kelpiechick

You absolutely need to watch the dvd. The method is also outlined step by step in Clean Run May 2008, but the dvd makes these instructions a little clearer. If at all possible I would recommend getting a back copy of the magazine if you don't have it and using both. BTW, verbal cue is recommended when you are happy with the pounce into the box. I have now (attempted) to teach the method to 2 of my dogs. It was an absolute breeze with my younger kelpie - and I hesitated because he is a tall, long striding 600 dog and I never thought he would be able to handle the compression, but he did so with ease once he got the hang of the groundwork. (Which did take him quite a few months as I was careful not to move on until I was really happy with it) So far in competition he has missed an A Frame twice, both times because of the striding on his entry. It is still in effect a stride regulation method and the downside relies very much on the striding being correct on the upside (eg: 2 hits up, 2 hits down) If I don't get the 2 hits going up then I find it effects where he hits coming down which may take him over the colour (although very rarely and I am very happy with the method with him) I am currently retraining my young BC from a stopped contact and have had a lot more problems with the method (and am still pulling my hair out currently, LOL) Her groundwork was wonderful, way better than my kelpie, and I had her to the point where she could bounce into the box from just about anywhere, and with me doing any distraction when running that I could possibly think of. Problem came when it was ready to go onto A Frame. I actually started with the A Frame spread out on ground under the grid and as soon as she felt board, her 'bouncing' footwork disappeared and she went back to running along the grid, which would pretty much resemble what she was doing before, with the stop on the end. (Similar footwork but no stop) Put it on lowered AF to see if it made any difference but it didn't. After reviewing as much footage of the method on You Tube that I could find, I decided to go with it anyway, so her criteria is to hit inside the box with front paw and then to continue on running through it. We are almost on full height AFrame but I am not really happy with it and kind of feel stuck with whether I continue or not. She is way too creepy coming down the downside for my liking (although she is still pretty fast and is averaging 1.2 seconds when I time it) She also seems to be reacting to my movement a lot more than she was with 2on 2off and if I run full steam ahead (and I mean really run) then she usually jumps over the box - performed with me not moving at all she is 100% accurate) I have now gone back to just walking or jogging to proof that first. As it has become a 'mismashed' method now, I am also concerned that the criteria of the box is not really clear for her, so have some decisions to make over the next few weeks. So my experiences would be that a lot of it depends on what footwork is 'natural' for your dog - the kelpie bounces a lot and comes up stairs that way, so I think for him the method was a lot more natural and therefore presented few difficulties. BC's creepy footwork is a lot more ingrained and I don't think I can break it - so I need to work with what is more natural for her and the method is not as successful. Sorry this is so long and hope it helps.

Many thanks to those who PM'd me recommendations. Have passed along the information today so hopefully she will act on these.

A work colleague has recently lost her cav to a heart condition (although I believe the dog was quite advanced in age) and was thinking about taking a puppy from what sounds to me like a puppy farm. Luckily she asked me first. Managed to talk her into looking at a registered breeder but I know nothing about cavs and don't really know who to recommend. Any suggetions from those in the know ? She is looking at pet only (dog will have a very loving home) and is in Vic. although she would be willing to look clost to Vic. border as well. I have told her to look at breeder pages here, but think she would like a personal recommendation if at all possible.

The last time I read something about it was that it would be made available if time permitted - so now that I know it will definitely be made available I will pass that info. on to all who are going from Vic. (probably not me though btw, so I haven't followed the posts hanging off every word if it was confirmed that it would be definitely be there before) I have great respect for the committee from every state when it is their turn to organise such a big event - it has been done lots of times before and very successfully- also probably for little acknowledgement, but I don't ever remember so many opinions about a related issue running so high for some reason but I guess that's the risk you take by introducing equipment that appears to have some 'controversy' associated with it for all the reasons that others have put forward. (Whether they are valid or not - Personally I'm not offering any opinion either way as I won't be there to use it) And I think it's great that so many people have been able to jump in and say that their dog used it without problem and are rushing to pass that on ..... but you are all lucky to have been in the position where it is available in your state and have had experience with it well before Nats. Hindsight is a wonderful thing to have. Put yourself in the place of someone who might be travelling the whole way across the country, may have a dog that is a bit sensitive to such things (not to mention copping it for the first time in the highly charged atmosphere of a National competition) and then finds out on the day before competition that despite all their conditioning, their dog still has an issue with it. I respect their right to feel the way they do and be allowed to voice their opinion (without having people jump down their throats) just as much as the organisers' right to use it.

I tried my best to ignore this but I have to comment: I am getting a little sick of people believing that we are spending a lot of our own money to improve our sport in an attempt to be unfair to other competitors. Now I'm confused. So you are not referring to all the criticism that has recently come via agility aust. list mainly from 'out of staters'? Out of staters now have nothing to do with this ? So the criticism you are getting a little sick of has come from local NSW competitors ? Is that right ? It's terrific that those attending this Armidale trial and several others are getting a chance to try their dogs on it before Nats as everyone keeps pointing out. But I have recently read a lot of criticism that had nothing to do with this particualr trial and everything to do with Nationals and I'm betting that most other people reading this thread have interpreted it the same way that Jess did. BTW -now that we have brought up Nats : Will the same courtesy be extended to 'out of staters' attending Nats ? I am assuming in order to create this level playing field that I keep hearing about it will be set up on the Tuesday before Nats starts and all 'out of staters' will be allotted a time to have a go. Don't get me wrong, I think it's an excellent piece of technology and will benefit agility in the long run, but I totally understand where many 'out of staters' are coming from with it being introduced at a National competition - especially when its use won't constitue a level playing field either with some heights having to use it and some not, depending on the whim of each individual judge. I believe a SA judge had an excellent solution to this over the weekend and would hope that maybe some others would follow his example. Apologies for hijacking an 'Armidale' thread :) Sheena, would love to know how your dog goes with it after you get to give it a try.

Probably best to determine what the judges in your state actually do. I trialled in SA once last year and I'm pretty sure with the two SA judges I ran under it was the same as Vic - and this was after the new rule introduction. In Vic. most judges will still ask you 'are you ready?' After you indicate you are, you cannot touch your dog in any manner. Even the handful who will just say 'go when you're ready' will still wait until you have set your dog up and have hands off before saying this. The judge still has to verbally indicate to you that you can go, so there has to be some form of 'conversation' even if it's one sided.

Wouldn't you still need the cargo barrier though ? I had both on my old car - cargo barrier to partition off the back of the car from the back seat area and then the puppy bars on the back. Loved them when trialling as you could leave the back of the car open and still lock the gates. Cost depends on what you actually have done - just single door, double doors, divider down middle, false floor, etc. Only reason I haven't had them put in current car is that I am not planning on keeping it for a long period of time and my old ones don't fit. Pretty pricey, but worth it IMO.

Not doing Bairnsdale - good luck to you, this weekend isn't it ? I might take a leisurely drive down to Sale in the afternoon so I don't have to get up at stupid o'clock and just do a couple of jumping runs. Agility is out for me with the BC at the moment as some dumb bunny decided to retrain her A Frame contact right at the beginning of trialling season .... oops, that'd be me :laugh:

Wow - I am so impressed that you can make a comeback after such a long time away. Fantastic effort. You both did great and she looks as if she is really enjoying herself. Definitely you I can remember, your girl was in Novice with my older kelpie when he first started out. He is also 9 now (where did the time go, seems like yesterday) and is 'winding down' with the occasional run in Masters only - not last night though, too hot for me with such a long drive to KCC Park. (Only reason he is not out there all the time is that I am running 3 dogs and focussing more on the younger one, and hoping that by cutting his number of runs he can still continue for quite some time) Good Luck with it - more plans for more runs ?? My young BC is in Excellent Jumping so might see you around the rings somewhere. :)

Hmmmmmmm...........OT, sorry, but I think you've just identified a hole in my training. Love it ! I'm just an anal freak about it - must be the school teacher in me. Would probably be better if I actually spent more time actually training to fix my holes,rather than writing about them .... but if anyone wants a 'plan of action' written or some goals set then I'm your gal ! PME - when you get frustrated......... step away from the BC ! She is very tuned into you and will pick up on any little nuance, believe me. There are some evenings when I just don't train as I know I am not in the state of mind that I need to be in. And record keeping will also help you identify any patterns there might be in this area too, it can be surprising. Even though I'm not instructing your class at the moment, I am happy for you to come and talk to me either before or after class any time if you want to, and we can come up with some ideas to help. I know your current instructor won't mind. :) And we all need help seeing the forest through the trees at times.

The other thing I would also recommend is going back to your record keeping. Often you can find a 'pattern' here of when things start to slide, not just by looking at your recorded success percentage, but also from the comments that you made regarding each session. This is why we encourage you guys to do it in the first place as it can be very useful.

Would it not be a good idea to actually ask one of your instructors for help, rather than try a public forum where people do not have first hand evidence of what your dog is doing without you adding video ? :) I believe there is also a club Yahoo list for asking this sort of question. It's good that you are asking in 'a lot of places' but you seem to have left out the 'obvious' ones for some reason. I would recommend going back to the handouts you were given when you first started on this method (last year's class) and make sure that you haven't moved on from each stage before reaching appropriate level of accuracy. These should explain what you need to do at each stage - especially in regard to the difficulty of entries that you need to achieve with 2 poles before moving on. For some reason, most people don't seem to take too much notice of this and move on way too soon, thinking they won't ever need those type of entries. Then they get 'stuck' because any holes in the dog's understanding will certainly begin to show up before too long, in fact it is the more difficult entries that are usually the starting point for working 2 sets of poles, where you have to stand between the 2 sets and send back to the entry first. If you are trying to run down the entire set of 2 poles with such a gap between them you will most likely cue your dog in to your movement of accelerating forward only, which you want to avoid. And unfortunately Jess is right - you absolutely will have to get out into another environment to test understanding and should have already done so before with just 2 poles. Are you still a member of an obedience club ? Maybe you could take your poles there and set up. What about booking the grassed area at Kepala (around $5 from memory) and setting up there ? Or maybe organising a private lesson with someone ? There are other alternatives besides a public park, you just have to think outside the square a little bit. Don't be afraid to take a step back if you need to either.

In agility training the thrown toy is generally used to reward (and create) very specific behaviours, such as head lowered driving down reward line for 2X2's. You can bet your $5000 that every dog you watched has a solid tug that is used before dog trains to get them aroused and to reward most other exercises. No way those dogs got to be how they are with a thrown toy alone. I agree that for some of us who haven't got a dog with a passion for tug (me too with one of my dogs) you have to be creative and use other reinforcements while you work on tugging away from the context of agility, (and don't obsess over it) but if you asked any serious agility competitor to rank their 'holy grail/wishlist' of reinforcements they had at their disposal, I doubt you would find many (if any) who wouldn't list tugging at the top.

Hi Megan, I totally get how frustrating this must be. I am working with a student at one of the clubs where I instruct atm who has suddenly developed similar issues (dog was fine until getting up to Masters Jumping, which is a whole other issue in itself) and have been through it to a lesser extent with one of my kelpies after he had a year off following an injury. It's so hard when we love the game so much and they don't want to play with the same enthusiasm. I agree with CFS that I would take some time away from club - or even come along to training but not actually train and try to recreate some 'excitement' with the venue by doing other things. Remember you can also keep working on your own 'training' by working on your running and footwork without your dog - as you would have seen at GD seminar. A couple of other things I would recommend. There is a terrific DVD called 'The Poisoned Cue' by Jesus Rosales-Ruiz which is part of 'The Click that Teaches' series. It's actually aimed at horse trainers but the concepts are very relevant to dogs and they use dogs to demonstrate. It won't give you help with your issue but will give you insight into why issues sometimes develop to begin with, namely because we 'poison' a particular behaviour and even the word associated with cueing that behaviour without realising that we are doing it. And it definitely sounds to me as if your startline behaviour or even actually taking a jump might fit into this category. I would spend the next few weeks working on building that Reinforcement Zone up again. Play games (doesn't have to be with a toy), run with him, let him chase you, teach tricks, lots and lots of shaping exercises where he gets the opportunity to get a ton of rewards (have a look at any of the Silvia Trkman DVD's and watch her position and rate of reinforcement) Try crate games to begin to fix your startline issues. A lot of the Control Unleashed games are good too. I would also use a video to do a couple of startlines on the flat (no equipment in sight) and actually watch your body language and his - sometimes we are cueing things that we don't even realise we are doing and video is a great tool for picking this up. Watch carefully how you bring him up to the line, sit him up, walk away and if there is any sign of 'shut down' see if you can pinpoint the place where it is occurring, this might give you some more information to work with. The issue might have nothing to do with your startline and might totally be related to the jumps but it's easy for the 2 to get linked together without realising. Sometimes it's even valuable to be aware of what you do from the moment you take your dog out of the car to the moment you get into the ring.... it's very easy to disconnect with a dog that's not totally driven and not even realise you are doing it, probably easy with a driven dog too in some ways. It might also be helpful to develop a reinforcement list. Susan Garrett talks about this in one of her books (most likely 'Ruff Love') and I think there is something on her website about it too. If you haven't done it before, it's basically just columns with headings for how much value dog has for particular reinforcements (Crazy About, Likes, Indifferent, Dislikes, etc.) and then you list every single thing you can think of, no matter how silly. Idea is to work with items from 'Crazy' column to reward if you can, but bearing in mind that if there are items here that don't put you in the picture (like chasing sheep along the fence or running with other dogs) and items much lower down that would be better (like tugging) then you work on changing the value but away from the agility context. If you can't find this, PM me as I have a sheet that I made for myself when training and review it every 6 months or so. (Actually been interesting to see the changes in my BC compared to the first one I did at 3 months old) Are there any instructors at your club that might be willing to help you develop an action plan to deal with these issues or maybe do private lessons ? That might help as well as they know your dog and you better than we do over the internet and might already have some insight into why this has happened. I hope at least some of this has been helpful and that you find the answers you need. It most likely will take a lot of 'trial and error' along the way.

I think this is so true. I was just saying something very similar to someone the other day. I see a lot of late cues & wide turns, but lately assume its the execution rather than the system. I don't use the GD system, I precue , but do have a question... The precue allows me to get ahead if i need to when executing a FC which means I can accelerate through it while still changing sides. Would this only be handled a a rear in the GD system? I can probably find video somewhere to illustrate if this doesn't make sense... Hi Vickie, pretty sure I know what you mean - will try and answer and hopefully I get it right. (Any other Derrett devotee can correct me if I am wrong I am sure.) System uses 3 cues for front crosses - first is handler starts to decelerate as they come up to positional cue, this means dog should start to collect. So as TSD mentioned it is vital in the system to have good independent commitment to 180's, 270's etc. so you can get to where you need to be in time to actually show your deceleration cue to the dog. You need to stay ahead for this and if you can't get far enough ahead at a particular point , then yep, you need to use a rear cross. 2nd cue after the decel is being in positional cue (very close to the upright where the turn will take place) and then 3rd cue is the actual arm change. What most of us were criticised for (and rightly so) was lumping all these cues together and mainly relying on just the arm change, creating some wide turns. In regard to accelerating through the actual turn, would depend on where you were going next - if you were using acceleration to take you to next obstacle you would indeed power through the turn with your third step but if a tight turn were immediately following the FC then you need to take care that you were still cueing decel via foot direction, body, etc. I hope that makes sense. I don't know too much about APHS or other systems but have seen the use of the opposite arm as a precue before. In some ways I would almost liken this to Greg's decel except I am guessing that you do have to be a bit further ahead with Derrett system to cue the decel ? Hope this makes sense. And a question for you too - would you be using your pre-cue to cause dog to decel to then enable you to get ahead for the FC as opposed to Derrett system where you have to actually get ahead first ?? (Hope that makes sense too) So many different ways to get around an agility course that's for sure :laugh:

The front cross hasn't changed - still has the same 3 feet pattern, as close as possible to next obstacle, same 3 cues to cue it, etc. What has 'changed' (and I use that term loosely) is the even more increased emphasis on positional cue (there has always been emphasis on PC in Derrett system, go back through the old DVD's - especially number 3 and it's still there ) but now PC practically trumps everything else, and he had some very cool exercises to teach it. Decel'ing into FC (one of the 3 cues of FC) has also been part of the system for a long time but something that most of us suck at (from the mouth of the burning rubber run like hell FC Queen, LOL) and this time there was also a lot of emphasis on getting us to actually show our dogs the difference between accel and decel when we run, rather than running the whole course at the same speed. The fact that most of us don't use decel correctly when reaching PC is something that I believe has caused a lot of non -Derrett handlers to have the belief that dogs don't get enough warning that a turn is coming up in the Derrett system, which is entirely the fault of how most of us run the course, not of the system itself. Greg doesn't like the term pre-cue, but decel is a bloody big pre-cue when applied correctly. Awesome seminar btw

Megan which session are you working ? If it is the Foundation session then there won't be any jumping but there will most likely be quite a bit in all the others, was last time.

I doubt it - too easy for people to burn copies and pass them onto others. Oooohhhh behave ! And stop posting when I'm drinking coffee, my computer is sick of wearing it Don't you mean 'back up their copies'?

There is a map on Bulla Agility Dogs website : www.bad.org.au

You will get there ! But it's easy to get so obsessed on wanting the tugging behaviour that it can have a negative impact on your training - been there, done that LOL. And 'working through it', although ideally what you want to do, can be something that you need to proceed with caution with kelpies as you can often get 'stuff you, don't want to play any more, taking my bat and ball and going home' :laugh: Just keep working on it AWAY from an agility context, remember that it can be a very long process to get the tugging behaviour that you want, and enjoy the ride along the way.... even if you have to use other rewards for a bit. Remember a reward is what the dog wants not necessarily what you want it to want. Personally I think things like shaping, trick training, playing lots of games where you really work on creating a dog that wants to work with you are a lot more valuable to your agility training than tugging - tugging is just the icing on the cake. There was a good article in CR a while back titled something like 'tug or not to tug' from memory which outlined both sides of the equation and raised some interesting points. If you subscribe maybe go back through some older issues and see if you can find it. And for the record, my BC tugs like a dream with anything, any time, anywhere ..... but we have a whole lot of other things that need work that I never had to worry about with my kelpies - so is just as much work but in different ways. It's all too easy to see results people get in the ring and think that they came by it 'easily' when no one else sees the struggles and hard work that you put in along the way. I have a new found respect for people who run super fast dogs, believe me ! Don't get discouraged, I know you are doing a good job, just focus on working WITH him (not the same as letting him walk all over you) and let that shape your training.

I want the T Shirt :laugh: So true. Kavik, I understand where you are coming from - I worship at the temple of Susan Garrett too and while I agree with her views and want my dogs to tug for the same reasons as you it is easy to obsess over it at times and lose sight of the big picture. As a generalisation, kelpies do not tug and retrieve as naturally as a lot of BC's do - having now trained both the BC has actually helped me understand my kelpies a lot better in the way that they learn and work. My older kelpie will now happily tug when asked to do so, plus he retrieves and will 'swap' back and forward between food and toys for rewards. However he is nine and it's only been the last 12 months or so that he has done this and through a lot of hard work. In the meantime he has had no trouble working for food rewards at agility and recently completed his ADM3 title. Although that's nothing really special, in a 'career' that's been marked by very long stretches of time off due to injury, he has been relatively successful in the times that he has been able to compete. One thing that helped my with his retrieve was to let him have a 'victory lap' with the toy first. This was the advice of a US trainer that I had a private lesson with a few years back and I have no idea why it works but it does. So I throw the toy, let him run around and do a few laps with it, then recall him. After that he brings it back straight away on subsequent turns. I know this could be considered letting him shape me, but you know what , it works and I am happy to accept it with him. (Wouldn't be happy if the BC did it though, LOL) A couple of other things that helped me were to stop thinking that it was actual tugging behaviour that I wanted, but to want interaction with a toy instead - not the same thing. He has always been happy to pounce on a toy but never liked the actual tugging part. Once I started using the play in agility warm ups the tugging just gradually started to happen. I never ask for a release from either of my kelpies when tugging, just reach down and remove the toy myself and then offer it again so the game can keep moving quickly. Having good training mechanics and quick transitions between repetitions also seems to be very important with kelpies. Both my kelpies are 'hit and miss' with the degree of tugging they are comfortable with at a trial. I try to gauge the situation when I first get them out and choose my rewards from there. Both are always happy to tug after a run, but sometimes not before and although I would prefer they did I can live with it - I have had some fast and focussed runs without a tug in sight at times too. I will also be doing things differently when I choose my next kelpie at some stage but I think I 'get' them a lot more now in regard to agility training than I did before and I certainly haven't lowered my expectations, just adjusted them to a better fit. Good luck and I look forward to hearing how your training goes.

I doubt that you would have been taught incorrect entries at a dedicated agility club, where most instructors would trial themselves. Which method of weaving were they teaching ? As others have said, dog's left shoulder goes into first gap - when you are talking about left and right hand weaving it refers to your position, rather than the dog - dog always goes in same side no matter what side you are on in relation to weave poles. When teaching 2x2's there is one point with 2 poles where you start doing extreme left hand entries where it looks as if the dog is going in the wrong way, especially if you don't visualise the end result of the poles down the reward line - but you mentioned using 3 poles? So assuming that's not what you are talking about? If you go onto the Vic. agility trials site at : www.agilitytrials.info/ there is a link to the rules (Button on the left hand side of the page) - always a good idea to print off and have a copy so you can refer to these if there is any confusion with what you are training. Maybe talk to your instructor about it too if you're not sure.

You're thinking of Sandra - yeah, she does an amazing job with her kelpie and if she happens to get an open flowing type course where she doesn't have to move too much, then he will give any dog here a run for the money. Awesome gamblers dog. I wasn't including her with the handlers who work from wheelchairs, but you're right, she would defintely have trouble negotiating stairs too, so good to hear there is another entrance if needed. Just how steep are these stairs out of curiousity if I do decide to enter. (Still procrastinating, I'm hopeless) Some of the descriptions posted on the agility list make them sound like the stairs from hell.

We have 2 in Victoria.

The original 'Red Cloud' was actually a kelpie cross that dominated the WA sheepdog scene in the 1920's. Definitely true about stories being passed on and getting changed - this from the Tony Parson's Kelpie book : 'Red Cloud became a legendary dog, larger than life and for a full ten years after his death, if the advertisements are to be believed, continued to sire a host of puppies.' Gotta love an Aussie legend !