Kelpie-i

Helen, my intention was not to discredit those vet behaviourists with both years of practical and theory learning, but merely to pose the question on whether people would choose theory over practical. I too know 3 vet behaviourists who have many years experience in their field but provide the exact information to people that many behavioural trainers I also know do. The only difference in this case, is that vet behaviourists are able to prescribe drugs. So it intrigues me that people are prepared to spend 100's of $$ to see a vet behaviourist when they can get the same information, minus the drugs with some very good behavioural trainers for a lot less money. I would tend to agree with PF in that I would want to hear word of mouth recommendations, regardless of the letters at the end of the name.

Interesting question Cosmolo and one that I've thought about for a while. If I can also pose a further question...... Vet behaviourist = x years of theory learning Behavioural trainer = x years of practical learning Which would you choose??

I will sometimes throw the food, depending on what I'm doing. I'm teaching my boy leg weaves and found it useful to throw the food through my legs for him to get it. Once the beginnings of the behaviour was established I stopped throwing and started giving the treat from my hand. I found throwing the food on the ground initially helped establish the hand signal. Myszka, have you tried those onion chopping things, you know the cylindrical type with the knob at the top that you push down. It may chop the food up a little too small but I'm sure if you were careful you'd get some good size pieces.

Bugger, was about to report you to Hughley Wirthless!! :rolleyes: Edited coz I can't spell!

I MrsD, yep you can't go wrong with the $2 Devon roll....dogs love it, it is easy and there's plenty of it for the price :rolleyes:

Erny get that mind out of the gutter .......All's I'm implying is that men... well not all men, just my OH and gadgets should not be allowed in the same room together.

Rom, I didn't feel the stim until level 4 either when my OH tried it on me. I have a really funny story about the e-collar and my OH, but that's the subject of another thread.

My boy has just turned 17 months and is just starting to show the "bad boy" attitude...aaah fun and games. He's already had the snip though. As Jesomil said, it is up to you whether you give him the snip however whichever way you go, make sure you are 100% happy with your decision.

Cosmolo, it still is....especially with those closely affiliated with APDT and Delta. The other common buzz word now is "motivational" training which I only started noticing about a year after we started using it. Although I'm not sure what other schools consider motivational methods to be........we use it as a layman term for drive training. Note: I am definitely not saying that we were the pioneers of motivational training, only that I've noticed more and more people using this term of late.

Yes I most certainly think the trend is leaning towards "positive" training......"Positive reinforcement methods" seems to be the buzz word these days with many trainers/training organisations claiming this is the only method they use....as seen on their advertisements. I personally would like to see more "balanced" trainers but perhaps we'll just have to wait our turn for that Sorry...OT!!

Red Mal, I think also the reason you see many trainers on TV using this technique is because flooding is quick therefore making it easier to show results on TV, whereas desensitisation is slow and can take many weeks/months therefore does not make good TV as you cannot show the results in a half hour program. I wouldn't say that flooding is the new trend as it has been around for ages. The trend is certainly shifting towards "positive" style training and due to this, IMO, desensitisation is the more preferred method. The Spotted Devil, unfortunately the alpha role is very much a primitive technique and one that can cause much angst to the dog, however some people still use it with some success. Personally, it is not one of my favourites! This is my concern when showing these sorts of methods on TV and yes, CM uses a technique similar to the alpha roll - he mainly lies the dog down on its side and holds it there until it "surrenders". I think Cosmolo mentioned an episode where he was bitten 3 times by a dog which proves just how dangerous this technique can be....and he's an expert....imagine the average Joe applying this!! I still do enjoy watching his program, however, as he certainly provides useful information, I especially like his "pack therapy" which is sensational. I would love to own as many dogs as he does and apply this type of therapy to dog-aggressive dogs. I did read an interesting article about a "cat fight" going on between CM and Ian Dunbar, not sure who wrote the article but was very interesting. Here's the Link to the article.

At 5 months of age, your dog's personality has pretty much developed. There are three main things you must seriously consider in order for some changes to occur: 1. Strong leadership skills!!!! 2. Obedience training which includes socialisation. 3. Lots of regular exercise (not just a slow walk in the park but the sort of exercise that leaves her panting!!) Make no mistake, your dog's intentions were serious and now that she's had a taste, she may well choose this line of action again. I would enlist the help of a professional before I let her off lead to romp with other dogs.

He has that effect!! Yes correct Erny and this is where judging the correct critical distances come into play. The emotion should be one of very slight uneasiness without it being enough to elicit even a mild reaction. Cosmolo, I must admit that I'm a little confused as to what you ask??? Correct me but are you saying that your girl underwent some unintentional mild flooding but was removed too early for it to take effect and therefore is still showing (or has an increase in) fearful behaviour around men??

C&Z, I recommend Eagle Pack. It doesn't contain fillers and by-products like the others and it actually contains less sodium than other leading super premiums like IAMs and Euk (which both come from the same manufacturer mind you). You'll find your dog will drink less water due to the lower sodium content. I changed all of my 4 dogs over to EP about 6 months ago, one is a 14 yo GSD, and I cannot believe the difference in all of them. Of course, EP is not their main diet, they are all fed fresh meat and vegies etc and are given meaty bones once a week. If you check out the website (which I believe has already been given), you'll find a list of stockists in your area. Well worth the trouble!! Give Supercoat and any supermarket brand a very wide berth!!

If I can hop in and answser this Cosmolo, this is a mild form of flooding. When we desensitise, we never allow the dog to come uncomfortably close to the object of its fear.

Here is a good explanation of flooding taken from the book "Aggression in dogs" by Brenda Aloff. "Flooding is used primarily to reduce fearful behaviour. Whereas desensitisation requires that the dog is NOT exposed to intense versions of the the fear-producing stimuls, flooding requires the opposite. When you use flooding to modify behaviour, the objective is to elicit the fearful behaviour and then wait for the dog to "stop responding" to the fear-inducing stimulus. Flooding is a very tricky technique to use properly and can do damage to the dog's psyche if not executed properly." The flooding experience has to be repeated a few times to have the lasting effect and works best for fears that are not too intense. However my belief is that if you're not an expert on it and if the fear is extremely intense, don't flood!

;) Now, now ladies.....you'll all just have to wait your turn....I have ticket no. 00001 !!! I enjoy watching how he works and especially how he deals with owners. Wonderful stuff! Apparently he does not have any formal qualifications in dog behaviour/psychology but he most certainly knows his stuff and makes things look rather easy - which can sometimes be a worry as I feel some very novice handlers will want to try his techniques and may end up bitten. .......but he can park his shoes under my bed...!!

KitKat, I can't believe you're trying to achieve the same thing I am. I too went out and bought a cheap pair of roller blades last week and as soon as I master staying upright, I plan on taking my dogs with me. I watch Cesar Milan do it with about 10 dogs and it looks like fun!! Hey, maybe we can compare injuries

Joypod, that seems like a hell of a lot to learn in such a short period of time. 4 weeks of training is merely the "tip of the iceberg" and there is absolutely no way your pup (or even you) will master all of those things in 4 weeks. Why don't you check out the Four Paws link below? Your puppy remains in the level until he/she is 6 months old therefore you and your pup will learn heaps during that time - you will also find that you get more "bang for your buck!" Keilor Park is approx 15 mins from Sunshine. This statement is not true at all. There are many Puppy kinder courses run by behaviour specialists.

PF, I couldn't agree more.

Ashan sorry to hear about your situation but you must really get your pup into some form of socialisation asap! Please ensure that whoever you choose to go with, that they are extremely well versed in dog behaviour and psychology and will know exactly what to do with your pup now that he has reacted towards other dogs. The process should be now be one of desensitisation and regaining his confidence around the other dogs using only positive techniques. I wish vet nurses would stick to what they know best and leave the dog training to the dog trainers.

I have about 6 of the darned things (my OH works as a sales rep in the pet supply industry) and have absolutely no idea how to use one. Never attempted to use one either. PF, would you apply the same principle when teaching a recall but just add the whistle instead of the verbal cue??

Aaah, the joys of multi-dog households. I have 4 dogs, all of varying ages and whilst the 14YO GSD is the general alpha of the dog pack, I won't/don't allow any of the dogs to dominate each other. Occassionally they may squabble over resources but these are very minor and short lived. If the squabble lasts longer than a few seconds then each of the dog involved is told off - there is no favouratism! Has there been any changes lately ie. new/visiting dog, new baby, change of routine etc? Sometimes, life changes can upset the balance which may cause frustration/upset in some dogs. You will find that it is normally the beta ranks that fight amongst each other. The best weapon for this situation is to boost your leadership with each of your dogs, especially the fighting two and do not allow any of them to dominate one another EVER - this must be rule no. 1! If the dogs are clear on who is boss, then the fighting will stop. Rule 2: Try to refrain from treating any dog as "higher" rank than the other. The old belief about feeding the alpha dog first etc is unproven and causes confusion whenever there is a shift in rank which occurs numerous times throughout the day and is dependant upon resources. Best to treat all dogs as equal - remember you are leader - not the dogs- you pat/feed who you wish to pat/feed first etc - the rest must quietly wait their turn.

Koolietas, instinct and workability are two different things. All herding breeds, whether from show or work line show instinct, albeit to differing degrees but whether the dog has solid working ability and is mentally strong enough to take some knocks is another matter. Just curious, where there any young lambs around? Ewes will sometimes become testy if they've just been in lamb. This is entirely up to you as both options could work for you. However as Jesomil stated, sheep can usually pick the weak dog and will usually give it curry, so it is best work with calmer sheep.

Koolietas, were the sheep "dogged" sheep? Was anybody else with you ie. trainer etc when this occurred? Whilst shelties were originally bred to herd, they have lost a lot of their instinct (and I would dare say "hardness") due to the watering down process of breeding for conformation. I would give your dog a break from sheep for a while and then re-introduce with some soft and fairly dogged sheep who will provide him with plenty of wins and a more positive outcome.