Erny

Scope - thanks for the response. But I would also like to point out that ADT is not simply about correcting the dog. It is about using tonnes of positive stuff as reward and as motivation. It is about reliability in obedience so you can use that to help keep your dog and others safe. It is about making the messages 'black and white' to make it easier for the dog to learn, making it clear what behaviours will receive all that good stuff. As for the 'problem' dogs (ie dogs with issues) ... it is about the owners learning how to re-gain control, act as leaders so your dog can be assured that in stressful situations it can rely on YOU to control them; and, of course, working to alter the dog's emotional state to have them understand that the world isn't out to 'get them'. Admittedly, there are some cases that cannot be cured - these are nearly always the ones where the issues relate to the dog's critical period as a pup. However, in those cases, we work with the owners to improve the behaviour to a manageable level. You don't get there (either in obedience or behaviour modification) by corrections alone. Attached is a copy photo of one of ADT's members and his dog. Started through pups and is in our Advance Class. You don't get that type of behaviour by simply correcting your dog and not putting in anything else to the training. Hope the photo works - haven't done this before.

An ethical breeder? I only want one with good hip and elbow scores. I want him to be de-sexed and microchipped. I'm a big elephant person, rather than a little elephant person. Oh .... and no DE's (ie designer elephants) please. :D

Jeff -

Damn it, Steve .... I was gonna start on elephants tomorrow . Looks around for more elephant workshops to attend ...

IMO it is rude for anyone to feed someone else's dog without asking. Apart from anything else, the other person would not necessarily be aware of what you're training for (could be food refusal, for example) or whether your dog has food allergies or intolerences. Even at club, if I feel a food treat will help, I always ask the owner if it is ok for me to give it and if the dog has a "pass word" for eating.

Petal ... when you 'check in' at ADT for your "First Timer's" Session, leave your dog in the car, if you can, and let them know he's a rescue and you're not sure of his behaviour and suspect aggression issues. Ask them to inform the FT's Instructor, who can then work to make sure that you have the 'space' you require and the appropriate/safe equipment (they'll lend you things if necessary). All the dogs are spaced for safety anyway, but you might find some comfort in knowing the instructor is looking out and after you knowing what issue your dealing with. All the instructors at ADT have a formal background in dog psychology and I know, given your dog's issues, they will assign the most appropriate instructor to your assessment. The behaviourists at ADT (once you're a member) will be able to talk to you in even more depth about Ned's 'aggression' and put you and your dog on a behaviour modification program for you to follow over time. You've certainly taken the appropriate steps to begin with and I congratulate you for that and also for taking on a rescue dog .... good for you and your kind heart. I'm sure Ned is going to look back and thank his lucky stars for finding you. ETA: It could be your own tension resulting from your own uncertainty that's causing the behaviour ... but don't worry - there'll be people there at ADT who can coach you through that too. And don't worry that you don't have a 'feel' for this dog yet (as another poster put it - but I don't think meant harm by it). It's early days yet and this comes with a bit of time, during which you're both working out how to understand each other.

Hi .... I'm a trainer at ADT - I train at Berwick on Saturday mornings, Scoresby Sunday mornings and either Springvale or Boronia on Sunday afternoons .... but not Ascotvale. Check in with "Haven". I know she does Doncaster on Thursday nights, Boronia Sunday afternoons and, I think Heidelberg Sunday mornings, but I'm not sure about Ascotvale on Tuesday nights. Either way - welcome aboard, Donnalee! I know you will have fun and you'll get to meet lots of people and get to know the reg trainers there. Enjoy! PS Don't forget to take your dog's favourite motivator with you to training at every session.

Kitty - The instructor would definately want to know about this. The grounds where you train are hired by your obedience school. It is part of the agreement with the people that they hire from that the grounds will be kept clean ... especially of doggy doos. They are school grounds. Apart from other dog handlers not wanting to step in it, there are kids who use the school during the week. They deserve to not have to dodge animal excament. Your obedience school has a good reputation for looking after the grounds they use, so they would want to know if anyone is not doing the right thing and cleaning up after their animal. Please do have a quiet word with your instructor .. subtley pointing out the 'offender' - just so they know and can keep an eye out on her and make sure she's doing her part. If it makes you feel easier, let the instructor know that I said for you to tell them and that the reason you're doing so is that I mentioned the club might get into trouble from the people we hire the grounds from. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the instructor will probably make a general announcement to remind everyone this is their responsibility, re-explain why (to refresh everyone's memory) and then be able to catch the offender on an individual basis if she doesn't comply.

Ruffles & Kitty - I don't think you would be "dobbing" if you speak to the instructor. Just tell the instructor that you are having difficulty with this person, that you would prefer to avoid confrontation. If this occurs with me, I make a general announcement to the class to remind them to respect each others space etc. etc. I keep an eye out on the 'offender' and if I see a 're-offence' remind him/her of what she's doing. Given that I've just announced this to the whole class, it's then not so much singling any one person out.

Hopenfox I work this way too, with some dogs with these sorts of issues. It is an opportunity to teach them that you will return and nice things happen when they hold their sit/stay, (and they're then reinforced for the desired behaviour) rather than you only return when they drop, even if it is to correct the drop back to a sit/stay (where the 'trigger' to get you to return is the 'drop'). This method is particularly good where the dog is lacking confidence at the time.

Licking the lips can be a sign of uncertainty/uneasiness ... ????? Is it at all possible that she finds the ring atmosphere a bit overwhelming? It could be you being a bit anthropomorphic suggesting that her licking her lips is her sign to you of her knowing she's about to do the wrong thing. No offence intended by this, but have you thought about that? IE That you could be assuming a human interpretation for her doggy language to you, and putting your own values on it? If you are, then your clue to what's happening could well be hidden there.

Yes Myszka! All 3 days (Friday-Sunday). I didn't think I would be (didn't want to travel on my own - don't know Sydney and I have a tendancy to get lost ). But then a couple of colleagues said they were interested in going and we all went up together. Were you there, by chance? Hi Lablover! :rolleyes: New? Hhhhhmmm ... not so much "new", but more a difference in perspective at some of the stuff I did know but didn't use as much as I might. So, from that point of view, I did 'learn' from it. Can't say as I can see how his logic would work for EVERY dog, though. Hey - but it's about tools for the tool box, as they say. And there were some really good ideas I got out of it in relation to puppy training. Now I'm all ready for the K9/SAR Victorian workshop coming up sooooooon!

Good one, Myszka. :rolleyes: Also with you with your back towards the dog. Walking away from and back to your dog (with your back turned). (Use a mirror to help you see what the dog is doing if you don't have a helper). Pretend to talk on a mobile phone (that one OFTEN sees the dogs breaking). Also, proof the actually "sit" command. Can you give it with your back turned and your dog will comply? Can you give it with your face covered (make sure your command is still clear)? Only thing I see wrong with that picture is the dog pairing the witch's hat with not going into a drop. MIGHT be ok to simply give the dog a win and build on that, but wouldn't be the first option I'd try (IMO). However, whatever works ..... I think I'd prefer to retrace my earlier training steps, though, starting back with shorter distance/shorter time and building to shorter distance/longer time; then longer distance/shorter time; and building to longer distance/longer time.

Dr. Ian Dunbar's seminar (NSW and Melbourne) Some bulleted points on his views: You're right, Kelpie-i. He takes pups at 12 weeks of age. Agrees that socialisation of pups should start early (ie 8 weeks ... ). Agrees there are risks for disease, but these are so slight in comparison with the behavioural risks associated with an undersocialised dog, it isn't worth not socialising. Eg. Parvo .. can be trampled into the house from the soles of your shoes. Does suggest you leave your outdoor shoes outside pup's area. Parvo can be carried in the wind. (Eg. Dog poo dries, becomes powdery and molecules are carried in the wind). Reason for him not taking pups until 12 weeks is only a developmental one ... there are plenty of things that a puppy owner can be doing with their pup before they come to him. (Eg. Hand feeding, socialisation etc. etc.) Pups need to be taught to like food treats (if they don't already). Dog MUST enjoy food treats to train his way. Therefore, ALL food must be fed from the hand. First rule (under his regime) - throw away the dog bowl. Dogs learn fastest when "positive reinforcement" AND "positive punishment" is used. However, his "positive punishment" is use of voice tone. He doesn't think the 4 quadrants of dog training principals are clear - hence he sees the quadrant as only 2. IE +punishment and +reinforcement. I did understand what he was driving at, here, and I have previously pondered on the "fine line" between, say, Negative Reinforcement and Positive Punishment, when viewed from the dog's point of view. But to discuss the same would probably be the subject of another thread - and I'm not sure I'd be able to express myself particularly well in writing (although I'd give it a really good shot if need be. :rolleyes:) Because dogs learn faster using the combo of +reinforcement and +punishment, he has no room for "Clicker Training" techniques, which engage only +reinforcement. I definately agree with him there. Clicker training also doesn't comprise different tones that the voice can use to intone encouragement. Where a dog has already received/learnt value from engaging in undesirable behaviours (such as chasing live stock etc.) then to train the dog away from this, aversives would more than likely need to be introduced into training. Trains pups off leash - I like this idea too. Particularly because I see far too many people/handlers that have become leash dependant, rather than working their own body language and verbal skills to achieve results from their dog. Adolescent dogs which have not come up through his training regime, however, do need to be worked on lead. Although he doesn't talk in terms of the 4 quadrants, does agree that negative reinforcement has a huge impact on the dog. His concern is that handlers don't use it knowingly and with as deep an understanding of "the dog" as is necessary to avoid detrimental affect. These are some of the things off the top of my head, that were covered throughout the seminars. I'll add more as I think of them. No doubt, I'll need to refer to my scribbly, illegible notes to remind me.

Additional tips: 1. Ensure the dog's reinforcer for the sit/stay is much higher than the reinforcer for the down/stay. 2. In training, work your sit/stays for considerably longer times than is required in the ring.

Difficult to tell, Pampa, from the small amount we know here. I wonder if it stems from your boxer initially not knowing how to properly interact with/approach other dogs and this behaviour has become learnt (and exaggerated along the way)? What we're missing is a realllllly detailed history (including body language description of early day meetings with other dogs), as well as being able to observe the body language of your dog in the lead up to the 'meeting'. Have you tried 'breaking' the initial behaviour by throwing in 'sit' commands along the way to approach ..... would your boy listen? Or is he in a bit of a state by then? If you did this, and your boxer was up fairly close before 'greeting', would he present a bit calmer? IMO, I would not offer "re-assurance" for the behaviour being displayed - but that's easy for me to say as I'm not there, can't see the dog (therefore don't recognise any improvement on the boxer's 'normal' behaviour in these instances etc.). Just be careful about what you're reinforcing. That's where I'd rather seek a 'sit' - which breaks the attention and sometimes the 'tension'. Then offer the reassuring/encouraging 'speak'. (That way, you're reinforcing the sit behaviour and not accidently reinforcing the other 'over the top' behaviour.) Do this each time you recognise his behaviour as escalating beyond controlled calm ... but don't wait until the excitement level becomes impossible to compete with. This might mean you sit after each step. The other dog might be gone by then :rolleyes:, so it might help if you can ask other dog handlers for their help (and patience). Lord knows, that what I used to do. I used to feel guilty about taking up so much of their time, but generally they were very happy to help and, I think, felt quite good that they were chosen to assist. ETA: Working your dog into drive is a great way to get your dog closer to a 'stimulus' ... and then away again, if necessary, without the dog's focus being on the stimulus itself. Sure - you want the dog to orientate to the other dog, but working that drive maintains focus towards you. Check out the K9 Force threads on the subject of "drive" in the Training Forum. If you haven't already read it, you'll find some really helpful stuff in there that is worthwhile following and working with. And that counts for you, too, LuvMyBC.

I 100% agree with Greytmate's comments here. But then, KismetKat, you'd know that, because you've been involved with more than just one or two threads on this topic ... in fact, wasn't one of them started by you? Although IMO it's already been discussed, tried, hashed etc. and even though some might not be able to recognise the 'respect and responsibility' Greytmate is referring to, may I respectfully suggest that if the debate on parks is to continue, we do so by resurrecting one of the 'other' threads for which the topic was relevant, rather than to distort a really great thread about socialisation & neutralisation?

Hi Pampa. It's late, but I'll have a bash at offering an interpretation of "fear-aggression". It is an act initiated by the dog in an attempted maneovour to either avoid or control a situation of which it is uncertain/uncomfortable. I'm not sure, exactly, if that's what you were looking for by way of answer, but I will add that the greater percentage of aggression 'we' see out in the field (ie where the aggression is addressed to dogs/people where there is no social relationship) is "fear aggression". Even dogs exhibiting body language that would commonly dictate 'dominance' may actually exhibit that, because they're confident their aggressive tactics will achieve their goal (this is learnt over time, and is why it is most beneficial to prevent the behaviour from occurring, as part of the behavioural modification treatment), even though their fear of the situation has not ebbed. True dominance aggression is quite rare by comparison. Ummmmm..... is this the sort of answer you were looking for?

Sheesh, Pampa .... I returned hoping for fantastic new of your girl's miraculous recovery. Still - it is good that she doesn't seem to have worsened any, and that there's not as much bruising. I'll continue to wish strongly for her healing.

Dogbesotted - it amazes me how you seem to know how to look up this information to begin with. In otherwords, how you even think to know what "condition" to look for. I am in awe of your breadth of knowledge in relation to these things. Pampa .... I'll 'speak' to you on Monday. In the meantime, more warm feelings for some sign of recovery for your girl. Was thinking about her again earlier today.

Although I would have been interested in your response, K9 ... Unlike Dougie's, there's usually something from you that's informative and educational.

I understand the thyroid medications are generally successful? Glad there's been some good news for you, rather than the worse. for Ollie.

Pampa ... my heart is really going out to you and your girl.

Thanks Blacklabrador. Yes, "biotin" rings a bell. I know I've got the info .... and I've written on it before myself. Just drew a blank tonight. Pampa - to your lot's escapades ....

Pampa .... - thinking of you. Presume you had the bloods done today? When will you have the results?