wanna go for a walk? 23. Where's your bed? - to which she'll trot off to it (loves her bed) 23. Outside 24. Toilet - ie that's what I want her to do 25. Quick Quick - cue to eliminate. 26. **** - her private "eat" command. 27. Where's your collar - means we're going somewhere, she has to find it. 28. easy - a command I use when leading off the bike - cues her to slow down and be ready 28. liberal - another bike command - means "turn right" 29. labor - another bike command - means "turn left" 30. free - her command "release" word. 31. What? or Show me - when I don't understand what she wants. 32. jump - used in agility at the jumps 33. over - used in agility at the A frame 34. walk on - used in agility at the dog walk and seesaw 35. Work - used to 'cue' her to scent detect. 36. Find it - used to cue her to find the lemon scent - well, that's what I trained her on. Haven't needed to find lost lemons, to date. 37. lay down - informal 'drop' command. Doesn't matter if she gets up afterwards. 38. Leave - don't sniff at/touch that. I'm sure there's more ... I'll add it to my list when I think of them. Some (but not all) of these 'cue' words responded to if/when they are accompanied by a certain tone; facial expression and body language (eg a finger wave/point/motion). Funnily, the word "tea" doesn't require much else to support its meaning! This thread is handy. I've printed Kal's post and will give it to my sister. Kal's staying with her soon for a few days. Last time, I forgot to tell my Sister Kal's word for getting in the car. They spent an age saying all sorts of things. In the end, they had to pick her up and put her in.

Harp away, Dogbesotted .... I've been doing enough of that myself with the Vet we're seeing. I will not discount Addisons. To date, it is the closest thing that I know of that Kal's symptoms match. I will wait for the results of the abdominal ultrasound though. If that is clear, I will request a test for Cushings & Addisons. Thank you - the links you've been providing are really informative. I've been printing them out. My desk is buried under medical paperwork! I feel like I've earnt a first year Vet grad's certificate!

Thank you, IR. I'm feeling a bit happier today knowing that steps are being taken to further investigation into her condition. If the ultrasound shows clear (I hope it does) I guess it's a matter of discussing with the Vet "what next". It seems the test for Cushings and Addisons is the same/similar? (ACTH). Even though the Vet doesn't believe it is either, in the absence of something else more likely, I think I will have the blood tests done, if for no other reason than to completely rule them out (and spend my "excess" money ).

Relieved and happy for you, Pampa. I'm sure your care and attention in these preceding tough weeks has made the all the difference.

Vet's response to my most recent emails: 1. He tested for EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency) at Kal's last visit and it was normal. 2. Although he suggests it is unusual for dogs to have no clinical signs and no secondary laboratory evidence for Cushing's, it CAN happen and he will conduct definitive tests for Cushing's if I desire. 3. Pancreatic tumour is a possibility and he has suggested an abdominal ultrasound. 4. Kal's signs don't suggest hyperthyroidism to him and there is no secondary evidence from the blood tests, but he has said he will do a definitive test if I desire. 5. In response to my suggestion that perhaps Kal is one of those dogs that functions normally on a pancreas that functions higher than 'normal', he feels this is unlikely, but again suggests the possibility of a pancreatic tumour is certainly a consideration (amongst other abdominal organ dysfunctions). 6. He suggests Kal's weight variations as reported are within the normal limits we would expect from day to day. 7. None of the blood tests that Kal has had show any support for a diagnosis of Addison's. He also suggests it is typically a disease of younger dogs, mostly 2-5 years. I'm going to call him now and see what is required for the abdominal ultrasound ... I don't know if it's necessary to fast for this ... if so, today is out of the question. . Will post back here with the results when I have them. ETA: I rang - they said fasting is necessary. Although Russell won't be there, I've made an appointment with radiology for tomorrow.

Pampa ...... are you ok? How's your girl fairing? Almost afraid to ask ... so hopeful for good/positive news. Thinking of you two alot - good wishes.

I can't attest to "impoliteness" or "unpleasantness" because he wouldn't speak to me directly. Simply a fairly point blank message via the receptionist that he didn't have the time to pursue Kal's medical condition (even though he had prescribed to it). Yep - you're right ... probably a "bad day" - it didn't make my day any better either.

I find that very strange I have been taking all my dogs to Barry for years, easily 8 years now, and I have never had anything like this happen. He has always been very polite and taken the time out needed for my dogs. If he did happen to be busy and couldn't stop to talk on the phone - he always told the girls at reception to apologise for him and what to say. He has always been very open and discussed what he thought he could or could not help my dogs with. Perhaps it was a "one off" . But it definately happened that way to me. As I said, my dumb luck I guess.

I know what you say, here, Helen. I've also gone to professionals that others haven't thought much of but with whom I've had success. That's why I think it's a case of "what works for you and your dog". Barry has a good following, as I mentioned in my earlier post - he wouldn't have achieved that if he was all bad. However, I don't think it unfair of me to post of my experience (not that anyone suggested that I was unfair). Chances are, Kal's case has (and is still) a bit of a 'curly' and he was too busy to dedicate the time to help me sort it out. Bad timing, perhaps. Although he was, IMO, particularly rough in his skeletal manipulation. Maybe I just have that sort of 'dumb luck' with trying to find professionals who can really (want to) help us out.

Pampa - you'll find us all praying with you in one form or another.

Kimjm .... I think I already offered this up as a possible cause for the way I was treated. But thanks for the explanation anyway. I know what it's like to be busy - at one point of time, I was working 114 hours a week (I kid you not.) But if I took the work on, I never aborted it part way through. And the line of work I was in at the time had no relation to an animal's health. I don't think there is a suitable defence in this case, but I accept that's probably WHY he did it.

Thank you, Dogbesotted - I actually looked that up the other day and thought "maybe". If I remember rightly, I think it's diagnosed by an ACTH blood test, as is Cushings Disease. I forgot to add this one to my list. I must admit, the list of symptoms in your post seem more detailed than the one I read, and I could probably say that Kal has, at one time or another through this saga, displayed each one of them. I shall add this to my list of suggestions for checking. I will go to the links you've given and have a further read up on it. I REALLY so appreciate the concern you've all expressed, and the thoughts you've obviously put into this to be troubled enough to help us. From the bottom of my heart - thank you. I will re-visit here when I get further information (dare I say "progress") ? Thank you all. What a long tale for you to go through. Thanks for allowing me to share it.

This is what I've emailed Russell Mitten today, after he wrote suggesting that I make an appointment "if [i'm] still concerned". "Russell - thank you. Of course I'm still concerned ... nothing's been resolved and I was hoping we could work to find out what's going on. Kal vomited up her breakfast Saturday morning just gone, and I notice today (Sunday 12th February) that her hip bones have become more prominant - perhaps not by much, but something I have not noticed previously. Something's definately wrong. I acknowledge that her bloods are 'clear' and that 'we' don't know what else to check for. I guess that's why I'm endeavouring to do some of my own investigational enquiries, although I realise this might not be appreciated by a professional. Unless you've got any other ideas, I figured testing for the following MIGHT be worthwhile: 1. EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency 2. Cushings Disease - whilst you mention there's no clinical signs suggesting this, isn't that the problem with Cushings Disease - that the symptoms are not overt until later down the track and that many of them are put down to 'old age', given that it normally affects the more elderly dogs? 3. Pancreatic tumour - although the bloods indicated no presence of tumour, didn't you mention that it's not ALWAYS conclusive? Perhaps an ultrasound to confirm is prudent? 4. Hyperthyroidism - from what I can gather, dogs are more likely to contract hypothyroidism which, at Kal's age anyway, would show symptoms of weight gain. I can find no readings on dogs with hyperthyroidism - only cats. Is hyperthyroidism possible in dogs at all? I feel hyperthyroidism is the least likely of all, but don't know if it's worth checking. Perhaps her bloods already eliminate this anyway? I can't help thinking/feeling her condition relates to pancreatic disorder. I understand bloods indicate her pancreatic function as 'normal', but I also understand that SOME dogs require a higher pancreatic function than 'normal' for the rest of their body to function normally. Could it not be possible that Kal is one of those dogs? If I'm really barking up the wrong tree, please tell me. But Kal is definately not well ... I'm hoping that someone will work with me to determine what's going on. I have been weighing Kal weekly. The first weigh in was on Monday 23rd January - 27.2kg Demeanor was low. Lethargic. Weather was 40 degrees celcius Kal was inside with air conditioner running. I fasted Kal on the following Wednesday 25th January. On 29th January, the weather was 33-35C. I kept Kal inside from 12.00 noon with airconditioning running. When I returned from training (approx 6pm), her demeanor was very good - bouncy and we had a game of chasey up and down the hallway. The second weigh in was on Monday 30th January - 27.7kg (yay!) Demeanor was good (not brilliant, but good) Weather was 23 degrees celcius. The third weigh in was on Monday 6th February - 27.5kg Demeanor - quiet. Appearance - drawn; coat dullish (compared to usual) Weather was 23C. Kal actually began to appear a bit better - both physically and in spirit, come Wednesday through to Friday. On Saturday 11th February, 2006, she vomited her breakfast. Was off her food that morning and was very low throughout the day. She was eager for her dinner that night and held it down. This morning (Sunday, 12th February) she eagerly ate breakfast and as far as I can tell (I've been training all day) there was no vomiting. Demeanor is ok, although not as spirited as could be. I will weigh her again tomorrow (Monday, 13th February). I have been weighing her at the same place at around the same time of the day. I have ensured that she has not been fed beforehand and that she has the same lead and collar on at the time of weigh-in. The scales have been reset to "0" each time to ensure accuracy and consistency. Should I not be concerned? Do you think you can help us? Regards"

Thanks Curlyking - I agree, you can only go by how you 'find' a person. I know there's a lot of people who speak highly of him (Barry). Through my experience, I felt very let down. I think many of Alex Haller's patients were referred over to Barry when Alex became ill (very sad thing too ... Alex was one of the first people to acknowledge I wasn't being paranoid and that there WAS something wrong with Kal, and helped me to work towards a resolution - a lovely caring person to boot) and I think perhaps Barry became too busy too quickly. Maybe he's 'settled' down again by now, but you're right .... we were brushed off with very little interest and that shouldn't have happened. If he'd told me he ONLY was interested in the chiropractic side of things and not the veterinary side of things, I wouldn't have gone there, but I had been assured he could look after both. Never mind - so long as he's doing good for many others, I guess that's the main thing.

Greytmate - take comfort in that Sam had a wonderful life in a home filled with love and care, and that with his new 'wings' he now races before the wind. Really sorry for your loss .... sometimes it's hard being human.

Oh Pampa .... I do hope she'll be ok. I did know about the rat poison being able to take 10-14 days to become symptomatic, but if it makes you feel better, I only found that out about 5 weeks ago. With all your worry, I'm humbled that you took time out to post in Kal's and my thread - thank you. Good wishes for a speedy and whole recovery for your girl.

Thanks Tramissa. Good point - have thought to do this. Figured I can maybe get them to send file to new Vet.

"Shit" being the operative word, Pampa To say I'm frustrated with all of this - it's being going on for 2 years ..... progressively, with what seems to be new symptoms joining the old. Haven (DOL member) has given me a Vet recommendation - think I'll be taking her up on that. In the meantime, I'll keep smiling and working towards finding out what the heck's going on .... and, of course, loving my dog.

Double post

Dru - that's what I'm thinking. Russell Mitten only works Tuesdays ... a bit more often outside University 'semesters', but he's semi-retired and also lectures for the Vet University. And he was away for one week. I respect his knowledge and thought at the time that he was working with me - trying to nut out what Kal's problem is. Given all of this I was prepared to wait .... it's also such a slog going through a new Vet (I've done that a few times ) who seem to insist on a lot of repetative poking and probing, which causes Kal lots of stress, and me lots of expense. However, given the latest, I think I have no alternative.

Here's a copy of the email I sent to Russell on 25th January, 2006. "Thank you, Russell, for your trouble. Endeavouring not to be obsessed with Kal's condition ... I am finding it difficult not for it to be frequently on my mind, given her constant presence around me. I don't know if I reported this, but I have noticed, particularly over the last several months or so, the weakening of her leg muscles. This began with a general decline of muscle mass in her rear legs, and followed with a loss of muscle mass in her shoulders. Following the decline in muscle mass, not surprisingly, she has become noticeably more feeble. It is easy to knock her over. She will stumble more often than one would expect to be normal. Yesterday, she was sniffing the ground, went to take a step, but even before her front paw had left the ground, she nearly fell on her face. Today she ran to the gate to 'greet' a visitor, and as she came to a halt, almost collapsed in her back end, as if she had little control over where her back legs were going (they tend to slip out sideways, in opposition to each other). In fact, now I recollect numerous moments when this has happened and although I could always give an excuse for them, it is not something that used to occur as often and with as much control loss. Maybe these are signs that you can attribute to bring us closer to finding the cause of Kal's unwellness. Maybe I'm barking way up the wrong tree, but I'm wondering if the tests you ran, and their results, would negate "Cushings Disease". Maybe these additional 'symptoms' are something else .... maybe they are nothing. Whatever the case, I know there is something wrong. And I know I have to find out what it is - if only so I can work to keep her as comfortable as possible, with some empathy and understanding, and know what to look out for, on her behalf. I apologise for disturbing you again and hope you do not find my contact with you an irritant or imposition." And here's a copy of a further one I sent on 27th January, 2006 "Russell - yet another email from me. At the suggestion of Kal's chiro (rightly or wrongly) I fasted Kal. The fasting began after her breakfast on 25th January, and she had her next meal mid-late afternoon on 26th January. Somewhere between 6.00am and 2.00pm on 26th January, Kal vomited. I wasn't home at the time - due to the heat I left her inside with the airconditioning running. The vomit comprised mainly of water, it seems (not surprisingly), but the liquid was tinged a reddy-browny colour. I am concerned this might have been blood. There were two vomits evident - one smaller amount and then one somewhat larger amount. I can only presume the larger volume was first, with the small volume second. Kal is lethargic (but then, aren't we all given the run of hot weather we've had), but is eager for her meals and licks up every last morsel. She is feeble/weak, though - it doesn't take a lot to knock her off her feet. My concern level has escalated. I am readying myself as much as possible to come in to see you on Tuesday, assuming you suggest the same. I hope you can fit her in. I wouldn't be able to get there until the afternoon (say, 2.00 pm at the earliest, due to a work commitment). I have thought about taking her to emergency ... but I'm loathe to have yet another new Vet taking the steps and time to become familiar with Kal and her history. I'm on stand by for your advice and instructions at the moment." Russell replied on 9th February, 2006, advising along the lines that her clinical condition didn't suggest Cushings Disease and, in relation to muscle mass, this could be related to age. He told me if I'm still concerned, to make an appointment for next Tuesday (ie 14th February). Now, in between all of this, I've been weighing Kal weekly. First weigh in (on a Monday) - 27.2kg. Fasted after breakfast the following Wednesday until Thursday night, when I gave her dinner. Second weigh in (the following Monday) - 27.7kg. Third weigh in (last Monday) - 27.5kg. Kal vomited again this morning (losing her breakfast). Although she's held down her dinner. Over the last few days, until today's vomit and following lethargy, I thought she might have been beginning to look a little better and maybe gained a bit more weight. She now looks skinnier again. I'm thinking I will request the following tests be done (given that no other suggestions from her current Vet have been forthcoming): Blood test for EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency) ACTH blood test for Cushings Disease/Syndrome Ultrasound (pancreas) and, maybe (because I'm getting desperate to get to the bottom of this) a blood test for Hyperthyroidism. Not sure about the Hyperthyroidism - seems cats get this, but dogs get Hypothryroidism, and Kal's symptoms definately don't include weight gain. That's her latest update. I don't know what I'm doing and I don't know if I'm alone in this (with her) or not. Hope I haven't bored everyone - it's got to the stage where I figure I can print this thread out for a running commentary if I end up needing to tell yet another Vet a bit about her story. If you got to this far, thanks for reading.

I was referred to Barry by Alex Haller who used to practice in Dandenong. Part way through Kal's treatment, Alex became seriously ill and had to give up the practice. I then went to Barry. Kal had complications - a combo of irritable bowel which made her arch her back with the pain, which in turn put her back out, over time. Barry manipulated Kal - (it was the most painful manipulation she'd yet experienced) and instructed me to keep Kal on medication (cortisone) for a certain period of time. (I had informed Barry that she was already on the meds and it wasn't working to ease the IBS). I was to call Barry back in (i think it was) 2 weeks. I did so (to tell him Kal was no better) .... he didn't speak to me, but passed a message to tell me that he was too busy and didn't really have the time to deal with her medical problem. That's when I searched and found Kevin Kelly. Just to finish the story, I dealt with the IBS pretty much on my own, but with some help from Dr. Bruce Syme, who is a Vet in Castlemain (he produces "Vets All Natural" products.) It wasn't the V.A.N. that I kept her on - but he gave me some advice on foodstuffs (natural) to feed to help treat/control the IBS.