Erny

Hi Dru. Hi Barb. :D Barb - thanks for the recount of your story. It does confirm what my chiro talked about. At the suggestion of my chiro, I have fasted Kal. She hasn't eaten since yesterday morning and I plan to give her an early dinner a bit later this afternoon. I had to train, today and to beat the heat I started at 6.15 am. I left Kal inside with the airconditioner going. Had a friend come around at about 10.30am to let her out for a toilet stop. Somewhere inbetween time, she's had a vomit. It looks mainly like water (which I assume she has consumed) ... can't see much of any bile. But I'm a bit worried, because the liquid content has a brownish reddish tinge ... not a lot of pigment colour, but I don't know if it's blood. I've soaked it up with absorbent paper and have enclosed it in a plastic bag for the Vet to look at if they need to. I will see how she goes with dinner. I figure that, if it is blood that I see, it's not a good sign. You know the part that makes me love her even more (if that's possible) and brings the tears to my eyes? ...... She went to lengths to make sure she vomited on one of the plastic mats I have - it's further down the other end of the hallway. She doesn't like to mess my carpet. Poor considerate darlin'.

Thanks, Dru. I asked my Vet about the vulva examination. He said he was speaking as a "Vet" and that I shouldn't do it .... my girl wouldn't like me for it. :D I said ok ... (I was relieved, but I'd do anything I had to, for her, if it were in my power.) Having swapped another couple of emails since my last post, my Vet has concurred that something seems amiss. He says it is possible that the vomiting and the then immediate cessation of urination are connected. Without drawing any conclusions, we have touched on the subject of tumour. However, the Vet said her symptoms are vague and he advised I continue to visually monitor her and inform him of changes/new symptoms, as well as keep check of her weight over the next few weeks and then inform him. I took Kal to see her chiropracter today. Although I definately suspected her back to be out (due to weakness in legs .... there are other symptoms of her apparent decline in wellbeing that I haven't mentioned in the OP because that wasn't the original purpose of the thread at the time), the chiro didn't find anything amiss - save that her shoulder/shoulder blade was a bit out. When I go to the Chiro, I never say anything - I don't give clues as to what she's doing (at least, not at the outset) and wait for him to ask me questions. He asked: Q. How's she been? A. Not good. Q. Has she had/got any urination issues? A. Yes. Q. Is she intolerant to exercise? A. Yes. Q. Does she feel the heat, even when you would think she shouldn't (ie it's cool)? A. Yes. Q. Does she have difficulty in digesting/absorbing fat? (Naturally, he can see her weight loss.) A. Yes. He said: "I would say tumour on the pancreas. At least ... something to do with the pancreas. Certainly, the problem lies in this area [at which time he indicated her middle section, from a bit further down the midpoint of her back, down to her rump]." I won't go through the rest of our conversation word for word, but we had discussions relating to the pancreas, adrenocortisone, adrenalin, hippicampus and hypothelamus. Sorry for the techno terms if you're not familiar - I have a vague knowledge of them because I studied them for the thesus I wrote as part of my NDTF behaviourist requirement (topic = aggression). Anyway, that doesn't matter, but I did ask what was it that made him believe pancreas/pancreas tumour. He said he didn't know - it's just something he felt (not literally). I pointed out that her pancreas function had recently been tested and came up as 'normal'. We discussed further and he told me there are SOME dogs that, for their bodies to function normally, require their pancreas to function higher. He feels she might be one of those dogs. Hence "normal" for her isn't good enough. We also discussed the possibility of Cushings Disease . I googled this, and a number of the symptoms fit - but it is one of those diseases that have symptoms which might actually be something else. I have emailed my Vet (sigh .... I hope he doesn't give up on me as being a 'neurotic mother') and have asked if the results of the recent tests he ran would negate Cushings Disease, or if it is worth pursuing on an investigational level. I guess I will need to wait until next Tuesday, as he only works on that day during the semester. I don't have a good feeling about this - I'm feeling there is something sinister going on. Whilst I hope I'm wrong, if it is there, I've got to know about it. I want to understand and be able to empathise with my dog, even if it's something I can't fix. Maybe it can be at least managed to give her quality lifestyle, even if not longevity. I need to know what pain she might be feeling, and what to expect and what I can do to help her as best as I am able .... down the track. I'm not morose about it. I'm being a realist. I'm not panicking or going over the top about it. But I'm worried. But I also know I'm doing what I can to get to the bottom of all of this. I'll keep trying. So - there's the most latest update. I hope there are some that find this of interest and that I'm not just droning on.

LL - :D

For those interested in the update (not that it gives a conclusive answer) ... Dr. Russell Mitten has responded to my email detailing the episode I related in my OP. He writes: "Kal's urine test on 10/01 was normal, no evidence of infection, blood or any abnormal cells. This makes an infection or tumour in the bladder or vagina very unlikely. The quantity of water that she drinks is also quite in order for her body weight, so no problems there. What you describe does sound like lower urinary tract or genital tract irritation. The "twitching" of the vulva is also to be expected when there is the sensation of irritation in the area. I inspected the vulva, and it looked quite normal externally, but of course I did not attempt an internal examination. Simply feeling inside with the finger can occasionally be useful, but more often one needs sedation and a speculum to examine this area adequately. The other useful way to look at the area is ultrasound. If there are more such episodes, that is the way we would usually approach investigation. The grass eating and subsequent vomiting is a dog's way of trying to deal with some type of abdominal discomfort. They certainly can go at it alarmingly at times. Isolated episodes are often hard to explain, so again, you will need to observe for further incidents. Let me know how things go, and also about her weight. Best wishes etc." I understand about grass eating. I emailed Russell back, this morning, explaining that I'm curious as to the apparent connection between the vomit and the urge to urinate, which stopped the precise moment she vomited. I wonder if Russell is suggesting I do the check of the vulva with my (gloved) finger? Wonder what I'd be looking for? Lumps? Bumps? Maybe I'd better go email him again ....

Eeeeewwww ... don't wish to start an argument, but assuming the temp is around the 40C mark as predicted, is it about the humans 'braving' the heat, or putting their dogs through it?

Whew, I thought maybe I wasnt invited :rolleyes: Haven - although I think it would be unneccessary, I'd smuggle you in ...... that is, assuming I will be invited ......

Maybe ppls are a bit slow due to the recent heat wave ... :rolleyes:

Panda - so glad your dog has returned to usual self. I'm also glad the kennels you went to have the integrety to go out to you to work through the pulling on the lead issue. Once they do (and I expect it will involve some 'how to' instruction for you ), you will probably find things starting to happen as you had previously expected. It is a matter of them having given the dog the 'buttons' and you working towards the knack of being able to 'push those buttons' properly. Good luck - I hope it all goes well for you and your dog. Please let us know how you get on after the kennel trainer has seen you, and after you've had the opportunity to practice the exercise.

I do agree to disagree, to an extent, Miranda. You could say the same thing about private dog trainers. I agree - there are some not so desireable boarding & training venues, just as there are some not so desireable private trainers - naturally, it's a matter of checking things out, including the credentials of the trainers, be they for private lesson purposes or be they for the boarding and training facilities. You will have already seen opinions being requested and given in relation to those dog training franchises you mentioned. That's another way of checking out some places too - ask for a number of people's opinions. It's great that you're enthusiastic and able to manage and train your own dog as you do - I agree that is the ultimate ideal for both dog and owner. But some people either aren't going to, or aren't in a position to, or aren't able to. So Boarding and Training is an option for them. Get a good reputable organisation and it can be added value to your dog's stay there to, as the training adds mental stimulation during the time that you might be away. The kennels where I train often have people boarding their dogs because they're going away, and requesting "maintenance training" sessions for their dog during that time. So not only do the dogs get their usual social play time away from the immediate kennel environment, they also get one-on-one attention from the trainer. The dogs love it. It is a matter of personal opinion, as you've expressed. There are others, however, that are in a different position and of a different view as a result.

Sorry Mel - on the 'concept of time' discussion, I was generalising. I certainly agree that dogs can benefit by being socialised/habituised to a kennel environment more gradually .... even starting with day care and increasing to o/night stay etc. etc. Sometimes, though, when a dog comes in (and provided it has the appropriate temperament to cope with kennel environments) it's better off for the longer period, rather than short stays. In short stays, the dog who is not yet 100% comfortable, goes home whilst still feeling less than 100% comfortable. A dog that stays in longer can work through that uneasiness (with the help of the kennel staff too), become comfortable for a while, and then leave. It's last memory of the kennels is then one of comfort, rather than the opposite. Naturally, everything depends on the individual dog. I can't recall the OP saying how old her dog is ... but if it's in the critical period (ie 8-16 weeks) it would not have been lawful for the kennels to have taken the pup for boarding OR boarding and training. ETA: At least, that's the law here in Victoria.

Hi Mel. From what I have read, dogs don't have the same concept of 'time' as we do. They certainly do not forget their owners and when they return home, they're going back to an environment to which they are familiar - so it doesn't take the same 'settling in' time as it does when they come to the kennels say, for the first time.

Henrynchlo - I expect this is not the case with you, however, sometimes obedience issues are a result of the owners NOT having the best relationship. So, in their case, the dogs are best not having them around. When the handover is conducted, apart from going through the private training lesson, we also discuss leadership at home and where necessary, give guidance as to what they need to do to establish it. Where a leadership imbalance has been a good part the cause of the issues for which these people have sought help, it often makes their transition from "not a leader" to "a leader" easier, if there's been a bit of a gap between the dog and owner. A little like wiping the slate clean - although it's never truley wiped totally clean , but it is a chance for the owners to start off the right way from the day they return home with their dogs. The dogs also have the obedience skills they didn't have before, which makes it a bit easier for the owners to work towards 'pushing the right buttons' - which also helps them in their quest for re-establishment of a more healthy heirarchy status. It is also terribly difficult to train a dog in the presence of the owner because the dog is often distracted by the owner's presence and the 'bond' they share. If the owner wants to be present, it would be better, IMO, to simply provide a private lesson, getting the owner to do the work under the trainer's instruction. So would I.

It depends on the level of training required (obviously, the higher the level, the longer is required). It also makes a big difference if the dog has no behaviour issues. For example, if the dog's timid, we have to work on raising it's confidence - lack of confidence inhibits training and skill performance, which means the training process is slower (and more laborious). Some dogs simply seem to take a bit longer than others. If the training kennels I work for aren't satisfied with the level of training achieved by the end of the prescribed training period, they will, with the owners' consent of course, keep the dog in a while longer - provided this is in the dog's best interest. This is done at the kennel's expense - not the owners'.

And you will have seen by my post that I've suggested I haven't known her experience to be the 'norm'. I am merely endeavouring to make it a bit clearer that one boarding & training kennel should not be the basis of all judgement and that, although you're in a different position and mind, there is a place for boarding and training for some people and their dogs. Thanks - this is something I already and clearly recognise. My post was only in response to your suggestion that you thought it would be cheaper to engage a private trainer than to place a dog in boarding & training. If you've been reading my posts in recent threads regarding some trainers, you'd see I agree with you here. And I guess I post because I am a trainer - both private and one engaged to train boarding dogs, and therefore feel I have the experience to recognise the pro's and cons of both sides - simply something I tried to balance out for the readers here.

I know, Anne - that's great. And it's also living in an ideal world to think that everyone wants or can go down that path. At least boarding and training offers an option when no other option is attractive or available to some dog owners. We have owners crying tears of joy (literally) when they see what their dogs are capable of. It tends to inspire them to pick up and carry on with the dog's training, where normally they wouldn't have. Not necessarily - I guess that depends on the quality of the private trainer. It takes much longer to teach a person to train their dog than it does for a trainer to train it him/herself. So, if you're working on a price according to time factor, it can work out cheaper to board and train them, and then go to training classes. But then, if you know or can engage a really cheap trainer ????

Although the kennels I train at have done this at the insistance of the dog's owners, we don't usually recommend it. It is more often very unsettling for the dog to have its owner visit part way through, only to leave, once again. Although it might sound like it, I'm not jumping to the defence of the kennels I work with - I don't need to. We have nothing to hide. We love the dogs and are proud of the very high results we achieve. I'm just a bit concerned that some of the statements being made here are being read by people otherwise not familiar with professional and reputable boarding and training kennels. I query your statement, Showdog - is it really "so many" ? (Not that I suggest only a couple is ok .... but how many is "so many"?)

Unlike Miranda, I don't think sending a dog to boarding and training is a "ridiculous" idea. Perhaps you don't realise, Miranda, that there are kennels who do provide the information and lesson to demonstrate and coach the owners to at least start them off in the right direction with their new trained dogs. The owners are also always told to call if there are any questions along the way. There are many people who simply can't handle their boistrous and sometimes over exciteable dogs sufficiently to get a handle on the beginnings of training. Many's a time that I have trained dogs at the kennels - where people are at their wits end, even to the point of suggesting this is their last hope - if they can't get things under control after the training they are seriously considering (or have decided to) put their dog to sleep, or surrender it. Or where people otherwise don't bother to take their dogs out, simply because they can't deal with the pulling. At the kennels where I train, we always conduct a "handover" - where we demonstrate what the dog is capable of, and then spend a private lesson with the owner on how to's and what to do's. The 3 and 5 week boarding and training packages includes membership to Australian Dog Training, so the owners can continue with the dog's training (moreover, receive more coaching for themselves, as the dogs end up going home knowing more than they). Panda - if anything, we find that the dogs, once returned from home, are a bit quiet compared to what the owners report as their usual selves. This often occurs whether the dogs are at kennels for boarding and training, or just boarding. This quietness generally lasts for only 24 - 48 hours ... I'm not sure why. We can only guess it is because of all the excitement at the kennels and then the sharp contrast of the quiet at home. I don't think I've heard of one that has exhibited anxiety as yours seems to be. Have you spoken to the trainer? Did the trainer demonstrate your dog's new found skills to you (while you were hiding away, unseen by the dog, somewhere)? What was the dog like with the trainer - was it confident and happy? What was the dog like within the kennels? - scared .. traumatised? - the kennel staff should be able to tell you this, if not also the trainer.

;) Aaaaaaahhhhhhgggg! Actually - that question has come up in one of the DOL threads recently .... someone said they thought he ... errrrmm, "she" was. But then wasn't certain. I can't help but call him a "he" Besides, how can you make the letters contained in "D.O.U.G.I.E" into anything that would give him a reason to use it as a DOL name? Doesn't Often Utter Good Inspirational Encouragement ????? Maybe ?????

:laugh:Good for you! I read somewhere that this behaviour can also be where the dog is simply satisfied and/or enjoyed the eating activity. Can't remember the exact wording (I'm sure it expressed it better than I have here! ) and I can't remember where I read it, so I can't attest to its accuracy or reliability. Just (IMO) was better to post as a possible indication of something wrong - and investigate it first, rather than on the assumption that all is well. Do check it with your Vet when you go there next ... but I agree that it could be just a grooming regime.

And assuming your dog enjoys being inside with you than outside without you, if he insists on getting up to things he shouldn't .... send him outside for a period. Be consistent. Let him know (praise and attention) when he's being good, and send him out when he's not.

This can often be a sign of gum disease (gingivitis). Are her gums inflamed (even if only just above her teeth)? Sometimes, after having eaten a bone, the gums can have been irritated - particularly if there already is gum disease present. If you're not sure, I'd recommend a Vet check. Perhaps her teeth need cleaning. My girl can't eat bones (long story ... won't go into it here) and is therefore prone to gingivitis. I brush her teeth (with proper dog paste and a finger brush) - every day if the gums are showing inflamation, or every other day when they've settled down.

If you the experience of getting up on counters is unpleasant enough to counteract the reward of vacuuming up a few crumbs or treats, it should work. I agree, with this, although if you're anything like me, my life with dogs prohibits the time required for perfect house keeping! If the situation is set up where the dog can make the decision of where its best advantage lies (ie NOT on the countertops) with AND without the human presence and with OR without food being present on the countertops, this would be the most ideal. If the message she perceives is VERY CLEAR, it shouldn't take too long before her behaviour diminishes.

No worries, RDR. I wasn't trying to make a point, by my post. I doubt you would've found it via the search engine .... I wasn't able to. The thread title doesn't reflect the actual topic, per sei, and none of the key words I put in worked. I also couldn't remember the name of Scat Mat at the time. I knew I'd posted there, though, so I searched through my old posts. Let us all know what you end up doing and what the outcome/s are.

How are you going with this one, Annaz? Managed to contact a professional and organise a consult? Just keeping in touch.

Does she only exhibit this behaviour when you're around? What if you're not? Here's a link to an earlier thread you might find interesting and helpful (it took me an age to find it, but I knew it was there!), as well as a link to "Scat Mat". Kitchen Bench Surfing SCAT MAT ETA: If you use the DOL search engine and search for "counter" and/or "kitchen bench" or the like, you should come up with some other threads where your current problem has been discussed also.