Kelpie-i

LL, some dogs do not see toys as rewards, this may be due to the fact that a) they have continous access to toys and lose interest b) the owners have never played with them using toys. In a class situation, you don't have the time nor the resources to tether dogs to build their drive and some owners do not have the time nor the expertise to do this at home on their own. In the case that the dog is not toy crazy, you would use food, held in the palm of your hand which is turned into a "toy" so to speak. The dog "chases" the hand with the food in it, bringing out the prey drive in him as he wants to get to the food. You can then hold a small toy in the same hand with the food and the dog is rewarded for interest in the toy by getting food the food reward. This method doesn't work for all may I add. As for teaching drive training to a class situation, it's relatively easy.

I'll have yours then :drunk:

Slim1, yes, this simple method is used to bring out the drive and then to control it by voice command. Aaah KC, you'll just have to wait and see.... There are variations in training in drive, remembering that the initial exercises must be taught first. When drive training, we mainly use luring whilst in drive, but there are certainly other methods we use as well. Food can certainly be turned into a prey item, so you don't necessarily need a toy if your don't isn't toy crazy, but to have both is a bonus!

I think I may take you up on that advice HR - I particularly like the part about the red.

Oh my HR, this sounds nasty. Anne, I still stand by my statement on all accounts. "A dog only pulls because the owner has allowed it to!" Please prove otherwise.

Anne, with all due respect, you cannot expect all the trainers on this board to flash their credentials each time someone asks. I, myself, based my statements on both witnessing the use of and using the halter on my own dogs, hence why I made my initial comments about the tool. My statements were both as a user and a professional. We have no doubt whatsoever that K9's instructions assisted you with your problem and for that you hold high respect for him. However, please don't assume that just because other trainers have not thrown training suggestions your way that they are any less qualified in assisting with a problem such as this. It's a shame that the training clubs you attended were not to your liking. I agree that there are some which leave much to be desired, however there are some very good training establishments that you have obviously missed. Not all training establishments are the same.

Sidoney I think what Anne was after was some dog training tips. Unfortunately I don't think this thread is about that. It was merely a discussion on head halters and each person's opinion on them. I think I speak for some others when I say that we don't need to prove ourselves and our experiences, we merely made statements on our beliefs, experiences and personal opinions on the tool. It was never intended as a training tip thread. I agree, however what we are witnessing here is a clash of ideas and beliefs between dog trainers and general dog owners.

HR, He wouldn't give his trade secrets out over the net!!! Totally agree, sometimes I think he gives too much away, but that's just my opinion. ;)

Erny, Well said! Anne, if this trainer of yours is as good as you say, then I'm sure you have some extremely well behaved dogs. ;)

Tess32 I don't think you understand what I am getting at.... Your example above leads me into a good argument for my statement.... The same people who walk their dog nicely up the street are the same people who have always allowed their dog to pull when it saw another dog coming. Whilst they may have succeeded in achieving loose lead walking when there have been no distractions around, they have failed to teach their dog that this same behaviour is required upon seeing another dog. Consistency is the key to training a dog....its either "always" or "never"....no in betweens This is the point I was trying to make.

Yep!

Erny, I would have allowed you to pick on my spelling mistake!!!!

Kavik, isn't it sad that some clubs and/or trainers put the blinkers on to other training aids all in the name of Purely Positive. Infact, the head halter in an aversive tool......nothing positive about that. I too way 43kg (or actually 45kg ) and own a large dog who had pulling issues. Many many moons ago, I tried a halter on him and he just sat and wouldn't move. When he did move, he spent the entire time rubbing his head on the concrete trying to take it off. Finally, he would run away whenever I took it out. I ended up taking him to training and was advised to use a prong collar. Best thing I could have done. He was happy to train, walk and just generally have it on. Of course, prong collars are now illegal in Victoria and "Purely Positive" is the "In Buzz" word so I think the Head Halter people must be making a killing.

Tess32 Unfortunately, not "every now and again" but "always". HG Yes, totally agree that this would be the only good thing about a head halter.

K9, there is another method called the "Thunder Bolt" which doesn't require a check, martingale, prong etc. It works with just a flat collar. Wonderful technique, does not hurt or harm the dog in any way and one that I use on stubborn dogs.

Ann, I would say that the reason one of your dogs continued to pull and the others didn't was probably b/c that particular dog was more determined and head strong than the others or perhaps your training method did not suit that dog and clearly wasn't working. If you have other justifiable reasons why your dog continued to pull, I'd lke to hear them. Dogs DO pull because the owners LET them and this is a fact. I see many little puppies walking their owners every week which, if not rectified at any early age, can turn out to be 40kg worth of pull once the dog grows up in some cases. As I previously stated, the halter worked for you as it certainly does others, but it is not my preferred tool and is certainly not 100% safe. Tess32 Quite correct. Whilst advice over the net for simple things like puppy housetraining etc is readily given, trainers are somewhat reluctant provide advice/techniques over the net for more serious problems for obvious reasons. Anne I would have to disagree with your statement Some advice can actually be harmful to your dog especially if the advice given was incorrect for that problem. People who post on forums for advice never give you the full story of the problem they only tell you the problem. Ie. my dog jumps on people continuously - how do I make it stop? What they fail to say is that they have 3 children all under the age of 10 who squeel, flap their arms and run whenever the dog jumps, further, they fail to tell you that their guests also pat, praise and talk to the dog whilst it is jumping whenever they come to visit. So which part of this problem scenario truly needs attention, the dog or the owners? You can see now how incorrect advice ie. give the dog a correction, throw a chain etc is not getting to the cause but rather the symptom of the behaviour. This is why most trainers will not provide advice over the net.

Hi Rusky, smartest thing I've heard all day!

Anne, if you'd read my post properly, I did approach and speak to him about his handling. I advised him of the rights and wrongs. I just didn't go into detail of what I said to him since I didn't want to type up an essay. He chose to ignore my recommendations and by force of habit, went back to doing what he originally did. I also handed him a dog obedience school brochue and strongly suggested he look into it. Uh ha! This is what is being stated in the posts. It is a quick fix which may or may not work for all dogs. In your case it did. What sort of collar did your private trainer use and what was the method employed?

NEWS JUST IN.... This morning we were invited to our local council's microchipping day to assist. One gentleman with his long-haired GSD was standing in line - his dog was wearing a halter. The GSD was doing his usual Shepherd sookie noises and this guy was tugging at the head halti like there was no tomorrow and yelling at the dog to shut up. With each tug (and he wasn't a slender fellow either), his dog's head was forced into very uncomfortable positions and the dog yelped a couple of times. After about 3 goes, I'd had enough of watching and went over to him and advised him of what he was doing etc etc etc. I ended up taking the dog off him whilst he filled out his paperwork and played with the dog for a while....he was such a sweetie, and gave him back to the owner. As soon as I handed him back, the dog starts to sook again and guess what the owner goes and does all over again...... Yes I realise that it's not the tool but rather the human, but in my opinion a correction chain would have been alot kinder on this dog than constant jerking of his head.

CF, the only downside to getting a pound dog is that most of the time you don't know the history of the dog which can sometimes make it hard to figure out what exacty went on. But the best thing to do is work with the type of dog he is. Erny's suggestion of feeding part of daily food taking as a "treat" for doing something for you is the best suggestion. Most sight hounds are food addicts. You may even purposely feed him only half a ration and then use the other half for "training". Some dogs are just not "cuddly" type dogs. They couldn't care less if they were being patted or not. Most of the dogs I have met like this are either very busy minded, others due to bad experiences and the rest, well, it's just in their nature.

In an ideal world, we would all have opportunities of advising buyers about potential risks associated with all equipment, but as SR puts it, these items are readily available at all pets stores, internet etc and people buy them thinking they are 100% safe. However SP, I understand what you mean. The same would go for all types of collars, leads etc. SR, no harm....it's a discussion right??? I detest correction chains at the best of times and it makes me cringe when I see them hanging up in the supermarket isle next to the puppy food. Any tool can be dangerous but unfortunately, the head halter "looks" safe and people are told they are "totally safe" by some trainers which can mislead people into thinking that they cannot do any harm to the dog. All it takes is for the dog to see something it wants to chase, fly on its gut instinct and wham! Having said all that, I have recommended head halters to those I felt would benefit from them so I don't rule them out, but I do caution people about the possible dangers of them as I do all other equipment. I suppose I don't want to paint a pretty picture about something that could be harmfull if not used correctly.

Great thread!! Did anybody mention umbrellas, plastic bags and mirrors???

Agree!! I always say the only reason a dog pulls is because the owners have let it! SP: true, there really isn't a totally safe tool, but I don't consider one that could possibly (and easily) snap a neck to be more safe than a collar. Many people believe the head halters to be "safe".

I'm still not convinced it can stop a chronic puller or are safe for that matter. I have witnessed on many ocassions large dogs with head halters that continue to pull and the owners then tugging them back resulting in the dog's neck being literally whipped back. It looked far too dangerous for my likings. I've also seen dogs jump leaps with halters on....half of their body going one way and head going another. NECK CRACK!!! They certainly work for some dogs but I am not convinced they are safe.

HI CF I'm going to have to agree with Lablover on this one. That particular mixture of breeds are and will always will be extremely difficult to achieve attention and focus from. He is a scent hound (on both sides) which means that his breeding and drives will point his nose to the ground. Unless you can provide him with a reward which will outweigh the enjoyment he gets from scaling the ground for interesting smells then you may be in for an uphill battle. Most certainly your leadership skills can be stepped up in he must work to earn anything from now on, but through experience with these breeds, he will not do too much for you unless you have a tasty bit of morsel in your hands as a bribe/reward. So best to reserve all food treats for when you want him to do something for you. And be consistent!